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MassiveEdgelord

What are the biggest misconceptions regarding DOOM?

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6 hours ago, cybdmn said:

Too much Jump n Run stuff, CoD like weapon upgrade stuff, which detracts from the core gameplay, too much Painkiller-like arena stuff.

[..]

One aspect of Doom was to strip the game down to the core, drop out everything which detracts from the action-oriented gameplay. Weapon upgrades are the opposite of that. The only thing which could considered a kind of an upgrade is the backpack, but then again, you just pick it up, and add the ability to carry more ammo for every weapon, no need to stop the game flow, to fiddle around with any kind of upgrade menu. [..] the opposite of what id have done for the original concept of the game.

Am I allowed to agree with this or will I be castrated? I agree with the subjective aspects of this, and the claim about Doom being "stripped down to the core gameplay" is absolutely true from a historical perspective. They specifically scrapped many of Tom Halls ideas that would have had the player looking through menus at upgrades and special items and all of that stuff. It probably still would have been a good game, damn good - but the "purification process" benefited the final product, imo.

 

Not enjoying the process of equipping upgrades and generally doing things in a pause menu has no relation to the kind of joy one gets from keycard hunting, at least not to me. It's perfectly possible to enjoy the calmer, more subtle elements of Classic Doom without thinking "gee, I'd really like to be messing around with upgrades in a pause menu right now!"

 

I'm not saying gameplay concepts that require a menu or whatever are inherently bad. Absolutely not. I completely acknowledge that some - hell, most probably - love finding little items and reading about them, decided what upgrades to apply and what ones not to apply, and just generally having fun with the layers of customization and stuff that it adds to the experience. That kind of stuff just doesn't do that much for me in particular, and I guess cybdmn feels the same way.

 

I'm happy to have such features in if it gives the game a wider appeal though. For me it's a minor inconvenience in an overall fun experience, for others it's a huge part of the enjoyment, so that's fine. I just have a preference for fundamentally more simple games in general.

 

I'm never going to be looking at a menu as part of the gameplay experience in a Mario game, or a Street Fighter game, or the old Dooms, and those "simple to jump in" sorts of games are what I enjoy most. Yet there are other fantastic games where you can spend freaking hours in the menus, and it's actually damn fun in it's own way. Oblivion and Mass Effect come to mind, I spent forever just reading shit and looking through the menus, equipping different items, etc and enjoyed it as well. But, it's understandable - makes perfect sense, even - that some Doomers of the bygone era are not going to be into that kind of thing at all.

 

It seems weird that even raising the point about "core Doom gameplay" gets such strong responses from people. Once again, the "De-Tom Hallification" of the original Doom halfway through development shows that Romero and Carmack were very clearly in a "strip it down to the fundamental fun bits" kind of headspace when making the game. Naturally, the change they made turned the game into something exalted among players looking for something on the "simple" or more straightforward side in terms of gameplay.

 

EDIT: Oh yeah, "locked arena" fights can get a little repetitive and dull as well. Give me that incidental combat all day erryday. It's not just Doom 2016 that does the arena fight thing though (and I'm guessing Eternal does as well), it's actually one of the most "meh" elements of some otherwise amazing modern wads. Most people seem to love it though, so it's just one more opinion against the grain. So sue me! It doesn't mean I don't think highly of the new Dooms, either. You're allowed to point out things you don't like and still love the product overall!

Edited by Doomkid

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19 minutes ago, Doomkid said:

EDIT: Oh yeah, "locked arena" fights can get a little repetitive and dull as well. Give me that incidental combat all day erryday. It's not just Doom 2016 that does the arena fight thing though (and I'm guessing Eternal does as well), it's actually one of the most "meh" elements of some otherwise amazing modern wads. Most people seem to love it though, so it's just one more opinion against the grain. So sue me! It doesn't mean I don't think highly of the new Dooms, either. You're allowed to point out things you don't like and still love the product overall!

I must admit locked arena fights made me stop playing several wads, when it becomes just strafe, let them infight, spam weapon, it's boring, but the wads are praised anyway. Although at least they have other fun parts if you take that away, and modern wads made by experienced mappers tend to look extremely pretty for Doom, which I can't have enough of.

