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Straal99

Do you guys make checkpoints?

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I mean, like when you know there is going to e a tough tnemy in the next room and you save so you don't have to re-do the whole level. I don't do them because I feel like I am cheating but what about you guys?

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I think most people use them.  Saving is a perfectly acceptable aspect of the game - id didn't program a save system, with dedicated quick save and load buttons, just for people to avoid it.

 

Doing a map from scratch with no saves is its own kind of challenge, and is very rewarding, but it certainly isn't the only way to play a level.  

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, Bauul said:

I think most people use them.  Saving is a perfectly acceptable aspect of the game - id didn't program a save system, with dedicated quick save and load buttons, just for people to avoid it.

 

Doing a map from scratch with no saves is its own kind of challenge, and is very rewarding, but it certainly isn't the only way to play a level.  

Well, I've been playing Doom 1 and 2 with no saves on Ultra-Violence and a couple of times i've died just when I was about to finish the level xD just 'cause I thought it was "cheating" to save midway through. Even if its hard or "stupid" to play like this I'm going to keep playing like this, it's pretty rewarding when you finish a level that has been difficult from start to finish

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There's absolutely nothing "cheating" about saving.  Some custom maps take hours to beat - no-one is expecting you to have to restart something that big because a Specter ran in front of your rocket.

 

On the other hand, there is such as a thing as "save scumming", where a player saves every 2 seconds, even in the middle of fights, to make things easier.  Again, this isn't "cheating" by any stretch, but it can be seen to take the challenge out of a map.  Really you should just do whatever you enjoy the most.  If you like doing a map saveless, go right ahead.  But if you want to save before a big fight - by all means, absolutely nobody will judge you.  

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Usually key saves (preferable to do-so when you are in the vicinity of it and not when you collect it because 99% of keys are spring traps and you may save during a very inopportune time), but sometimes I cave before a Cyberdemon due to their unpredictable nature or what looks like a bullshit trap (slow crushing ceilings) or maybe an inescapable slime pit. Start saves only if I'm feeling particularly brave and willing to learn a map.

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Depends on the mapset, something like scythe 1 doesn't require a ton of saving due to the short-form maps, but other megawads, like later maps of Valiant or Ancient Aliens would just drag on far too long if I had to restart every time I died. I used to think of saving mid-level as cheating, but then realized, I'm no speedrunner, what do I have to prove, and to whom? So I see no problem playing WADs on lower difficulties or with saves, after all, there's a reason the options are there.

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No, it is boring and makes game very less intense. If i can't finish the map without saves after tons of attempts i just lower difficulty. 

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i think it is a form of cheating to be honest, i think in bigger maps thou we should be granted a few saves but still have a limit to it.

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Posted (edited)

Given how a lot of the community is either better at Doom than me, or making maps for people who are, it makes sense to ease frustration. As a result, I have no issue with saving as much as I need to in order to see something through. On a long map, I think more mappers should be taking advantage of the autosave feature in ports like ZDoom so that the player can have the option to not lose all of their progress.

 

The alternative, when the death feels like bullshit and comes out of nowhere (honestly, surprisingly often - particularly in CPs), is to open up the old console and type "resurrect". I try to avoid doing that, though, as it clearly is cheating and I should have a saved game already in place if I've been playing a map for any significant length of time

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Sometimes, you will stumble into an area and get instantly fragged and think "what the fuck just happened??!!??" when 8000,000 cacos attack from nowhere. You might have noticed a bunch of powerups either just before, or in the distance...

 

I'll restart the level/from last save and then deliberately save just before the 8000,000 cacos spawn and keep trying from that save point. I did a LOT of that back in the day when I was trying to beat D1 and D2 vanilla.

 

Other than that, I tend just to play without mid-level saving for zen, relaxation, blank out the screaming kids etc...

 

 

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I do save fairly often, usually for what I consider "milestones", like before/after big fights or when I reach a new area of the map or whatever. If I'm feeling particularly lazy or cautious, though (which is often), I'll end up saving a lot more frequently, especially during total bullshit areas/levels or while playing a map blind.

I do worry that it's considered cheating, and the general consensus seems to be split, but to my understanding, it's a feature provided by the game so it can be used however you want.

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12 hours ago, Bauul said:

there is such as a thing as "save scumming", where a player saves every 2 seconds, even in the middle of fights, to make things easier. 

