Tormentor667. Care to explain why you plagiarised Epic 2?

[Cacowad]

36 minutes ago, NeoWorm said:

Whatever. Too many people take art too seriously. Sometimes it's just not worth it. Quite often actually. Most of art is recycled ideas anyway. Unless it can ruin somebody's life, it's just petty.

My reaction, after reading this:

Spoiler

C'mon, even ignorance have it's limit. Even if you don't recognize or are insensible to art as a form of expression, it is a business and a big one to boot; and that, simply put, mean someone care, a lot. And belittling those who care isn't the way to go.

[Doom64hunter]

10 minutes ago, ptoing said:

Why he does this, when it seems that he can actually come up with maps by himself (or so I hope at least), is beyond me.

Laziness is probably the motive. If I remember correctly, there were entire sections in BoA Chapter 1 that were copy pasted from earlier levels (of BoA), complete with the same thing and enemy placement. This is essentially that but taken from another mapset entirely.

[Tarnsman]

1 hour ago, The_SloVinator said:

At the very least, he needs to be a man & apologize in public for his actions in the past & present without any excuses.

If he had the balls to literally copy/paste people's work multiple times, then he needs to have the balls to own up to the authors that he upset. 

 

 

I agree that's what Tormentor should do.

 

It was more directed at the people who are saying we should not jump to conclusions until he has a chance to speak. Like he's going to say "oh this is just some wacky coincidence that my levels have geometry that lines up perfectly with other levels, multiple times, and the other instances of me lifting others work does not speak to any sort of pattern at all" and suddenly new clarity will be provided.

[HavoX]

...shakes head in disgust...

 

I just woke up this morning and saw this thread. I didn't have time to read all of it, and I want to hear Tormentor667's side of the story.

But all I have to say is... if all of this is true, I am VERY DISAPPOINTED in you, Tormentor667.

[CARRiON]

1 hour ago, NeoWorm said:

Whatever. Too many people take art too seriously. Sometimes it's just not worth it. Quite often actually. Most of art is recycled ideas anyway. Unless it can ruin somebody's life, it's just petty.

 

Wow, who would have thought communities full of creative types would take creative works seriously, and have a general consensus that stealing shit, especially to put into someone else's project, and especially when what they stole from asked them not to, is kind of sort of maybe, idk, a little bit wrong? Disrespectful?

[esselfortium]

50 minutes ago, NeoWorm said:

This is so insignificant that any comparisons to any real harm are out of question.
 

1 hour ago, NeoWorm said:

Whatever. Too many people take art too seriously.

 

Thanks, I'll pass this along to 2012 me. "Stop being upset about a popular community member trying to steal your unreleased work from under your nose, your work doesn't matter as much as his reputation anyway :-)"

 

Come to think of it, if I hadn't taken it seriously enough to investigate possible rips prior to Refinery's release, I could have been the one called out later for suspiciously similar work if I had released my original versions after his mirrored "original work do not steel" rips of them had already come out!

[NightFright]

I am not a mapper, but I understand all the others being upset about it. Still, I am also concerned about the repercussions of all these (probably justified) accusations since I have some doubts Tormentor will continue working on his projects (mainly Blade of Agony right now) after all this.

 

(There will probably be people out there who feel compelled to answer to this: "Who would want to play anything from a copyist, anyway?", but let's be honest, it was still good stuff. "Only" the way it has been handled was obviously not OK.)

Edited April 6, 2020 by NightFright

[scalliano]

Fuck me, this is damning...

[Dragonfly]

I think the thing about this thread that I find both stressful and tiring is that a vast majority of these posts are essentially people trying to antagonise further or aren't empathising before posting; some of the viewpoints expressed are genuinely baffling.

 

Look, I don't like this situation at all, and I understand that it's "the internet way" to pile on the bandwagon... But come on. If you're going to reply, please make it a response that adds value to the discussion in a meaningful way. I don't want to see more straight-up flaming of Torm, nor do I want to see more galaxy-brain attempts at defending them either, since most of the cases put forward are, unfortunately, irrefutably stupid. Coincidence? Stretched too thin resorting to stealing? Every possible combination of shapes has been drawn already? Really??

 

If you have a meaningful point, for example evidence for or against Torm's case, then please post. Otherwise, why on earth are you involving yourself in this metaphorical shit storm?

