Satanic Infestation Open IWAD Project (CURRENT VERSION v0.0.5)

[sergeirocks100]

i appreciate your legal concerns, but i am trying to keep the project from looking too much like Doom, i just believe i can do it without looking substantially different from Doom, like Freedoom is, i'm trying to keep it in between Doom and Freedoom, and i don't mean to make it seem like i think my project is a cheap bootleg of Doom, it's just that a lot of people say that it's like a "cheap bootleg" or "chinese clone" of Doom, and i'm not going to be able to satisfy these complaints and maintain the goal of the project at the same time, and yes, Freedoom can use Doom map packs, but there are plenty of map packs that simply don't work too well in Freedoom's spirit and enviroment, and i know it has to look different to avoid legal issues, i just don't think it has to look as different as it does, if i didn't think i could maintain a balance between "too close to the source material" and "too distant from the source material", i wouldn't be working on this project right now, and i do think that some of my assets are a bit too close to Doom, and i'm trying to change that, i just don't think that they have to be as distant from Doom as Freedoom is for that to be accomplished

[Redneckerz]

1 hour ago, sergeirocks100 said:

i appreciate your legal concerns, but i am trying to keep the project from looking too much like Doom, i just believe i can do it without looking substantially different from Doom, like Freedoom is, i'm trying to keep it in between Doom and Freedoom,

And that's exactly the slippery slope that is pointed out by various people.

• FreeDoom gets by because it is substantially different enough from Doom,
• Your project is not substantially different enough from Doom.

You are trying to skirt towards the edge of the sun when your space vehicle is the Apollo 13. You may get home, but the damage is significant. Too significant worth the cost.

I feel this consistently gets missed, because you continue to reiterate that your project isn't a cheap bootleg of Doom, despite you essentially stating the same thing and other, more experienced people in the field stating the exact same thing aswell.

 

If it looks like a cheap bootleg of Doom, it works like a cheap bootleg of Doom, and it quacks like a cheap bootleg of Doom... then it is a cheap bootleg of Doom.

 

I simply do not wish for you make all this work only for it to get instantly rejected because of this.

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and i don't mean to make it seem like i think my project is a cheap bootleg of Doom, it's just that a lot of people say that it's like a "cheap bootleg" or "chinese clone" of Doom, and i'm not going to be able to satisfy these complaints and maintain the goal of the project at the same time,

Well, then that means your goal isn't viable in the current explanation, as given by you.

 

Ask yourself why Fraggle advised you twice over this. I am not saying this to pester you, but if Fraggle of all folks has concerns, then you need a more compelling argument than ''It isn't a cheap bootleg of Doom''.

 

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and yes, Freedoom can use Doom map packs, but there are plenty of map packs that simply don't work too well in Freedoom's spirit and enviroment,

That's not the point of FreeDoom. The point of Freedoom is that these mappacks can be played without legally owning Doom or Doom2, on top of providing a free game based on the Doom engine.

 

In order to do that, it was told by Carmack to be distinguished enough that it could be its own thing, whilst still being able to support all these mappacks.

 

The result is that FreeDoom can play all these mappacks, but it will use its own FreeDoom beastiary, maps, sprites, art for it.

 

Simplying modifying iD's designs (Whether its maps, sprites or monsters) is exactly something Carmack refused people to do.

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and i know it has to look different to avoid legal issues, i just don't think it has to look as different as it does, if i didn't think i could maintain a balance between "too close to the source material" and "too distant from the source material", i wouldn't be working on this project right now, and i do think that some of my assets are a bit too close to Doom, and i'm trying to change that, i just don't think that they have to be as distant from Doom as Freedoom is for that to be accomplished

Let me be a bit brazen here: What you think holds no candle towards what the legal status is regarding projects like these. There is a clear and cut definition - as defined by Carmack himself and as being stated by Fraggle.

Edited April 15, 2020 by Redneckerz

[sergeirocks100]

so, are you saying that my project, in it's current state, is too close to Doom to be legally secure, and i should try to distance myself even more from it?

[Redneckerz]

1 minute ago, sergeirocks100 said:

so, are you saying that my project, in it's current state, is too close to Doom to be legally secure, and i should try to distance myself even more from it?

If the content is significantly similar that one can recognize it as something from Doom, then yes, it is.

