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Dragonfly

Tormentor667. Care to explain why you plagiarised Epic 2?

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Disappointing to see this, plagiarism isn't OK and should be condemned.

 

That being said I think this could have been handled in better way, this thread has been effective at whipping people up into a frenzy which doesn't really serve a constructive purpose.

 

I'd like to see an acknowledgement and apology of sorts from Tormentor and for the offending maps to be replaced if they haven't already. Beyond that I'm not sure what else we can get out of this beyond agreeing that copying other peoples work is not something that should be allowed.

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Probably going to get hate for this but... screw it.

 

As many in this thread as pointed out already, I think we really do need to wait and hear Torm explain himself.

 

The guys that are saying that it is either he did it or he didn't and the evidence is irrefutable that he did so we don't need to hear what he says... that doesn't really sound right. We should at least hear him out, shouldn't we? Isn't that the civil thing to do here? If the answer is still "no" then why has the thread not been locked yet? The servers are getting stressed, people are screaming at each other and the mods are combing through this thread deleting potentially hurtful posts like ones that just insult others.

 

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13 minutes ago, Phobus said:

I know - I used to moderate them. That was also rather the point - we're not here to make drama, we're here to address the issue. 

We're here to make drama, only Tormentor can address the issue by replying & not doing it ever again

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9 minutes ago, ZZYZX said:

We're here to make drama

 

We are not actually.

 

Most people are simply expressing their dismay, which considering the mounting evidence is not surprising.

 

The flaming was more directed at people that decided to troll.

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This looks like mapping equivalent of photobashing something interesting before you paint over it. I have no problem with this. Yeah, using map that has explicitly written that it should't be used is unfortunate, bash him over the head to read the stuff before doing that again and let it go. Few copied rooms doesn't make a map anyway but can kickstart your mapping session real good. And if you just want to make something for fun in the evening to unwind? Understandable.

This looks like what happens in lot of communities when they start to take themselves too seriously - what is pointless nothing for anybody looking from outside in is cardinal sin inside community. I hope you won't end up banning and blacklisting people who don't care about such squabbles and say so publicly. Something similar happened in OpenXcom community some time ago and it just made everything worse for everybody.

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@Dragonfly has all the rights in the universe to be angry (I hope it's the right term).

But if I were him, I would send a private e-mail to Torm before showing to the public; perhaps it could be resolved without any possible drama.

 

This is all In My Humble Opinion, obviously.

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26 minutes ago, NeoWorm said:

This looks like mapping equivalent of photobashing something interesting before you paint over it. I have no problem with this. Yeah, using map that has explicitly written that it should't be used is unfortunate, bash him over the head to read the stuff before doing that again and let it go. Few copied rooms doesn't make a map anyway but can kickstart your mapping session real good. And if you just want to make something for fun in the evening to unwind? Understandable.

This looks like what happens in lot of communities when they start to take themselves too seriously - what is pointless nothing for anybody looking from outside in is cardinal sin inside community. I hope you won't end up banning and blacklisting people who don't care about such squabbles and say so publicly. Something similar happened in OpenXcom community some time ago and it just made everything worse for everybody.

It's not "unfortunate", its laziness and a conscious choice, and he dumped this into a high quality project. It wasn't personal practice. The reason this is coming up in a public forum is because its repeated behavior that has been addressed in private with no change in behavior. And think about it- how would you feel if you, as a project leader, asked someone to make an original piece and you find out later it wasn't original at all? 

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2 minutes ago, LuciferSam86 said:

@Dragonfly has all the rights in the universe to be angry (I hope it's the right term).

But if I were him, I would send a private e-mail to Torm before showing to the public; perhaps it could be resolved without any possible drama.

 

This is all In My Humble Opinion, obviously.

It's been addressed in private without any change in behavior, that's why its here.

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32 minutes ago, NeoWorm said:

This looks like what happens in lot of communities when they start to take themselves too seriously - what is pointless nothing for anybody looking from outside in is cardinal sin inside community. I hope you won't end up banning and blacklisting people who don't care about such squabbles and say so publicly. Something similar happened in OpenXcom community some time ago and it just made everything worse for everybody.