 

And to those suggesting Torm should be banned or stop working on projects, no. No he shouldn't. I imagine this thread's already done more than enough damage. What I hope he does though is respond to this thread, coming clean about any/all instances of ripped content, with a genuine apology for what he's done and then move on from it. Learn from it this time, with proof.

 

There's no shame in leaning on fellow members of the community for support, ideas and inspiration as long as it's done so in a way that all involved parties approve of and are made aware of. Without this as a foundation, Doom's community would have died decades ago.

[Linguica]

I am closing this thread for the time being since it's becoming the free-for-all I was hoping it wouldn't.

[Linguica]

Tormentor667 has responded on his personal site: https://www.realm667.com/index.php/en/home/archiv/17-site-news/2239-statement-regarding-the-plagiarism-accusation so I will reopen this for the time being.

[Dragonfly]

I'd like to thank Tormentor667 for taking the time to respond. In complete honesty, I am not sure I fully believe the reasoning behind how this happened. However, as the saying goes, actions speak louder than words. As long as no other instances of this mistakenly-sourced material occurs, I'd say that's a win for everyone and is the best possible outcome of all of this.

 

Despite struggling to believe the statement, I accept their apology. Hope others can do the same.

[Bauul]

Whether or not you buy into the reasoning Torm provides, I'm glad he recognizes the severity of the situation and is suitably apologetic.

 

To anyone still wondering why this was considered a big deal, it's important to understand that for most mappers here, we don't make maps for a further goal - making maps is the goal.  They're an artistic expression of the mapper's creativity - to be appreciated and enjoyed by ourselves and our peers.  With Doom's longevity, these maps may well live on longer than many of us - they're our contribution to the legacy of this game.  As such, artistic integrity is of the upmost importance to us - without it, we undermine the very human element of Doom mapping that is so important. These are not just abstract creations, but the expression of the authors behind them. Not Jabba's fantastic History of Doom is not a history of linedefs and sectors, but of people - of their efforts, influences and legacies.

 

This is why something like plagiarism, the act of taking someone else's art and passing it off as your own, is considered so disappointing.  It strikes at the very heart of why we do this in the first place.  

 

I hope, most of all, this thread serves as a good insight into the passion and the love this community has for Doom mapping as the creative endeavor it is, and why doing something that is truly yours is always the right way forwards.

[Scorpius]

Just saw this thread and I knew I had to reply with something. Why? Because I was recently called out for plagiarism too.

 

I am still kicking myself about it. I honestly feel bad. However, judging by the screenshots, this looks so much worse than my case.

 

EDIT: Didn't realize he apologized by the time I posted this. Brilliant! :/

[SyntherAugustus]

12 hours ago, Ralphis said:

I hope nobody ever compares udm1 map01 to dwango5 map02 or my ass is GONE

Just don't hack my Netscape again.

 

Seriously. That's what this thread reminded me of.

[Redneckerz]

All the best, Torm. Nothing more needs to be said. Just, all the best.

[Dubbag]

This is some crazy shit. I can't even with this. I've literally worked on WADs to the point of mental exhaustion, staying up as much as 30 hours in a row working on one map. Spending way too much time on my stuff. getting 4 hours sleep before work because I stay up late to work my project when I had to wake up at 5 AM. I can't even imagine the amount of effort and dedication people put into making something as incredible as "Epic 2" really sad that some one would just copy that persons work and use it as their own and actually think that they could forever get away with it. But this type of thing happens in ALL art mediums. It sucks, I can't stand it, and as a fellow WAD editor is very frustrating to see.

Edited April 6, 2020 by Dubbagdarrel

[OniriA]

It's sad to see this all to have indeed be the case. Even though it was better to discuss the matter privately I hope the reply will bring some resolve to this for both parties and can move forward.

 

[Terrcraft]

he wouldn't respond privately that's why this was public. 

[Edward850]

32 minutes ago, OniriA said:

It's sad to see this all to have indeed be the case. Even though it was better to discuss the matter privately I hope the reply will bring some resolve to this for both parties and can move forward.

It has been explained at length in this thread that he has previously done this before with the issue being resolved privately, and the fact that it was still happening is why it's public now. And you've been here since page 1, which is where it was first explained, so you're not "late to the party" on this one. 