 

The fact that multiple have stated that some of the levels look like carbon copies of iD's work is a warning signal.

 

Its not about distancing yourself even more, its about being as far away from it as is needed to be legally different. See FreeDoom. It uses the Doom engine, but its legally different enough.

[sergeirocks100]

i already know that the levels are a legal quagmire, and i plan on changing those, but what about the enemies? how much would i need to change them to be more or less legally clear?

[⇛Marnetmar⇛]

Aside from Zenimax potentially not being happy, if OP plans on mostly doing this himself like he stated I really don't see what the problem is here. 

[Redneckerz]

3 minutes ago, sergeirocks100 said:

i already know that the levels are a legal quagmire, and i plan on changing those, but what about the enemies? how much would i need to change them to be more or less legally clear?

 

8 minutes ago, Redneckerz said:

If the content is significantly similar that one can recognize it as something from Doom

 

[sergeirocks100]

judging off of that, i think most of my enemy designs are legally clear, although the hell kobold would likely need some changing

[Polri]

If someone from Bethesda (or whoever owns the rights to classic doom at the moment) would read and screenshot this thread, they probably already have enough legal ammunition for a cease & desist.
 

I mean: your concept art for the monsters explicitly names all the original ones and then tries to create an almost similar equivalent to each. 

 

I'm affraid that your entire idea of making something that is both very similar to doom ànd avoids being a copyright infringement is simply not possible.

[Redneckerz]

12 minutes ago, sergeirocks100 said:

judging off of that, i think most of my enemy designs are legally clear, although the hell kobold would likely need some changing

 

1 hour ago, Redneckerz said:

Let me be a bit brazen here: What you think holds no candle towards what the legal status is regarding projects like these. There is a clear and cut definition - as defined by Carmack himself and as being stated by Fraggle.

Your designs look very similar in basis to the iD designs. Its execution might be different, but the basis remains the same.

[sergeirocks100]

so are you saying that i need to go the Freedoom route and replace everything with serpentipedes and flesh worms?

[Redneckerz]

1 hour ago, sergeirocks100 said:

so are you saying that i need to go the Freedoom route and replace everything with serpentipedes and flesh worms?

It is better to tread the FreeDoom route and replace everything with custom designs that do not intentionally invoke Doom.

[sergeirocks100]

i have decided to add a disclaimer to the github readme, it probably won't do anything, but it's nice to have

[P41R47]

3 hours ago, sergeirocks100 said:

so are you saying that i need to go the Freedoom route and replace everything with serpentipedes and flesh worms?

The problem is that your ''redesing'' of monsters is too similar to Doom' bestiary.
You should be more liberal and free minded in that area.
 

This are some example of hellish things if you wanna go that route:
Intead of a imp, put a cerberus like creature, still hellish, but no imp.
Intead of a revenant put an evil and wings-cutted bloody angel that throws flame arrows and attack with a cursed sword.
Instead of a cyberdemon, like a minotaur, put a mechanized demon, like a centaur, without horns.
Instead of the spidermastermind put a giant heart on a flask that have tentacle-like veins to move around and fire blood at you. With an eye! an eye in the center of the heart!

Just suggestions, pal. read the Bible (not Doom Bible, just the Holy Bible). And the Divine Comedy, there is soo much hellish imagery there to make your own ideas for monsters.
(don't use my examples, i already copyrighted those fucking brilliant ideas)

Edited April 15, 2020 by P41R47

[sergeirocks100]

here's some screenshots of a slightly more developed version of map04

my upload limit got decreased to exactly 7.56 megabytes for reasons that aren't clear to me, so i can't upload as many screenshots as i would like to

Spoiler

 

[TheUltimateDoomer666]

57 minutes ago, sergeirocks100 said:

i have decided to add a disclaimer to the github readme, it probably won't do anything, but it's nice to have

Yes, disclaimers like that won't do anything.

 

The monster designs look too similar to their DOOM counterparts.  The Cyberdemon replacement still looks like a Cyberdemon.  And the Mancubus replacement is still recognizably a Mancubus; just its arms are missing.

[sergeirocks100]

i agree, the mancubus replacement does look a lot like a mancubus, but not much more than Freedoom's does, i tried to mix elements of the two together, and i admit, the cyberdemon replacement does look a lot like a cyberdemon, but an excerpt from the Doom manual more or less describes what they share in common: "A missile-launching skyscraper with goat legs. 'Nuff said."

