I'm a bit confused by the lore tbh

[AtimZarr1]

6 hours ago, Quasar said:

For example, VEGA's entries for the Doom Hunter and the Doom Hunter Base state that the Doom Hunters were present on Earth 80 billion years ago, and that they were found and fought on Earth by the Sentinels who had established a colony there at the North Pole. However, Deag Ranak is very explicit in saying that the Agaddon Hunters were created *explicitly* to fight against the Sentinels and the Slayer during the "Unholy Crusades". This implies that the Slayer was present anywhere up to 80 billion years ago on this particular Earth... mind boggling. Some kind of time loop or time travel is almost required to explain that kind of aberration.

 

"Carbon dating of the remarkably well-preserved beasts suggests they are nearly 80 million years old, pre-dating all other known forms of complex Earth-based life.

Continuing the cyber-demonic experimentation that began on Mars, the Cultists study the Agaddon's potential for resurrection and cyber-augmentation. A similar program occurred at this location millennia ago, when Deag Priests (often cited as Hell Priests) bred the creatures and genetically modified them to function as 'Doom Hunters' - fearsome mutants designed to battle the Doom Slayer and his Night Sentinels during the Unholy Crusades on Argent D'Nur. Sentinel records corroborate this through their military texts, with many reports of these creatures among the ranks of the demonic forces assaulting the armies of the North during the Argenta civil war."

 

The initial use of DOOM Hunters as enemies of the Slayer occurred "millennia ago" while the original Aggaddon beasts themselves were on Earth "80 million years" ago. Codex source from the Wiki

 

So it seems the timeline is: Ancient Aggaddons -> DOOM Hunters -> DOOM Hunters 2020. The DOOM Hunter's own Codex entry states that they were known to the Night Sentinels as "lethal stalkers of the Metal Age" in ages past, so that could either be referring to Aggaddon's or the first DOOM Hunters, depending on when the Metal Age actually was.

 

6 hours ago, Quasar said:

Samuel Hayden claims that Hebeth is "from before your time with the Sentinels". If Hebeth is connected to Doom 3 in any way, that would also have to be false.

 

Hebeth itself isn't necessarily tied to Doom 3, but rather the idea that Sentinels colonized worlds like Eternal's Mars, opens the possibility they may have also colonized Doom 3's Mars at some point. The Martian city, like Hebeth, would be ancient and was built before the Slayer's time with the Sentinels, but the fall of the city, the markings of the Hero's carvings, and the building of the sarcophagus would all be done at a later point in time. This theory relies on the multiverse theory to be true, if that ends up false somehow, then this theory falls apart too. I do believe the "Skins" section of Eternal's artbook does make mention of a multiverse, but we'll see what's the extent of that.

 

6 hours ago, Quasar said:

If Samuel Hayden and VEGA are indeed the Seraphim (Samur Maykr) and the Maykr Father, neither seems to know about it until it literally becomes the case for VEGA. Perhaps this is part of the beginning of "loop," since now that VEGA literally is the Father, and Samuel Hayden brought him there, you could easily see events unfolding in the "future", which becomes the past, where Hayden removes VEGA, takes him away, and ends up using the Divinity Machine on the Slayer, who he remembers from, what to him, are previous events.

 

That's an interesting one. Would certainly go along with the whole "your fight is eternal" if it's just a time loop. I do think it's strange that VEGA and Hayden don't seem to know about their possible "origins". If anything, I found Hayden to act differently between 2016 and Eternal. He seemed a lot more agreeable and knowledgeable this time around, where if Eternal Hayden was in 2016, he'd probably already know the Crucible would be needed to close the Well. 2016 Hayden seemed more of a personification of the UAC, ex: justifying sacrifice, focused on recovering tech, unapologetic, and deceptive. All he knew about was producing Argent Energy and whatever knowledge came from the Helix Stone.