I do this all the time and I'm not ashamed, purely because I'll tempt fate and save when I'm low on health and every now and then it's an instant before the revenant rocket hits the back of my head.  Then I gotta restart the goddamn level and be like, "well, I deserved that"

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10 hours ago, Aku said:

i think it is a form of cheating to be honest, i think in bigger maps thou we should be granted a few saves but still have a limit to it.

Why? The only limiting factor to how much you can save is your own ego. There's no rule anywhere that says "oh yeah, btw on longer maps you can save 3 times :)" because there is no need for a rules-list for casual play. It's not cheating if its an intended feature. Obviously, you can abuse such a feature, but who cares? Even continuous speedruns, such as those found on GDQ, use saves. While in official Doom speedrunning demos, its prohibited, mostly due to the fact that I believe pausing the game ends the demo recording. Honestly, it'd be easier to argue that mouselook is cheating because its not an intended feature and it can even break certain maps.

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I see saving as a substitute for difficulty settings since most people make maps for UV first I don't select the other difficulties as I don't want to feel like I'm missing something, so instead, the harder the map is the more often I save.

 

So no, I don't think that saving midlevel should count as cheating any more than playing on HNTR, you are just choosing how hard the game should be.

 

And on really long maps there's not really an option, having to start from the beginning after 30 minutes would just be insufferable.

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11 hours ago, Aku said:

i think it is a form of cheating to be honest, i think in bigger maps thou we should be granted a few saves but still have a limit to it.

 

It isn't cheating when the designers of the game intended for you to have access to it whenever you needed it.
 

Quote

TIP: Save your game and save it often. When you die, you're back to the beginning of the level, toting that little pistol again. That ain't good, especially after you progress to some of the tougher levels.


Nowadays that latter part won't matter for experienced players who know their way around and can regain most of their arsenal by the end, but to the less experienced and depending on the map it can be very difficult to play consecutively from scratch, even on some of the IWAD levels.

What is cheat-y however is save scumming. It's not only undoing every potentially challenging scenario and thus detrimental to your skill and understanding of the game but it's also very dangerous when abused, potentially putting you in unwinnable situations. Really, if you need to save that much that often and you aren't, say, a newbie at slaughtermaps, consider lowering the difficulty for starters.

And yes, there's always that exception to the rule now and again, even my own, with extremely big maps and with little to no keys spaced greatly out, further limiting when I can save, and there being maybe an emergency situation where I have to stop and get off of the game, you are doing yourself a favor by making a save then, not so much to save progress made but also saving your time.

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Posted (edited)

I only save at the start of a new level, unless I'm going for a continuous run. Makes beating the level a little more gratifying that way.

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I save at the beginning and only use midway saves if the maps are too big or difficult, I get tired easily and losing too much progress on something really turns me off.

Vanilla maps however, I'm so used to them by this point that I confidently play them without saving, with the exception of TNT and Plutonia.

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I don't have any particular system, although I typically try to use as few saves as possible, and only save if something ahead seems really dangerous (say, if a Cyberdemon suddenly pops up). However, if I realize that a particular map is very difficult (Sunder...), I typically go "oh, screw it" and start saving everywhere like crazy.

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I usually do end up working my way up to making saveless attempts at levels, but only after I've taken the time to learn & practice them with saves. In order to avoid accidentally creating an unwinnable gamestate, I use a 3-tier system:

 

Safe: Full health & plenty of ammo.

Unsafe: Either supplies are low, or I've passed a point-of-no-return and don't know how this'll turn out.

Mid-Battle: For when I've made a good opening play, but this fight is nowhere near over yet.

 

As others have said, aspiring to complete a saveless run of a level can be a fun self-imposed challenge, but it's not mandatory. Personally, whenever I encounter a 45-60 minute odyssey that's a really fun journey but concludes with a Cyberdemon splattering you, I just let it go rather than commit that kind of time into making repeated attempts.

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I never understood the notion that saving in a game where it's a standard feature is cheating. I could understand that using quicksaves when playing a NES game in an emulator would be cheating, but when it comes to playing Doom, the ability to save has been in the game since its initial release in 1993. And it's accessible from the pause menu to boot. How in the actual hell do you equate that to cheating?

 

Seriously, can someone explain this to me?

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On 4/7/2020 at 7:51 AM, CARRiON said:

Start of a map and before grabbing keys.

Just goes to show that the mechanic of opening up traps after grabbing keys is probably overused.

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Posted (edited)

I save frequently when I play. Not after each shot I fire, though. I did try to play a couple of maps recently without saving, and I found the longer I played, the more tense and nervous I was, because I wasn't looking forward to playing the whole thing again if I died. So I went back to saving, because I want to have fun.

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