Edited April 15, 2020 by sergeirocks100

[joe-ilya]

5 hours ago, Marn said:

if OP plans on mostly doing this himself like he stated I really don't see what the problem is here. 

9 hours ago, sergeirocks100 said:

i'm planning on doing more or less my own original thing from the rest of map04 onwards, and no, my art only serves as concept art, to show people my ideas as well as lay down a groundwork for sprite artists, because i'm terrible at drawing sprites

Why do you have to lie about making your own thing for the rest of MAP04? The screenshot you just posted looks similar to the grate and switch area in the original map, with a pool of nukage and all.

Good luck in getting sprite artists to replace all Doom texture and monsters with this cease & desist project. You'll have to pay to get people to work on a project this doomed.

[sergeirocks100]

i made that section of the map before i decided to go my own direction with the rest of it, i said i was going to make the rest of the map in my own vision, not that i was going to ditch the stuff i had already worked on

[fraggle]

It seems like a good time to remind everyone that while criticism is okay, it's not okay to be rude.

[Redneckerz]

56 minutes ago, sergeirocks100 said:

i agree, the mancubus replacement does look a lot like a mancubus, but not much more than Freedoom's does, i tried to mix elements of the two together, and i admit, the cyberdemon replacement does look a lot like a cyberdemon, but an excerpt from the Doom manual more or less describes what they share in common: "A missile-launching skyscraper with goat legs. 'Nuff said."

Ideally your Cybie and your Mancubi aren't a Cybie and a Mancubi, but rather two original designs, instead of well, what could be their cousins.

But we constantly talk about FreeDoom. Lets introduce an rather unknown entry here: The People's Doom, by Boingo the Clown (Hugely influential in the Chex universe.)

Doomworld thread:

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''The People’s DooM (T.P.D.) is a freeware IWAD for use with the game DooM, and with the various DooM source ports currently available around the net.

 

DooM was a gaming phenomenon when it was released back in December of 1993.  The gaming world may have moved on, but DooM has managed to remain popular, even to this day.  In December 1997, id software released the original source code for DooM to the public.  This source code, in Unix format, was ported over to other platforms, such as Windows and Linux, by various gaming enthusiasts, thereby creating the DooM source ports.

 

Although the ports are freely available to all who want to use them, there is one little hitch.  Most of the information used By DooM, and therefore the ports as well, is stored in a special data file call a WAD.  There are two types of WAD; patch WADs, or PWADs, which contains partial replacement data for the game to use, and DooM’s internal WADs, or IWADs, which are required for DooM and the source ports in order to run.  Although PWADs have been made by users for years, and are freely available on the net, the only way to get hold of any of the IWADs is to own a copy of the original DooM, DooM II, or Final DooM, and that can be a problem, since finding a copy of DooM is becoming harder and harder these days.  Some people resort to piracy to get hold of the IWADs, but this is really not a good idea.  id Software still owns, and is still enforcing, the copyright on DooM, and pirating software, to be quite honest, is really bad karma in any case.

 

So how can we allow more people to play DooM, without having them resort to piracy?

 

The answer is simple.  We build a new IWAD.

 

This is no easy task.  We are not just throwing out a few levels here.  What we are doing is creating a file that replaces EVERYTHING that DooM and the source ports need to run with 100% new and original material.
 

Goals of This Project

• We want to create a fully functioning IWAD for DooM and the DooM source ports.
• This IWAD, once finished, is to be professional quality.  In other words, we want it to be good enough that one would seriously consider buying it, if it was available in a store.
• All resources within T.P.D. are to be original.  Nothing within the new IWAD should be taken from another source, such as the original DooM IWAD, or derived from such. Furthermore, T.P.D. is intended to have its own look and feel.  It is not just intended to be a DooM look alike.
• In order to ensure compatibility with maps within all existing PWADs, provided these maps are used with the appropriate source port if necessary, all textures from the original DooM IWAD will have an equivalent texture, albeit with a different appearance, in T.P.D..
• To further allow compatibility, all equivalent textures will have a similar theme to those they replace.  I.e. Textures meant to take the place of tech theme textures in the original DooM will also have a tech theme.  Original textures specific to T.P.D. will be given their own unique texture names.
• Once completed, the IWAD should have its own complete story.  The levels should be complete, and the game should be able to stand on its own.  Again, this is consistent with the creation of a quality product.
• Eventually, we would like create specific versions of T.P.D. for the different DooM source ports, such as DooM Legacy, and ZDooM, in order to take advantage of the port specific features.