 

That out of the way, I don't mind people not liking Eternal but dear God they never shut up about it, this thread just became a "People believing that is a doom game is a misconception" fight, we already have the comments on every Doom Eternal video and post talking about the same thing, it's tiring me out. It's both the people that love and hate the game, we should stop fighting so much about opinions, it's subjective, nobody will win.

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7 hours ago, cybdmn said:

Why? Because it is too far away from everything what defined Doom in the 90ies. 

So... Its. Its not Doom because its not a carbon copy of the original with flashy graphics... 

Thanks for confirming.

 

Also another variation of "I dont like it therefore its Call of Duty/Fortnite"

 

Classic Doom is known for its simple gameplay and its a great product because of its simplicity but its been 25 years and there,s nothing wrong brining a new approach to the gameplay.

Some love simplistic run and gun aspects while there are people who love to fiddle with upgrades.

Edited by jazzmaster9

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On 3/31/2020 at 11:14 AM, Mr. Freeze said:

That Doom is pure action. Doom has three pillars of gameplay: Action, Suspense and Exploration. Mindless shooting isn't Doom, that's Serious Sam. 

And that is what I would call a misconception regarding Serious Sam!


 

 

 

One misconception that has always bugged me is that Doom music is always heavy metal blaring in your ears all the time. That's probably why I didn't find Doom (2016)'s soundtrack as amazing as most other people seem to find it. (I think Eternal's soundtrack was a significant improvement, though.) As virtually everything there was metal (or at least within that ballpark), apart from a choir piece or two, and most of the "Calm; Undetected by enemies" stuff that most people probably wouldn't wanna sit and listen to, anyway.

I distinctly recall reading something about how when Bobby Prince was hired to compose Doom's soundtrack, that he was told to do absolutely nothing but metal. However, being the music expert in the room, he knew full well that not every level would fit that mood, and so, basically going against his orders, he made some more haunting and eerie pieces without a trace of metal, most of which ended up being used. Sign of Evil (best known as the E1M8: Phobos Anomaly music) has long been my favorite Classic Doom music piece. It's dripping with haunting atmosphere, and gives off such a foreboding tone of dread that has such a profound effect on the level it's introduced in.

 

As such, Doom II's soundtrack is mostly this lukewarm middleground that often doesn't sound so good in vanilla to me, but the melodies allow for fan-made covers to sound quite excellent. Heck, if I recall correctly, Opening to Hell (Map 30: Icon of Sin) was originally going to be the first game's title theme; playing on the main menu. Still no idea why they dropped it and used an echoey sound effect instead.

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3 hours ago, Doomkid said:

It seems weird that even raising the point about "core Doom gameplay" gets such strong responses from people. Once again, the "De-Tom Hallification" of the original Doom halfway through development shows that Romero and Carmack were very clearly in a "strip it down to the fundamental fun bits" kind of headspace when making the game. Naturally, the change they made turned the game into something exalted among players looking for something on the "simple" or more straightforward side in terms of gameplay.

 

Removing features, to streamline the gameplay was what id have done back then, it was some kind of their philosophy, not just for Doom. If you compare the original ideas for Wolfenstein 3-D with the final game, or things like the removal of a "use" key in in Quake. They did this in a very sophisticated way. Doom looks simpler than it is, thats why it is so often labelled as a mindless shooter and so often compared to games like Serious Sam, where the gameplay often is streamlined even more. What makes Doom makes more complex than it seems to be, is the different monsters and their combination and the weapon balance, how it enforces your decisions. Your ability to "crowd control" and prioritize which monsters to kill first, which weapon to use, your movement and your management of ammo and health. But makes it comfortably for the player, by removing everything thats detract you from these tasks.

 

"De-Tom Hallification", i like that. Back when Doom 3 was released, i instantly got the feeling, that they tried to add stuff from Tom Halls Doom Bible, which the scrapped when developing Doom itself, and thought that they better have left that stuff out.

 

And yes, as i stated before, and you too, this view is more or less completely subjective. But otherwise, we're in the internet, where you have to have the "right" opinion.