 

I do find it interesting that Hayden seems especially skilled in developing AI though, like VEGA and the unnamed systems used in the ARC. According to Hayden's 2016 background, there isn't any mention of AI studies in his youth:

 

"Born into the wealthy and powerful Hayden Family, he completed his Masters in Theoretical Physics at Oxford University. He showed prodigious talent in several fields, including thermodynamics, electromagnetic theory, and nuclear sciences." Wiki Source

 

It could be an omission, but his background makes sense in the context of his interests in Argent Energy. The background doesn't explain how he developed the "first autonomous AI system" on the Mars base.

[whatup876]

I think a problem with connecting the dots of old and new Doom is that, whether it's Doomguy not wearing his 64 armor, a boss visually based off the classic Barons/HK's bleeding red or the aspect ratio of his face, there's always going to be aspects of this lore that don't make sense and feel like accidental retcons.

That's probably why it's easy to go with a multiverse, since it is technically admitting Doom may not really work with lore.

 

Like, most of Revenant100's posts when pointing out some of id's mistakes are usually made for fun but still have some bit of truth in it.

 

Doom is that kind of series that always felt that the devs were just throwing what they thought would be cool.

Probably a surface level way to look at things, but Doom's universe was more of a "concept" or "idea".

[𝕲𝖗𝖊𝖊𝖓𝖙𝖎𝖌𝖊𝖗1]

10 hours ago, Quasar said:

Even within Doom Eternal itself there are some strange inconsistencies that might hint something bigger is going on than the narrators in the game (VEGA, Hayden, etc) know about.

 

For example, VEGA's entries for the Doom Hunter and the Doom Hunter Base state that the Doom Hunters were present on Earth 80 million years ago, and that they were found and fought on Earth by the Sentinels who had established a colony there at the North Pole. However, Deag Ranak is very explicit in saying that the Agaddon Hunters were created *explicitly* to fight against the Sentinels and the Slayer during the "Unholy Crusades". This implies that the Slayer was present anywhere up to 80 million years ago on this particular Earth... mind boggling. Some kind of time loop or time travel is almost required to explain that kind of aberration.

 

Samuel Hayden claims that Hebeth is "from before your time with the Sentinels". If Hebeth is connected to Doom 3 in any way, that would also have to be false.

 

If Samuel Hayden and VEGA are indeed the Seraphim (Samur Maykr) and the Maykr Father, neither seems to know about it until it literally becomes the case for VEGA. Perhaps this is part of the beginning of "loop," since now that VEGA literally is the Father, and Samuel Hayden brought him there, you could easily see events unfolding in the "future", which becomes the past, where Hayden removes VEGA, takes him away, and ends up using the Divinity Machine on the Slayer, who he remembers from, what to him, are previous events.

 

Crazy thoughts. Maybe they'll prove untrue if there are future entries, but we'll have to see.

 

I'm glad that Bethesda/new id/others are trying to add story to the Doom franchise, but for me, it's just "too much". In my head canon, Doom and Doom Eternal is about an ancient warrior that fought Hell and in the process became immortal and became the feared Doom Slayer. It's a simple story.

 

[Deleted_Account]

So all the demons are former humans. The souls of the damned are used to make argent energy while the empty human shells mutate into whichever demon form. I wonder what determines who turns into an Imp or Cacodemon etc?

[DadHoc]

19 minutes ago, User Name said:

So all the demons are former humans. The souls of the damned are used to make argent energy while the empty human shells mutate into whichever demon form. I wonder what determines who turns into an Imp or Cacodemon etc?

More than that, I wonder how demons were made before argent energy. Hell, it may even explain why they looked so different than new demons - the bastards were just chock full of Argent (or whatever the Hell energy component is called, I forget now).

 

Honestly, I never thought I'd say this about DOOM, but Eternal was way too stingy on lore IMO. Could've done with a bit more... cohesion? I'm just hoping they'll address these holes in DLC. I'd especially like something showing how Doomguy got all his new toys, or even just what happened between 2016 and Eternal. I was kinda disappointed to see that by the end, nothing was revealed about that timeframe, lol.