I don't think any of the moderation team has expressed an interest in having Torm banned, the idea was thrown around by some users who were wondering what would happen next but as he hasn't broken any rules here I don't think he should be banned, and I'm fairly certain that sentiment is shared by most of the people who posted here. The main development that will come out of this, I imagine, is that most people will be extra careful now when accepting community contributions from him, but I don't expect (nor do I want) his projects to cease development over this or for his site to be shut down or whatever else. I think this is a good opportunity for him to apologize and own up to past mistakes, which would undoubtedly improve his damaged reputation, but whether that will happen or not remains to be seen. Certainly I don't think trying to scare him off the community is the intent here.

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This is definitely a scum move, but one that probably happens all too often. its impossible to go through every map for a community project and compare it to every other map in existance. this time Dragonfly was lucky that some people DID notice (Probably because Torm  kept the Egyptian theme)

 

@Dragonfly If you wish to re release a version of skulldash without this despicable map, I would be happy to design a new map for that slot for you.

 

Torm has shown on numerous occasions (Including his entire site) That he has zero issues with stealing content from other people. IMO he is a blight on the community.

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If he had the permission to use the maps as a base, credited it properly, and moreover hadn't submitted it to a community project, then it would be a lot more acceptable.

 

But since that is not the case, the accusation of plagiarism is very valid. He should also really know better, having made content for this community for 2 decades.

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6 hours ago, Untamed64 said:

What a coincidence, we recently caught on to some map plagiarism in the Wolf3D community too.

 

I can sort of understand plagiarising somebody's sectors or brushwork. (Sort of.)

 

But why would anybody need to plagiarise a map for Wolf3D, which to my impression is the simplest FPS to create for?? 

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Just now, onetruepurple said:

 

I can sort of understand plagiarising somebody's sectors or brushwork. (Sort of.)

 

But why would anybody need to plagiarise a map for Wolf3D, which to my impression is the simplest FPS to create for?? 

 

As an avid wolf 3d mapper, I can tell you that it is INCREDIBLY difficult to design a unique level in wolf 3d. Being limited to a 64x64 box, on a flat 2d floorplan gives you very little room for originality. So when a level with that originality comes along, it wont take long for people to steal it and hope to claim it as their own.

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And to @Dragonfly specifically:

 

I hope you know that a single bad incident coming to light does not negate a decade of your effort.

 

You have every right to be disappointed and angry that your project had received plagiarised contributions. But I don't think the legacy of Skulldash is in any way endangered, or has any mark on it.

 

From what little time I've spent hanging around the Doom macrocosm, you have always given the impression of a talented creator with integrity and an affinity to encourage others to create their own work.

 

Nobody will think less of Skulldash, or of you, just because of this. 

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34 minutes ago, Major Arlene said:

It's not "unfortunate", its laziness and a conscious choice, and he dumped this into a high quality project. It wasn't personal practice. The reason this is coming up in a public forum is because its repeated behavior that has been addressed in private with no change in behavior. And think about it- how would you feel if you, as a project leader, asked someone to make an original piece and you find out later it wasn't original at all? 

This is what I was talking in the second paragraph. You all take yourselves way too seriously. It's a map with two copied rooms and this thread is filled with people calling it abhorent, saying that Torm is dead to them and that he is a blight to the community... It's just petty. From the reactions it seems he not only copied the level as it is but kicked a kitty and caused war in middle east while doing so.
Majority of poeple don't even care who you, me, Dragonfly or Torm are and they can play mods for DooM all day every day.
It's not like it will cause somebody to sue anybody around here and nobody was hurt. If there is a blight on any community it's people who thinks public flogging will improve anything.

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7 minutes ago, NeoWorm said:

This is what I was talking in the second paragraph. You all take yourselves way too seriously. It's a map with two copied rooms and this thread is filled with people calling it abhorent, saying that Torm is dead to them and that he is a blight to the community... It's just petty. From the reactions it seems he not only copied the level as it is but kicked a kitty and caused war in middle east while doing so.
Majority of poeple don't even care who you, me, Dragonfly or Torm are and they can play mods for DooM all day every day.
It's not like it will cause somebody to sue anybody around here and nobody was hurt. If there is a blight on any community it's people who thinks public flogging will improve anything.