Edited April 6, 2020 by Edward850

[noisebloom]

1 hour ago, Dragonfly said:

However, as the saying goes, actions speak louder than words. As long as no other instances of this mistakenly-sourced material occurs, I'd say that's a win for everyone and is the best possible outcome of all of this.

 

Well stated.

[NightFright]

The fact that this was discovered proved one thing to me: There are guys out there who play a LOT of Doom maps. I would have never noticed the differences, tbh. But I guess if you were personally involved in a project or you just play some mods a lot, it's much easier.

 

As I wrote to Torm via PM, I'm not going to really point fingers since I am merely a user here without any considerable creative contributions. I can understand why many others feel offended and everybody must decide for themselves if they accept this explanation/apology or not. As far as I am concerned, I say let's call it a day with this and get back to business. We can be sure it won't happen again.

Edited April 6, 2020 by NightFright

[Wereknight]

On 4/6/2020 at 12:08 AM, Austinado said:

Is there a Cringe section in DW?

 

....

Post Hell. But you will never see this part of DW unless someone hack and bang Linguica's brain out of him. Which will never happen too.

[Dynamo]

3 hours ago, NightFright said:

As far as I am concerned, I say let's call it a day with this and get back to business. We can be sure it won't happen again.

As nice as that would be, I'm afraid that some of Tormentor's subsequent responses cast doubts over the honesty of his apology. For instance, he explained that he deliberately chose not credit Laz Rojas for taking half his map without permission solely so that nobody would predict his easter egg map, and further, threatened to shut down the entirety of Realm667 in case the community refuses to forgive him. Whilst these statements were posted on a different forum board, since the Realm667 website is an important resource used by many in the community at large, irrespective of forum board preference, I feel like such an announcement should be publicly known. I can only hope that we have indeed weathered the storm as said and hoped by most but when the simplest follow-up to the apology results in even more controversial and false claims being made (such as claiming that he only took a snippet of Rheingold, when in reality as Bouncy and Dragonfly showed it's almost the entirety of the map that was taken), I think lingering doubts and suspicions will persist until hopefully these, too, are cleared up once and for all to everyone's satisfaction.

 

Edited April 7, 2020 by Dynamo

[ZZYZX]

I personally fully believe Torm's response as there is a difference between copying whole location (Rheingold) and copying small rooms & connecting them differently.

Also, think his current statement about Rheingold (and Epic) does not contradict the old one. 

 

I would guess that since Tormentor is known for his copy+paste mapping he could/should have a flow like described (which is actually also a nice idea/advice for mappers who otherwise don't finish a project -- not copying pieces of other maps, but drawing incomplete pieces and assembling them together later in a large map)

Edited April 7, 2020 by ZZYZX

[ZealknightMR]

I realize that my words came out wrong yesterday. The reason I said this felt awkward to me was because I have played some of those maps in the past and enjoyed them. I felt pretty bad knowing that mappers, who put a lot of work into their projects, were emotionally hurt by this discovery and rightfully so. I don't want them to think that their hard working project has been soiled by this discovery. I am certainly not going to go out of my way and tell people not to play their projects because of this incident. I can only hope that this doesn't happen again.

 

It's good that Torm has responded to this. I'm not sure how much I can truly believe his words. But, if Dragonfly is willing to accept his apology, than I can too. I'm just glad that this can end peacefully.

[Untamed64]

Honest mistake really, If I was a mapper and had his set up, I bet I'd eventually make the same mistake too

[SlayerOGames666]

 I don't care what else you do, Tormenter, that's gotta hurt. 

[nue]

Pretty sad to see this and while im hesitant to even post I do think the right people need to go through Torms maps and see how much of this hes done before. Its possible that were only scratching the surface of a nasty habit. Its also maybe (and scarily) a possibility that other mappers have done this before and they just havent been caught yet. Hopefully this serves as a valuable example to people in general that you will be caught eventually for bad decisions and turn away new mappers from this option of mapping, if you could even call it that.

[SlayerOGames666]

16 hours ago, onetruepurple said:

 

I can sort of understand plagiarising somebody's sectors or brushwork. (Sort of.)

 

But why would anybody need to plagiarise a map for Wolf3D, which to my impression is the simplest FPS to create for?? 

People are lazy.