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2 hours ago, jazzmaster9 said:

Classic Doom is known for its simple gameplay and its a great product because of its simplicity but its been 25 years and there,s nothing wrong brining a new approach to the gameplay.

 

Doom has no simple gameplay, thats exactly what so many people don't understand. Its complexity just isn't based on obvious features, and that's the reason why we are still talking about it 25+ years later.

 

I did not say that a new approach is wrong, for Doom it just did not work for me. Read again: for me. Got it?

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12 minutes ago, cybdmn said:

 

Doom has no simple gameplay, thats exactly what so many people don't understand. Its complexity just isn't based on obvious features, and that's the reason why we are still talking about it 25+ years later.

 

I did not say that a new approach is wrong, for Doom it just did not work for me.

the gameplay of the original Doom is very simple, in fact that's one of it's strengths. you have A limited set of weapons with monsters that are very predicable in terms of pattern, the beauty is in monster placement and mixing monsters in groups.

 

but of course this is the 90s and gaming has changed since then,

not liking it is totally fine. but I don't see how adding new features and mechanics makes something Not Doom.

It's like adding RPG elements and open ended levels in Symphony of the Night makes it Not Castlevania, because "thats not how it was done in CV1, 3 and 4"

12 minutes ago, cybdmn said:

Read again: for me. Got it?

no im good.

Edited by jazzmaster9

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48 minutes ago, Taurus Daggerknight said:

Misconception: Doom is about THIS SPECIFIC MECHANIC THING RIGHT HERE.

 

No. Doom is series about shooting demons from Hell. That is all. Anything else is a serious over-think of what is otherwise a  pretty simple premise. Some takes on it added depth, some takes took away depth for simplicity. Some takes were BOARD GAMES, others were PHONE RPG'S. Some were neo-survival horror shooters about terror, some were blitz paced Saturday morning cartoons about UBER VIOLENCE. The common thread; Demons from Hell and a guy with a gun. Also teleporters. 

 

(Yes, I know the original book series and first movie didn't do demons from Hell. They were also called out and generally derided for this reason). 

FINALLY

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On 3/31/2020 at 5:18 AM, Doomkid said:

It’s a common myth that Doom didn’t have mouse support early on. In reality, the mouse has always been usable by default.

 

Not a myth, just a misunderstanding: there is no free mouse look in Doom. The mouse support that was always there was something like "move mouse forward" - "walk forward", if I remember that right.

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1 minute ago, Tetzlaff said:

 

Not a myth, just a misunderstanding: there is no free mouse look in Doom. The mouse support that was always there was something like "move mouse forward" - "walk forward", if I remember that right.

yeah looking up and down is not possible in vanilla Doom, only looking left, right and moving forward.

 

This is what gave Romero such an advantage when he played Deathmatch with Midway guys during Doom 64's development.

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9 hours ago, Doomkid said:

It seems weird that even raising the point about "core Doom gameplay" gets such strong responses from people. Once again, the "De-Tom Hallification" of the original Doom halfway through development shows that Romero and Carmack were very clearly in a "strip it down to the fundamental fun bits" kind of headspace when making the game. Naturally, the change they made turned the game into something exalted among players looking for something on the "simple" or more straightforward side in terms of gameplay.

 

I don't think that's the issue since no-one is denying the core essence of Doom. It stirs aggressive responses mainly when its used as a critique of the new Doom games, as if they forgot the basics completely, which they did not, and how others are ready to get up in arms against them because they're not classic Doom in HD 2.0. It looks like history is repeating, just like Doom 3 was, and still is, divisive among community members, the new Doom games are now stirring the exact same reactions, which I honestly don't understand, how they can be seen as such abhorrent creations that make living so much worse.

 

By that definition, other franchises which received a similar treatment have long stopped being about what they used to be once too - so, Castlevania SOTN or even better, the Lords of Shadows series are "Not Castlevania" because they're nothing like CV1 and 2, SW2013 and SW2 are "Not SW" because they're nothing like SW classic, or Fallout 3/New Vegas are "not Fallout" because they're nothing like Fallout 1 and 2. And the list can really go on, but these are the easiest examples.