[TheRedTide]

4 hours ago, User Name said:

So all the demons are former humans. The souls of the damned are used to make argent energy while the empty human shells mutate into whichever demon form. I wonder what determines who turns into an Imp or Cacodemon etc?

There's probably some sort of intelligence behind all that. In DOOM, one of the lore collectibles stated that UAC's demonologists especulated that the Argent Wave didn't simply mutated humans at random, there was some sort of logic behind each mutation, almost as if there was a hidden intelligence govering all the process.

Now, back to the topic at hand:

DOOM established that the Elemental Wraiths were a source of Argent Energy. How come the Argenta people never realized this?

[DadHoc]

 

 

 

 

10 hours ago, TheRedTide said:

There's probably some sort of intelligence behind all that.

So, some sort of central, Satan-like figure? Eternal confirms there's specialized devils or whatever in Hell, such as Kalibas, so I wouldn't doubt it.

man, I really need to hunker down and read all of the lore pickups of both games

[Mortrixs19]

On 3/27/2020 at 8:09 AM, The Doommer said:

Time travel? Makes a bit more sense, but how does Doomguy end up going back 80 and more billions ago?!

 

Probably because Time in Argent D' Nur is different. When doomguy stayed in Hell he was captured and stayed in Argent D' Nur since Argenta is completely different dimension that means that maybe time is different too, let's say that 1 day in earth is like 1000 years in Argenta or something.

[Bauul]

14 hours ago, TheRedTide said:

DOOM established that the Elemental Wraiths were a source of Argent Energy. How come the Argenta people never realized this?

 

Wasn't it the Betrayer's last act to give the Hell Priests access to the Wraiths? And the Kahn Maykr only subsequently fused the Wraith'a energy and Hell energy to create the Well? If that's the case, the Night Sentinels were basically destroyed around the time the Wraiths were taken, so any Argenta people left were already in the sway of the demons.

[Job]

For those confused, here you go . 

 

 

[The Doommer]

2 hours ago, Job said:

For those confused, here you go . 

 

 

Does not answer the time jump between D64 and D16.

Does not answer how we can kill IoS in Doom II without Crucible

Does not answer earth's trust to UAC after what happened.

 

But I understand that's the best you could do.

Thanks

[AtimZarr1]

2 hours ago, The Doommer said:

Does not answer the time jump between D64 and D16.

 

As far as I understand, things make more sense if we assume that D64 and D16 exist in two separate universes with their own timelines.

 

2 hours ago, The Doommer said:

Does not answer how we can kill IoS in Doom II without Crucible

 

His weak spot, the brain, was exposed and vulnerable to direct rocket hits. Or maybe the Icon wasn't really dead and instead went into a dormant state. Doom 2016's Codex did mention that the Icon was "sleeping" until the Call of Ages.

 

2 hours ago, The Doommer said:

Does not answer earth's trust to UAC after what happened.

 

Again, it makes more sense by assuming two separate universes. In the new 2016 universe, this is the UAC's first screw-up.

 

Even in the Classic universe, the UAC tended to cover-up incidents as mentioned in Doom 64's opening text in the manual.

[The Doommer]

6 minutes ago, AtimZarr1 said:

UAC tended to cover-up incidents as mentioned in Doom 64's opening text in the manual.

Yes, but earth was attacked before and there was no way of covering that up.

 

But maybe the alternative universe/timeline is the best assumption until we get a proper explanation.

Still though, how did he travel to a different universe/timeline?

[AtimZarr1]

1 hour ago, The Doommer said:

Yes, but earth was attacked before and there was no way of covering that up.

 

Although I don't think the general population knew that it was the UAC's fault that caused the invasion on Earth. The organization certainly evaded harsh punishment since they continued operations in Final Doom and Doom 64.

