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Mr.S Retro

Final Doomer - (minus) (Play Final Doomer on almost every source port)

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Posted (edited)

This is a DeHackEd port of final doomer because some computers are too slow to play any type of zdoom.

MOD IS INCOMPATIBLE WITH CHOCOLATE DOOM sorry.

PLEASE VISIT AND SUPPORT Yholl and Sgt.Shivers here!

FINALDOOMER-.zip

 

Now with plutonia and tnt weapon sets

Spoiler

doom00.png.e4ba94c42473018edabe57fdd518f4ad.pngdoom01.png.0b96d32c2d4ea528e553c62d9df5a165.pngdoom14.png.ed03e069a659f7a6801a741febe9268f.pngdoom03.png.f5de90bb98b1dff9651bd71ed30c458d.pngdoom13.png.b288dae37fcbb62b9fd5f1aefe22d8df.pngdoom16.png.15628d6fea506df85af241613064bb90.pngdoom02.png.cb7f4745391412fae0c4a98ee7afc3e7.png

 

Edited by Oppo1021

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Posted (edited)

Hey, pal, this is pretty nice!
(some screenies in your not zdoom port of choice would really improve the look of this post ;)
i tried it with doomretro and it plays pretty good!
only weap that feels strange is the ssg, but it works nicely in crowds and sponge monsters.

Will be any plutonia patch?
Its a neat punch of fresh air to play this in more conservative ports!

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Mini update adding 2 batch file launchers.

Use TNT.bat if you put the TNT IWAD in the PRBoom folder.

Use the other one if you put any IWAD other than the TNT IWAD in the PRBoom folder.

Plutonia will probably be here tomorrow.

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Posted (edited)

...Did you ask the original authors? 

And I see a beginner modder's mistake here. No, you do not need to include an ENTIRE source port package to let people run your conversion easier - a simple instruction will suffice.

Spoiler

By the way, if you want to attract more attention to your mod, edit your post title with something like
FINAL DOOMER - / Final Doomer converted to DEHACKED / VANILLA-COMPATIBLE

 

Edited by TheNoob_Gamer

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Just now, TheNoob_Gamer said:

...Did you ask the original authors? 

And I see a beginner modder's mistake here. No, you do not need to include an ENTIRE source port package to let people run your conversion easier - a simple instruction will suffice.

  Reveal hidden contents

By the way, if you want to attract more attention to your mod, edit your post title with something like
FINAL DOOMER - / Final Doomer converted to DEHACKED / VANILLA-COMPATIBLE

 


I included the source port for ease of access If ya' don't want the source port download the mod only version.

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1 minute ago, Oppo1021 said:


I included the source port for ease of access If ya' don't want the source port download the mod only version.

Yes, I know it's for easier access. But you didn't specifically mentioned that you included an entire PRBoom+ build, and again, anyone who's familiar with (Doom) modding wouldn't even do that because source ports can sometime be bloated and often outdated. All I'm asking is simply update your readme file, telling users how to run the mod.

Anyway, my actual thoughts on your mod (very critical, please don't read if you are in a bad mood)

Spoiler
  • You seems to have nailed down the basic principles, tips and tricks of vanilla (?) modding. That's good.
  • Weapons mechanic are fine, most closely resemblanced their original counterparts.
  • The files are clean.

The bad, where I will be an asshole.

 

  • The BFG and Plasma Rifle feel like they are merely reskinned weapons. (more on why below)
  •  The mod either crashes or won't work properly on MANY source ports I tested (this include Crispy Doom and initially PRBoom+) and I really don't know what's the cause of this.
  • While you have almost successfully replicated the weapons' mechanics, they HUGELY lack feedback and don't feel really good to fire, due to the lack of animations and sounds. If you are aiming to convert all of Final Doomer's weaponry sometime in the future, please switch to some patch settings like MBF or Doom Retro/Crispy, and learn more about weapon frames. See the below video (a very good one, by the way) for an example of bad gun feedback. (around 0:54)

4.5/10. Not bad, but not too good from an amateur Dehacked editor - keep on experimenting and trying.

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Just now, TheNoob_Gamer said:

Yes, I know it's for easier access. But you didn't specifically mentioned that you included an entire PRBoom+ build, and again, anyone who's familiar with (Doom) modding wouldn't even do that because source ports can sometime be bloated and often outdated. All I'm asking is simply update your readme file, telling users how to run the mod.

Anyway, my actual thoughts on your mod (very critical, please don't read if you are in a bad mood)

  Hide contents
  • You seems to have nailed down the basic principles, tips and tricks of vanilla (?) modding. That's good.
  • Weapons mechanic are fine, most closely resemblanced their original counterparts.
  • The files are clean.

The bad, where I will be an asshole.

 

  • The BFG and Plasma Rifle feel like they are merely reskinned weapons. (more on why below)
  •  The mod either crashes or won't work properly on MANY source ports I tested (this include Crispy Doom and initially PRBoom+) and I really don't know what's the cause of this.
  • While you have almost successfully replicated the weapons' mechanics, they HUGELY lack feedback and don't feel really good to fire, due to the lack of animations and sounds. If you are aiming to convert all of Final Doomer's weaponry sometime in the future, please switch to some patch settings like MBF or Doom Retro/Crispy, and learn more about weapon frames. See the below video (a very good one, by the way) for an example of bad gun feedback. (around 0:54)

4.5/10. Not bad, but not too good from an amateur Dehacked editor - keep on experimenting and trying.

