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Tormentor667. Care to explain why you plagiarised Epic 2?

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4 minutes ago, Untamed64 said:

Nue, Did you even read Torm's response? It was a one time mistake

On 4/5/2020 at 4:10 PM, esselfortium said:

It should also be noted that this isn't the first time Tormentor667 has plagiarized.


If hes done this more than once I cant trust what he says, even if he sounds genuine in the apology.


Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

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I don't want to say Tormentor is being disingenuous with his apology, maybe it's just his way of conducting himself, but I can't deny that his wording is kind of strange and almost comes off as sort of avoidant at points. Like he'll acknowledge there were indeed wrongdoings, but that he will only take the responsibility that is demanded of him, in that the main issue this thread addressed in the first place, and prefer that the rest of his shady behavior be swept to the side. Whether or not this is just how he acts or there is some deep-rooted issue of his, it's an unfortunate situation regardless.

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While I do think this is terrible, and really unexpected coming from Torm, I'll still enjoy these maps like the first time I played them. Sure, they have copy-pasted parts of other maps, but all in all I think that this only minimally impacts how incredibly enjoyable they are put together.


But yeah, I feel pretty disappointed about this and really, really, REALLY hope that his future maps aren't done this way, it's forgivable if he really feels sorry and stops doing things this way, but it's certainly not if he's trying to make himself look less guilty and still continue with the same plagiarism over and over again.


And the whole inspiration thing, well, one thing is inspiration, yeah, but another thing entirely is literally copy-pasting someone else's work, and even worse, not giving any credit.

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Well, this was quite a thing that blew up overnight. And hoo boy, I have a ton of thoughts about this. So I'll do what I can to keep this concise.



Yes, I do understand that inspiration can be taken and sometimes coincidences do happen. But I still have a hard time believing that entire sections of maps that come from mapsets the author explicitly disallowed copying from end up copied in other maps complete with the same thing placement, even if a few linedefs are shuffled around here and there. There's a very distinct difference between what we've all seen in Plutonia and... well, what's happened here.


And yeah, apparently there's an entire history of Tormentor plagiarizing from others, and all I have to ask is... why?


From the way I see it, Tormentor is an extremely talented mapper and designer (just take a look at the Torture and Torment series, Stronghold, and Blade of Agony), so it makes zero sense for him to do something like this let alone for several years now.

According to him, he's been mapping for about 24 years now, so why would he end up trying shit?

Like I said, coincidences do happen, but still.



But all I can say for now is that at least there seems to have been a mutual understanding and acceptance in the end (or at the very least, it didn't devolve into a repeat of the "arrogance and contempt" incident). 


That being said, I do have my doubts about the apology and whether it will lead to legitimately changed behavior going forward. Actions do speak louder than words, and it's entirely up to him on whether he can truly earn his keep.



And even if the apology leads to changed behavior, what can we do as a community if it turns out another incident like this occurs?

What really can be done if the traditional gentlemen's agreement of not using others' work wholesale without permission is broken (especially when it turns out not to be a coincidence or yet another case of "inspiration")?

In that case, I have a couple of theories about "punishment" and what exactly it entails (and no, it's not necessarily about Tormentor's actions but more of a general set of guidelines):


Unofficially, there are four types of punishment and what exactly they entail, both in terms of action and goals.

The oldest is retribution, punishment that only serves to harm those who have harmed others.
Rehabilitation is designed so that the guilty party is given an opportunity to reform and better themselves.

Deterrence is the idea of punishing a wrongdoer to clarify a moral boundary so others are forewarned not to cross it.

Incapacitation punishes someone so that as long as they are punished, they're unable to hurt anyone else.


Yes, I am well aware that people will worry about the justice of attempts to punish people, especially on the Internet. But the Doom community is mostly online, and drawing a collective moral redline against scummy behavior might be an important statement of community values. 

Ultimately, retribution is never recommended here, and I'm not sure what exactly deterrence would imply in regards to direct action. It's ultimately in the discretion of the moderators and authority figures on which method of punishment works best depending on the situation, especially considering that the threat of expulsion may not truly deter any would-be abusers.


In the end, my final thoughts consist of this (and I guess I can consider this my statement to Tormentor himself even though he already apologized):

If you've ever done something wrong in the past (or especially in the present), notice that you did it and acknowledge it. Stop doing it now and figure out how to stop yourself from ever doing it again in the future. If possible, try to find a way to seek out amends.

An actual "I'm sorry" apology is one way to acknowledge your mistakes and open the door to making amends, but it may not be necessary or it may even be counterproductive.