 

Again, my gripe is not with people not liking the new takes or even WANTING them to love the games, no, it's just the argument that they're "not X" looks increasingly more childish and entitled the more it shows up. Yes, I get their view point, but at the same time, I also kinda don't. Hence why no-one will ever be able to define what game X is, and what it's not. We might like to pretend otherwise, but we do not.

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10 hours ago, banjiepixel said:

...Doom Eternal is FPS-game version of God of War/Devil May Cry.

So that explains the similarities I felt, I recall watching a Doom 2016 interview with Marty and Hugo where they said they drew inspiration from the Hack and Slash genre (was it the one from Noclip?) from such games as Bayonetta and Devil May Cry for the combat loop.

23 minutes ago, seed said:

Again, my gripe is not with people not liking the new takes or even WANTING them to love the games, no, it's just the argument that they're "not X" looks increasingly more childish and entitled the more it shows up.

2nd this, Lords of Shadow was still a success and arguably the best 3D Castlevania to date, seems this scenario keeps getting repeated with a lot of franchises.

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@seed It sounds like it’s more of a semantic argument then. I agree that saying the new Dooms are “not Doom” is silly too, because it by definition is part of the series. I think a lot of the time people say something like it’s “not Doom” what they mean is that they either don’t like the new additions to the formula, or feel the formula itself has been changed too much away from what they prefer.

 

Its funny you brought up SOTN - despite thinking that game is pretty badass, I feel it changed the direction of the series for the worse overall. 1, 4 and Drac X are “peak Castlevania” for me personally. I’d never say the newer ones are “not Castlevania” though because they are, it’s right there in the title. They sure as heck aren’t Mario games, or any other series - they’re CV games, just CV games that I don’t like as much as the older ones! 

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Probably already mentioned, but that doom was never about horror. Some of my favorite maps are the slower ones with good atmosphere and tension. While i really dont like the power-fantasy interpratation current ID has on the original games (thx hugo martin), i think Doom 2019 and Eternal are great games. Doom 3 went the opposite way but it's also great imo. I would love if ID released some games running in a simpler engine though

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8 minutes ago, Doomkid said:

@seed It sounds like it’s more of a semantic argument then. I agree that saying the new Dooms are “not Doom” is silly too, because it by definition is part of the series. I think a lot of the time people say something like it’s “not Doom” what they mean is that they either don’t like the new additions to the formula, or feel the formula itself has been changed too much away from what they prefer.

 

Its funny you brought up SOTN - despite thinking that game is pretty badass, I feel it changed the direction of the series for the worse overall. 1, 4 and Drac X are “peak Castlevania” for me personally. I’d never say the newer ones are “not Castlevania” though because they are, it’s right there in the title. They sure as heck aren’t Mario games, or any other series - they’re CV games, just CV games that I don’t like as much as the older ones! 

 

Precisely! Now here's someone who finally gets it :D .

 

We may, or may not like the direction our favorite series take past a certain amount of time, because these changes may not suit everyone's preferences - and with long-running series, it is virtually impossible to please everyone. But "no longer being X" is just a bad argument usually because most of the time it easily translates to "it's not what I wanted from it/it doesn't fit my vision/subjective definition of what it should be, so it's unworthy of the title now" (also speaking in absolutes as if we're some great authority over the IP).

 

There are games I feel similarly too, but I would never dare to call them "not X anymore" just because I don't like them as much as the older games, or at all in some cases.

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4 hours ago, sluggard said:

So that explains the similarities I felt, I recall watching a Doom 2016 interview with Marty and Hugo where they said they drew inspiration from the Hack and Slash genre (was it the one from Noclip?) from such games as Bayonetta and Devil May Cry for the combat loop.

 

It is pretty clear and Doom 2016 level structure would had worked better and would had been less repetitive if they wouldn't have been so careful not to change too many gameplay mechanics into character action game direction, but I can understand that they didn't want to alienate players of normal first person shooters, Doom 2016 walked so Eternal could run. Some people seem to disagree with new mechanics of the Doom Eternal because they aren't used to playing that style of a game, especially as a first person shooter. I wasn't big fan of Doom 2016's glory kill mechanic but that was more because the gameplay had too much focus on that and there were very little else to do, it needed other mechanics to add more variety to the combat. Devil May Cry's rather simple gameplay structure works because player has so many options when in combat and good reasons to use those options.