Stealing shit is bad, how many times do we need to go over this

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4 minutes ago, NeoWorm said:

You all take yourselves way too seriously. It's a map

For you it's just a map. For many others mapping is a form of creative expression.

 

This should be obvious like 2 + 2 equals fucking 4.

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10 hours ago, Tarnsman said:

For everyone saying things like "we need to hear his side". Like legitimately what do you expect him to say that's going to change anything?

 

 

He has a paypal button and his website asks for donations when you go to it. So yeah...

At the very least, he needs to be a man & apologize in public for his actions in the past & present without any excuses.

If he had the balls to literally copy/paste people's work multiple times, then he needs to have the balls to own up to the authors that he upset. 

 

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Whatever. Too many people take art too seriously. Sometimes it's just not worth it. Quite often actually. Most of art is recycled ideas anyway. Unless it can ruin somebody's life, it's just petty.

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10 minutes ago, NeoWorm said:

Whatever. Too many people take art too seriously. Sometimes it's just not worth it. Quite often actually. Most of art is recycled ideas anyway. Unless it can ruin somebody's life, it's just petty.

I would say that "ruining someones life" would be the end of the spectrum. When it comes to art there are gradients to plagiarism. For example there have been many instances where art has been stolen by some dodgy online stores and put on shirts and other merch, making a profit, and the original artists getting nothing. That is pretty shitty, IMO.

What Torm has done might not be quite that shitty, but I would not hold if past people if they would not want him to be part of future community projects, etc.
There has to be a certain kind of a good will in a community to function well, and it seems to me that he has violated that good will not just once.

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14 minutes ago, NeoWorm said:

Whatever. Too many people take art too seriously. Sometimes it's just not worth it. Quite often actually. Most of art is recycled ideas anyway. Unless it can ruin somebody's life, it's just petty.

 

Really wish DW was moderated like SomethingAwful. 

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I'm in the "what was done was very scummy" camp, but I'm also in the camp who doesn't think simple opposing ideas warrant any sort of action. Punitive measures should be reserved for people who spam or are consistently abusive, not for saying that plagiarism maybe isn't the worst thing in the world.

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...Man.

 

I sort of hope for Torm's sake that this is all a series of odd coincidences, but there's no denying the fact of the matter. The evidence speaks for itself. And plagiarism is a serious issue - so much so that it's punishable by eviction at worst in universities, for a good reason to boot.

 

I don't know if I'll ever look at him the same way again.

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4 minutes ago, ptoing said:

I would say that "ruining someones life" would be the end of the spectrum. When it comes to art there are gradients to plagiarism. For example there have been many instances where art has been stolen by some dodgy online stores and put on shirts and other merch, making a profit, and the original artists getting nothing. That is pretty shitty, IMO.

What Torm has done might not be quite that shitty, but I would not hold if past people if they would not want him to be part of future community projects, etc.
There has to be a certain kind of a good will in a community to function well, and it seems to me that he has violated that good will not just once.

This is so insignificant that any comparisons to any real harm are out of question. We now operate on community rules that nobody even in very next topic wouldn't care about.

And the second part is exactly what I was talking about in my very fist post there. It's just seeding animosity that so often change into people in the community starting to be assholes about everything. "I made this and everybody can join except You!" Than somebody from outside comes and ask why are you all being so shitty to this guy and the drama is back in full force. This is what you all should want to avoid. And as I said, making a shamefest of something like this is just petty and makes everybody look worse for that.
 

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lol

don't do the "there's nothing new under the sun" shite

it's reductionist and not true and you're using it as a way of defending someone who used other people's work as a shortcut without asking or admitting it

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3 minutes ago, NeoWorm said:

"I made this and everybody can join except You!"

That is the whole thing about good will being messed with. I am not a fan of cancel culture, and I am not advocating for cutting Torm out of the community, but I  would not be surprised if it took a while before people trusted him to not do this kind of thing again.

What he has done is shown in multiple occasions that he does not care to even give credit or ask people if he can use their stuff. Why he does this, when it seems that he can actually come up with maps by himself (or so I hope at least), is beyond me. All I am saying is that I understand why people would think twice than to collab with him for the foreseeable future.

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There's not much he can say, he was lazy AF. Even visually the rooms are similar.

 

IMO, Dragonfly is right to be at least mad at him, especially because it's his own project.

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