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About latest discussion about Torm

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As I tried to reply at the original thread 2 times - and both times the thread was locked (before Torm's answer and now, after it) - I feel I deserve to voice my opinion as well - as a person working closely for years with Torm on "Blade of Agony" and as a person who was part of similar "credits" wars in Wolf3D community in recent years for art used in my older mods - till it got me for a while "rage-remove" most of my mods from moddb, and seriously consider quitting modding all together.

I since apologized to the community and changed my ways, and all have been settled - beside occasional community jokes about me "not knowing where art in my mods came from".
I have been also on the side of my art being used in a MAJOR top-Moddb mod without credit (which since was corrected in "Brutal Doom" art credits (not sure about Project Brutality even now)). I have for no moment suspected Mark to deliberately miscredit me for 10-years-old art, I assumed he just didn't know who made the "Double Resolution pack for Skulltag", and rightly so, simple PM to him solved the issue. Moreso - I was honored my art is used in such epic mod and would prefer it to be there - played, enjoyed and used by others (which is the top goal of any modding art) - even if he would refuse to credit me for it. I prefer more people to play my art and exposed to it - than a personal credit for those. But that's me. And still credit is better than lack of it and I'm all for giving proper credit when due.
I don't tend to suspect the worst intentions of people, to know their intentions or read their minds.
You want to know why Torm did that and that? Ask him. And that's all you can know.

You know how devoted he is to this free hobby. You know that he is not making any money out of it, even enough to cover his legit site expenses. He pays for BoA domain, it costs money. To earn from modding - means he has more money from it that he puts into it. And you had no proof for that. Money/donation remarks were just nasty. I have donation button on my dev. forum as well, so what? I didn't see a buck from it. I know Torm works for his living (just as I do), and modding is not for money. For money - we would all do indie games.


I've been through the situation Torm was under just now. I know how it feels and seems from both sides.
I want to tell you our side of the story.

First - a note about Easters. There are tons of Easters in old mods, games and movies that are now...obsolete and unnoticeable, sure to new generation. That's life. Nature of time. I don't think because of it - original Easter was not legit or needs to be urgently revisited now. This is too much to expect.
And if it's an issue - sure Torm is far from being the worst offender. I know how he respects Laz and his mods, and is inspired by those.

Now to our sides. We can admit we did wrong, and apologize to the community, change our ways. That's what we do/did and should do.
Each modder deserves a credit when due, and wish respect for reuse of his art. We all agree here, we are on the same side.

What is most painful for us in all those discussions (and I had tons of those on Wolf3D forum) is:

1. Lack of proportion. We still do and did alot of work from scratch, all those examples one after another sometimes make it look like all we do - is to steal others works and benefit from those. They diminish and ignore our hard work and devotion to modding - for free enjoyment of others.
And sometimes there is even profit claim?
I want to state clearly - both me and Torm do enough from scratch work, or pure-base edits, to even think of attributing other's work to ourselves. We don't need that, never needed.

2. Claims of intent. Attempt to claim you can read our minds and intents more than we do ourselves. Like we intentionally by evil intent wanted to stick our names over works of others and claim work of others to ourselves. This is not the case. I've never done that, I'm sure Torm is against this as well.
So what actually happens?

2.1 We have snippets on our comps, be it art (in my case) or map geometries (in case of Torm). Sitting on a comp for years, sadly (which we apologize for) without trace to their original makers. Downloaded from zdoom threads, released artpacks etc. Tons of places.
When I start a new mod - I don't go to rip other mods for art, intentionally ignoring their original known makers. I go to my old comp art folders to see good bases for enemies, scenery etc. And I was numerous times too lazy to seek the original makers (and for that I apologized). For art it's even bigger problem than for maps - alot of time it's known art used in many mods, and hard to trace the original mod/maker, they are floating around as community assets of a sorts.
It's not like I know person X made the art - and I want to deliberately miscredit him and stick my name over his hard works for the sake of it. We just lost trace and were too lazy. Didn't give it enough importance. Yes. All that is true and worth apology, but that's all it was.

2.2 When we put out credit for art - it's usually general art credit for a mod, and not a personal sticker for every art used or borrowed in the mod. It means all NEW art and art changes made specifically for that mod - was made by me. No other artist was developing this mod artwise - doing art for that particular mod.
Yes, proper credit for others is due (in secondary credits), all I say that team members who actively developed a mod are in higher credit priority. And it doesn't mean all art in the mod was made solely for that mod by their team members.

2.3 When we put credit on art or a map - we mean to credit our changes over it, not the original base - especially when original base it famous art/enemy/map known to most people in the community. We never intended - intentionally - for others to think we did all that from scratch or to attribute this known resource solely to us. That would be too stupid for us to do - to think, hope or dream it will go below the radar, the obvious similarity, the art base.
We don't do that. We never intended that. Modding - most of the time is editing other's prior work, all know that and assume that even before directly stated.
Sure for 8dir enemies - I know only a few people who can make 8dir enemy from scratch. No, we NEVER intended for others to think we did that known 8dir artbase from scratch (it's easy to notice the artbase, all modders know to do that in a sec from a glance (though it's more of a problem over time and in farther communities)). So even if miscredited (which deserves apology and fast correction when brought to our attention) - we never wanted to attribute their work to us. STEAL. LIE.
Noone here is waking up in the morning planning or willing to steal credit for other's hard work. We are modders who know well what a hard modding work is and how much it takes to make it, what talent, time and devotion. And we respect it.
I might not always have known who made the art - but I always know what I made from scratch and what I just edited. So I'd never intentionally claim I did a particular art from scratch - when I didn't.
I carelessly treated some known stuff as "community resource" - and apologized for that. But don't claim any of us wanted to "make it big and fame" over uncredited work of others, deliberately....and profit from it?

Credits are important thing, and needs to be there when due (same for artbase used as for edits, doesn't matter). We all agree. I just wanted to come against "mind/intentions" reading and total delegitimization of devoted modders. You want to know why we did what we did - ask us, and trust our sincere answers. And keep it in proportion and respect to all our other work and contribution to the community.
We missed a credit? One simple PM to us can solve that.


Edited by D00mJedi

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