Also ...

• An optional hack patch (DEH) will be created for the IWAD.  This patch will make appropriate text changes, and allow for improved animation and make changes in some monsters’ behaviour.  Any additional graphics required to go along with the patch will be included within the IWAD.  NOTE: The hack patch will not be required to run the game with the IWAD.
• With the exception of the patch noted above, no non-standard data will be created for the IWAD, such as MD2s or MP3s, until the IWAD is complete, since they are not necessary for the IWAD to function.
• In order to avoid comprising between the two types of play, there will be no levels that combine both single / coop play and deathmatch play.  Instead, the first three episodes of T.P.D. will be reserved for single / coop play, and the fourth episode will be reserved for deathmatch.''

Even TPD places several restrictions on its goals, with the highlighted part being original resources. Have a look at how TPD does it for more inspiration.

[joe-ilya]

I'm sorry.

 

Just please stop trying to get away with making identical Doom monsters and maps.

You have to scrap it all and start it all over, all the concept art and all the maps, with a new goal in mind, what you're trying to make isn't going to work and will eventually be a waste of time when you will be legally forced to take it all down, not only a waste of time for you, but also for the people that you're going to recruit (unless they got paid), if you end up getting that far.

That would really suck.

 

I get that you're not happy about FreeDoom, but that's the closest thing to Doom as you can legally make.

[boris]

How is this thread 5 pages long? The "concept art" is ridiculous, the levels are shitty rip-offs of the originals and we all know this project will not go anywhere because OP is probably 12 years old, and this thing will not go anywhere in the long run.

[sergeirocks100]

managed to get down the final room of map04, it's not much, but it's a start, or an end in this case

Spoiler

 

[cambreaKer]

5 minutes ago, sergeirocks100 said:

managed to get down the final room of map04, it's not much, but it's a start, or an end in this case

  Hide contents

 

i guess you're just going to ignore the last 4 posts above you

[sergeirocks100]

sure, it might seem a bit rude of me to ignore them, but there isn't much to reply to in the first place, fraggle telling everybody to try and avoid saying mean things, two posts more or less telling me to try and go in a more original direction with the project, which i am already trying to do, and boris giving out some scathing criticism, which doesn't really help me at all or say anything anybody else hasn't said already, and in fact, is quite insulting

[Horus]

Yes I think this thread has been going in circles for a long time I think, everything that needs to be said has been. At some point we just need to sit back and let OP learn their lesson the hard way...

[phoo]

I understand that you're making an effort to steer your project in a more original direction and I think that's great. However, I'd recommend that you get more familiar with the modding tools and experiment more with them by making some more basic stuff before working on a more ambitious project idea like this one.

[Redneckerz]

5 hours ago, fraggle said:

It seems like a good time to remind everyone that while criticism is okay, it's not okay to be rude.

 

4 hours ago, boris said:

How is this thread 5 pages long? The "concept art" is ridiculous, the levels are shitty rip-offs of the originals and we all know this project will not go anywhere because OP is probably 12 years old, and this thing will not go anywhere in the long run.

Is this criticism or is this rude?

I feel that there should be respectful criticism and that OP is being rather stubborn into not understanding what is tried to convey here.
 

3 hours ago, sergeirocks100 said:

sure, it might seem a bit rude of me to ignore them, but there isn't much to reply to in the first place,

Frankly that is quite insulting aswell, because it couldn't be explained more clearly to you. But you keep on insisting into trying to find nooks and crannies to make what you want possible.

At that stage it becomes difficult to  maintain composure and instead criticize you more heavily and focus on more obvious aspects, namely the quality of your content itself. I didn't go there because criticizing that is much more discouraging then pointing out the legality aspect of it.

 

Edited April 15, 2020 by Redneckerz

[sergeirocks100]

i have long since recognized that i can't be as close to Doom as i desire to be, i know that my old concept art and levels are more or less cheap ripoffs of their Doom equivalents, and i am trying to move this project in another direction, what i wanted to do with this project originally, i have discovered, wouldn't be very legal, and i am trying to do something different