 

1 hour ago, The Doommer said:

Still though, how did he travel to a different universe/timeline?

 

The popular theory is that Hell is a bridge between universes/timelines. Eternal keeps it vague since even the Sentinels didn't know how Doomguy reached their home.

[Quasar]

13 hours ago, AtimZarr1 said:

The organization certainly evaded harsh punishment since they continued operations in Final Doom

If nationalization isn't considered a harsh punishment in that universe, I guess. Both Final Doom episodes suggest the UAC was reorganized by the government. Plutonia in particular explains it was repurposed into an organization to research technologies to use to prevent further Hell invasions.

[whatup876]

Before Eternal, where there any theories about how the Sentinel could've been related to Heaven?

I wonder how anyone would feel if that was the case.

Angelic knights may not be new, but i think Doomguy joining demon slaying angel knights that serve under god could appeal to some people.

You have how the Mark of the Slayer technically resembles both a cross/crucifix and a sword, so i can see some other symbol that resembles both a cross and a sword even more.

There was Empyrian from 2016's MP, with a name based off "Empyrean" and looks Heavenly.

NS living in a world that mixes "ancient"/fantasy and technology, which means if that was a case in Heaven, it would parallel Hell.

One could also see King Novik as God. (I always imagined that God or angels in Doom could have been blue skinned and glowy)

[AtimZarr1]

17 hours ago, Quasar said:

If nationalization isn't considered a harsh punishment in that universe, I guess. Both Final Doom episodes suggest the UAC was reorganized by the government. Plutonia in particular explains it was repurposed into an organization to research technologies to use to prevent further Hell invasions.

 

You're right, I checked Plutonia's story again and somehow missed the first sentence.

 

3 hours ago, whatup876 said:

Before Eternal, where there any theories about how the Sentinel could've been related to Heaven?

I wonder how anyone would feel if that was the case.

Angelic knights may not be new, but i think Doomguy joining demon slaying angel knights that serve under god could appeal to some people. 

You have how the Mark of the Slayer technically resembles both a cross/crucifix and a sword, so i can see some other symbol that resembles both a cross and a sword even more.

There was Empyrian from 2016's MP, with a name based off "Empyrean" and looks Heavenly.

NS living in a world that mixes "ancient"/fantasy and technology, which means if that was a case in Heaven, it would parallel Hell.

One could also see King Novik as God. (I always imagined that God or angels in Doom could have been blue skinned and glowy)

 

Back in 2016, Night Sentinel armor certainly evoked crusader designs, though I don't think anyone was speculating on a supposed connection to Heaven outright.

 

I think the Slayer being a warrior of Angels and Heaven would be cool, but it'd be a bit hard to go to at this point since it seems Urdak and Khan Maykr are the Eternal's equivalent of Heaven and God respectively, and those didn't turn out to be so nice. The Seraphim spoken of in 2016's lore turned out to be a rebel rather than a representative.

 

I'm curious about Empyrian's relevance in lore (if it's still a consideration), since it looks like a heavenly place but isn't anything like Urdak. The environment's imagery suggests it belonged to the Sentinels. Perhaps some Sentinels sought to build monuments in the skies to honor the Maykrs.

 

King Novik certainly isn't a God, he's just one Sentinel king among many before him. Other kings mentioned in Sentinel lore include King Roan and King Ormeros.

 

 

[The Doommer]

10 hours ago, whatup876 said:

One could also see King Novik as God.

Obviously not the intention of the devs though.

[Zemini]

I think within Hell time works much differently.  So in theory one could open a portal into hell and use it as a gateway to travel through at least 5 dimensions of time and space.  Pseudoscience!

 

So if it is another time line, then the final boss in Doom 2 was just a normal titan before it got turned into the Icon of Sin.

[Hunting4r2d2]

I think Doom Eternal's lore focused a lot more on expanding the universe rather than providing answers for everything. I feel like this done to give id more directions to take the series in future DLC and entries. 