Don't just do what might make you feel better about yourself. Do something that might genuinely help someone you may have hurt or might help others who might've been hurt by someone else in a similar fashion.


And above all else, if you're fucking up as who you are now, then it's never too late to become someone else. You may have done regrettable things and those may never be forgotten or even forgiven, but you can drown them out with acts of beauty.


You are NOT the sum of your mistakes or your failures.


Trust me, I know from personal experience.

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I do understand why he would not continue running R667 if the community didn't forgive him. Certainly there's no point trying to run a donation-driven site that isn't going to be seen from a good perspective in the future, with donations unlikely and it being "guilty by association".


And certainly whining about assets from a 21-years-old mod isn't going to help either, IMO. Instead, it's better to move on from such a matter.

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13 hours ago, Dynamo said:

As nice as that would be, I'm afraid that some of Tormentor's subsequent responses cast doubts over the honesty of his apology. For instance,

I find your summary post rather mean-spirited given what you said hours prior off-site. I totally understand why you feel it gets neglected, but there is no need for this cross-referencing to take place.  If you want to take the olive branch ive thrown into your screen twice prior, please consider taking it and message me privately.

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We have all been given a limited amount of energy by the universe and our time in this world is short. Instead of wasting it on negativity and malice its better to use it for forgiveness, empathy and productivity.


I too was caught in this whirlwind of negativity and it led to nowhere but more evil.


All things said, I think the initial objective of this thread has been reached and the mods would be wise to lay this thread to rest, since anything that will come after this will add nothing to what has alrdy been said before.


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8 minutes ago, Tormentor667 said:

(for the last, remember that WolfenDoom Rheingold was a well-known mod in the 90's and people recognized the place in a second if they have played Rheingold).

Whilst i fully understand your side of things (as you know!) , i have to address this part.

It is very well the case that people who did play Rheingold in the 90s would recognize the place in T&T in 2008.

But, is recognition enough to implement the homage alone? Back in 2008, i feel that may be reason enough. But as years passed by, crediting and licensing became a sub-topic of its own (What with the GLOOME project and GZDoom-GPL inbetween) and is something a lot of users do feel strongly about.

BoA credits a lot of third party work to make the game what it is today. I fully get that something will slip by through the crack with such reliances. That's not why i singled this part out.

The question should more be: Is what is currently a homage and was treated as such back in 2008, still retain the same attribution parameters? I feel that's the major gist here.

What people instantly would recognize as a Rheingold reference back in 2008 might change in 12 years. For that reason alone though, and sadly i couldn't bring it across at ZDF, but if i can help arrange a meeting between you and Rojas or something else to that effect to get this reference credited (for better or worse), then heck, why not.

That's the previously mentioned olive branch. For the rest, as i am sure more invested members will have a say in other aspects of this statement, ill side with the following:

8 minutes ago, Tormentor667 said:

Let's move on now, spend our time in being creative and living our passion.


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1 hour ago, Tormentor667 said:

Let's move on now, spend our time in being creative and living our passion. Best wishes to all of you!

As we've both said our piece and you have given your confirmation that this is not the route you intend to take for the website, I can only reciprocate. Best of luck to your and your projects.

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14 minutes ago, Dragonfly said:

Look, I know you're saying your piece in good faith, but you've reduced yourself to appearing like a mindless follower, which in the early stages of this debacle certainly didn't help Torm's case at all as you (and others, admittedly) were piping up before they had a chance to respond for themselves.

That's an easy one: I have to work with him. So if that makes me a follower, well, technically its colleague, but follower, why not :P

Trust me, i have expressed my criticism in private, one on one.

Certainly let's not discuss how the onset of this thread in the beginning was composed of, which was comprised of pure emotion, vitriol and at times pure irrationality.

Its why i dropped out of the thread first and formost - I partook in responding out of emotion for the bigger part of it.

This thread initially was not wrapped in the highest quality of cardboard. It is understandable how it went by, but it was not ideal.



I get you respect them, but you don't need to emphasise this with every. Single. Post. It's beyond tiresome.

Its not my intention to appear as Torms defender by any means and your highlighting of this behavior is appreciated.

I hope that goes both ways, Dragonfly.


I'm only highlighting this in your interest, so you're aware of how these posts are being potentially percieved.

Its no excuse, Dutch bluntness is typically percieved rather negatively even though that's not the intent of it. I am glad you stated first and formost that you recognize it is done in good faith.

Its just... lets just say it has some great advantages but its also very detrimental at how you can come across. I know it, i try my best to limit this. :)

Thanks Dragon!

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