 

Right now, the Doom series needs to do something different from other FPS games like they're currently doing with Eternal, if something Doom is known for, it is from being groudbreaking FPS games. Nobody wants to play a Doom game that plays like every other first person shooter in the market.

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On 3/31/2020 at 5:08 PM, Redneckerz said:

That Brutal DOOM is the original DOOM game.

Are there people who think like that?

Really now?

 

On 3/31/2020 at 9:10 PM, cybdmn said:

but they aren't Doom.

They are way more Doom than Doom 3 is...

 

On 3/31/2020 at 9:36 PM, jazzmaster9 said:

because its not a carbon copy of the original with flashy graphics?

IDK what's with people being like this...

Go play the Doom remastered if you think you need that kind of game...

 

Though I'd love a Doom Remastered project from the community...

Doom 2016 and Doom Eternal are the most close games to OG Doom & Doom II that you can ever find atm

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A common misconception is that a Doom game isn't a Doom game. 

 

Spoiler alert, every single main entry in the Doom series is a Doom game. Whether the games decided to change up some mechanics or not, the core is still there:

 

-Shoot Monster

-Walk through level

 

Thats it, thats pretty much what Doom has always been at the core. Sure some games have been more linear than others, or decided to give the player upgrades, etc.

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1 hour ago, The Doommer said:

IDK what's with people being like this...

Go play the Doom remastered if you think you need that kind of game...

 

And i don't know what's with people like you.

Go play Doom Eternal, and stop discussing with people which have a different opinion.

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1 hour ago, Doominator2 said:

Spoiler alert, every single main entry in the Doom series is a Doom game. Whether the games decided to change up some mechanics or not, the core is still there:

 

-Shoot Monster

-Walk through level

 

Wait, this means, Blood, Painkiller, and various others are Doom games as well? Maybe you should think again, what could qualify a game being a Doom game.

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13 hours ago, seed said:

But "no longer being X" is just a bad argument

 

 

For the third time, it IS an opinion, which is as valid as yours.

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18 hours ago, Tetzlaff said:

 

Not a myth, just a misunderstanding: there is no free mouse look in Doom. The mouse support that was always there was something like "move mouse forward" - "walk forward", if I remember that right.

 

I've seen people from other parts of the web decrying mouse players as "cheaters", seemingly unaware that the game allows mouse movement, so this particularly dumb myth is alive and well I'm afraid.

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By this point the same things are repeated over and over again, can you all just leave it there?

Anyway, another myth about Doom, "GZDoom is just vanilla Doom in HD". A lot of people seem to believe that.

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A lot of "retro" style shooters coming out over the past decade, not to mention 2016 and Doom Eternal, have somehow confused people into thinking that the default state of Doom was a slaughter wad; big fights in centralized locations with you fighting giant waves of enemies

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3 minutes ago, Reaverbot said:

A lot of "retro" style shooters coming out over the past decade, not to mention 2016 and Doom Eternal, have somehow confused people into thinking that the default state of Doom was a slaughter wad; big fights in centralized locations with you fighting giant waves of enemies

Can't blame them on that though, so many popular wads are slaughterwads, aren't they?

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3 hours ago, Senor500 said:

Can't blame them on that though, so many popular wads are slaughterwads, aren't they?

 

There are absolutely lots of popular slaughtermaps, but there are endless amounts of popular conventional maps focused around more traditional approaches to level design as well.

 

Over the past few years people are starting to get it right finally though. The past five years have been full of lots of really good classic-styled fps games.

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That Doom (and classic fps in general) is a mindless shooting gallery with no strategy, tactics or intelligence required. To be fair, I think people make it worse when they say stuff like "I play Doom when I want to shut my brain off and just kill stuff!" No, you do not, because you wouldn't be playing anything remotely resembling Doom - it'd be a clicker "game" or some other equally vacuous piece of software that has the gall to call itself a "video game".

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