11 hours ago, AtimZarr1 said:

I think the Slayer being a warrior of Angels and Heaven would be cool, but it'd be a bit hard to go to at this point since it seems Urdak and Khan Maykr are the Eternal's equivalent of Heaven and God respectively, and those didn't turn out to be so nice. The Seraphim spoken of in 2016's lore turned out to be a rebel rather than a representative.

To me, it didn't seem like Urdak itself was evil, but rather the Khan Maykr became corrupted by hell and was their alliance to extend her rule. VEGA/the Father seems to be more akin to God, and he is a much more benevolent character than Khan Maykr. 

[Linguica]

There's no evidence of a real "heaven" in the game. The Khan Maykr beneath her armor is an archvile alien. Seems to me that the Maykrs are an alien race that developed superadvanced tech and were able to extend their lifespans indefinitely and developed Argent technology to that end (so basically what Hayden was doing but on a larger scale).

[Taurus Daggerknight]

Shared @Linguica's assessment. The Khan Maker and her "angels" are quite evidently little more than sentient AI's by the lore's descriptions...who then got carried away with their own power, ego and desperation to continue existing. They are emphatically false gods, who didn't even know about Earth to begin with, let alone being deity's with any right to bring about the apocalypse like Khan Maker keeps trying to suggest.  

[AtimZarr1]

4 hours ago, Linguica said:

There's no evidence of a real "heaven" in the game. The Khan Maykr beneath her armor is an archvile alien. Seems to me that the Maykrs are an alien race that developed superadvanced tech and were able to extend their lifespans indefinitely and developed Argent technology to that end (so basically what Hayden was doing but on a larger scale).

 

"This is Urdak, the home world of the Maykrs. A brief age analysis of the structures and architecture here indicates that this world is older than any other in our database. Similarities can also be drawn to multiple pan-galactic religions, indicating that the Maykr's influence was not limited to Argent D'Nur, and that over eons their influence has spread across the galaxy, and potentially the universe. Some imagery is akin to religious icons in the Orion-Cygnus arm of the Milky Way, an area which includes Earth. The name Urdak is common tongue in the Maykr language, but can be approximately translated to the word for Paradise or Heaven in hundreds of different languages, further cementing the theory that the Maykrs have had a religious impact on mortal beings for millions of years..." - Urdak codex entry

 

From this we learn that the Maykr's world is older than any other, their influence spans the galaxy/universe, their imagery is akin to religious icons on Earth, Urdak translates to Paradise/Heaven in hundreds of different languages, and they've had a religious impact on mortals for millions of years. As far as I know, there isn't any hint or mention of any "true" divine force beyond Urdak. I think Eternal's take on Heaven is that there is no "real Heaven" in the Doom universe. The Maykrs, who appear as angels in many worlds and beliefs, are actually alien pretenders behind their white armor and golden wings, who thrive on mortal sacrifice for their own prosperity.

 

If a real Heaven still does exist in the Doom universe, it would essentially be mostly unknown and unheard of, since the religions (including those of Earth apparently) in Eternal's codex were influenced by the alien Maykrs and not by that real Heaven.

[Thermal Lance]

On 3/26/2020 at 3:43 PM, The Doommer said:

So, Slayer is Doomguy, no issues there but:

 

1. For Icon of Sin, Khan Makyr resurrects him (Meaning the same one you fought in Doom II). Here's the thing though: Samuel Hayden states that he can only be killed by the crucible sword. How then we killed him in Doom II, there was no crucible. Also if the crucible is removed, the dead Titan in Taras Nabad will resurrect. Meaning there's no way he can be killed without a crucible, even if the OG IoS wasn't Velen's son.

 

2. Doomguy was a marine in UAC security. How long has passed that UAC does not remember him? It implies ages has passed (Doom 2016 Slayer's testaments and VEGA referring to Slayer's SSG as a relic from your past) but then how you have the same shotgun, SSG, Plasmagun and BFG weapon types after ages? How UAC is still there? Generally speaking, how much time has actually passed?

 

3. If an invasion of earth was happened before, how did earth trust UAC again?

 

Maybe these are my misunderstandings of the lore, but I'd be open to any opinion

1) The game was never meant or expected to have a lore. So, try not to dig too much in OG Doom inconsistencies in this regard.

 

2) He was only a grunt. A marine. And his whole squad was most likely slaughtered. How many countries are led by people that can remember the name and face of every single soldiers under their command?

 

3) Perhaps the UAC has a stronger political influence than we are shown ingame. Who knows... But, then, it still is Doom so I'd rather suggest not trying to go for the deeper stuff. 

[The Doommer]

1 minute ago, Thermal Lance said:

The game was never meant or expected to have a lore. So, try not to dig too much in OG Doom inconsistencies in this regard.

Used to not have, but it does now...

 

1 minute ago, Thermal Lance said:

How many countries are led by people that can remember the name and face of every single soldiers under their command?

They tried to find out who he was during his stasis. It is made clear during the audio logs in ARC Complex.

 

3 minutes ago, Thermal Lance said:

But, then, it still is Doom so I'd rather suggest not trying to go for the deeper stuff. 

I get that you don't care about the lore, but doesn't make others not want to care too.

[The Doommer]

5 hours ago, Linguica said:

There's no evidence of a real "heaven" in the game.

I think Urdak was called sort of Heaven in the codex page

Also, it does make sense since the Makyr drones have to obey the Khan Makyr.

 

Since priests were deformed when became hell ones, she might also been sort of deformed as well

 

 

[Thermal Lance]

10 minutes ago, The Doommer said:

Used to not have, but it does now...

 

They tried to find out who he was during his stasis. It is made clear during the audio logs in ARC Complex.

 

I get that you don't care about the lore, but doesn't make others not want to care too.

Used to not have. Then don't dig into the inconsistencies since its pretty obvious there is going to be some. 

 

Perhaps his trip through hell changed him way more to a point those scans wouldnt help. Or perhaps what the sentinels did to him. Just a wild guess on my part.

 

I do enjoy the idea of lore. But finding inconsistencies with the original games is normal and to be expected.

[The Doommer]

2 minutes ago, Thermal Lance said:

Then don't dig into the inconsistencies since its pretty obvious there is going to be some.

Correct, but these are not huge plot holes. They can be explained. Doom 64 new Episode tried to do so at least.

 

3 minutes ago, Thermal Lance said:

perhaps what the sentinels did to him.

But it's said that they see him as a human, but altered.

He's not scientifically a demigod.

[Thermal Lance]

11 minutes ago, The Doommer said:

Correct, but these are not huge plot holes. They can be explained. Doom 64 new Episode tried to do so at least.

 

But it's said that they see him as a human, but altered.

He's not scientifically a demigod.

I'd rather accept those as inconsistencies without answer than have to accept that great Slayer went on a rampage to avenge his pet rabbit. The little lore the OG have is peppered with non-sense. 

 

He's perhaps not scientifically a demi-god but I never intended to say that either. I'm just assuming that going to hell and back is surely going to leave a mark on the individual. The most simple answer would be that UAC does a horrible job at keeping records. Or said records were destroyed during the invasion.

[The Doommer]

1 minute ago, Thermal Lance said:

I'd rather accept those as inconsistencies without answer than have to accept that great Slayer went on a rampage to avenge his pet rabbit.

I mean, Doomguy did that on Ultimate Doom E4 and it wasn't a big deal...

 

2 minutes ago, Thermal Lance said:

The most simple answer would be that UAC does a horrible job at keeping records. Or said records were destroyed during the invasion.

Makes sense.

 

But Let's wait for a proper answer I guess