I've been DeHackEd modding for 3 days sorry for my inexperience.

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Oh cool, I was actually considering taking a whack at something like this myself. Not too shabby, considering what's here, but there's certainly some room for improvement. Hey, if you want some help, I could certainly give you some tips and help ya where I can, since I'm actually relatively familiar with DeHacked and interested in what you're doing. Feel free to DM me if you wanna collaborate! Regardless, I'm pretty interested to see what you got planned for the other weapon sets

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2 hours ago, TheNoob_Gamer said:

The feedback suggestion

I agree wholeheartedly with this suggestion, and somewhat greatly to the video posted. The guns damage or whatever it does is simply insignificant compared to the feedback it gives. Does it satisfy you to fire it? Does it shake in your hand a little bit, due to recoil or just powering up or anything really, depending on the gun of course. The visual flare adds a lot.

 

On another note, the king of shotguns is not Doom 2's, but Blood's. Doom 2's feedback is comparable to the shotgun shown in that video in 0:54. Honestly almost all of Blood's weapons are way more satisfying to use in general and I believe you can draw a good deal of inspiration in terms of how to move frames from that, or really just about any mod made by competent weapon modders like wildweasel for example. (Which the shotgun shown to be a good example in that video is from)

 

Blood's shotgun here for reference: https://youtu.be/pkKcrN2A6Mk?t=30

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Posted (edited)

We all start somewhere - to be honest, when I first start messing around with Dehacked I was unable to understand many of its features and ended up broking everything.

9 hours ago, Oppo1021 said:

@TheNoob_Gamer How would I add extra frames to weapon animations? I tried the best I could do to make the animations good.

See VGA's Smooth Weapons pack/my mod/fraggle's vanilla smooth weapons if you want to start adding your own frames.

For now, I'll use the pistol from fraggle's mod and will put everything in spoiler to avoid spamming.

I will also using bonnie's tutorial to make my day easier. Text marked in italic is bonnie's while normal is mine.

Spoiler
  1. Choose your engine and set your iwad + any pwads.
    • Boom has a major advantage over regular Doom 1.9 in the ability to change the action of any state, which is huge if you're actually editing them (like you are now). You can also edit par times in Boom. If that didn't make sense to you, choose Boom. Otherwise, stick with Doom 1.9.
      • You can change the engine by saving and using "File -> Open as" and reopening your file. Of course, engine-specific changes will probably be lost, if it even lets you change it by that point.
    • The pwads will allow you to see your custom sprites and stuff in whacked4 itself, which is a massive help when doing heavy state editing, especially when you add additional frames to existing spritesheets. MAKE SURE TO ADD YOUR NECESSARY FRAMES/GRAPHICS FIRST BEFORE PROCEEDING!!!

Vanilla Doom actually didn't have much of free states for you to use (only 5, and even changing these break the game). 

Spoiler
  • To find these states, click "Filter" at the top, and scroll all the way up. It's the very first option, "Unused".
  • These are states that never get called by an initialized state, so they have no ties or connections to anything else in the game, making them super safe and easy to use! Always check back here if you lose track of your states or cut some off of another thing.
  • An "initialized state" is a term I just made up. Each thing and weapon in the game has certain states that it defaults to when it spawns, it initializes them if you will. You'll notice that 45 actually calls upon 46, but is still unused, because it isn't tied back to an initialized state or a hardcoded state, such as state 266, which is hardcoded to be used by the archvile when resurrecting stuff.
  • Examples of initialized states for monsters would be what state to call it spawns, flinches, dies, or when it's gibbed, resurrected, etc. Examples for weapons would be what state to call when you pull out the weapon, put it away, when the player presses fire, etc.


5 states of course aren't enough, so here's where you could get more from.
 

Spoiler
  • Pain Elemental has resurrect frames despite Archviles being unable to revive them normally - they have to be crushed in order to be resurrected (as ghosts). So you can take these if you really hate respawning Pain Elementals. (state 720-725)
  • You can replace SS Nazis' stats and other properties to match zombiemen/shotgunners/chaingunners'; resulting in a shitload of free states (frame 726-762)
  • Same with Commander Keen.

This is why I said use something like MBF, as you can only change a state's Codepointer if it was available within that state already, while you can assign Codeponters to any states from Boom to above. And since MBF introduces a coop dog + some beta stuff that you won't need ingame, you have tons of free states that you can use however you wanted. (968-1075)

 

Here we have the pistol as an example.

Capture.PNG.149a81f67d7b8256015ce40247d24935.PNG

 

Spoiler
On 2/24/2018 at 9:25 AM, bonnie said:

 

  1. You'll notice that each little row has a bunch of information, but you can ignore most of it. The most important columns are "Dur" (duration of a state in tics) and "Action" (the specific action for a state).
    • Another bit that may be of use is "Lit", which refers to the sprite having the always fullbright flag turned on, as denoted by an X.
      • You'll notice that state 17, "PISFA" (more on that name later), is lit. Clicking it on reveals that it's actually the muzzle flash for the pistol.
  2. After checking out the different states that the pistol uses, you should notice some important information on the left:
    1. Sprite - The determines the specific spritesheet used for this state. The pistol uses PISG. Clicking on the little dots to the right will pop up a window showing the various spritesheets you can select.
    2. Frame - This denotes the actual frame from your selected spritesheet that will be used for this state. This one has little arrows you can use, so you can actually scroll through each frame of the spritesheet to pick the one you want.
      • You can also see the selected frame for each state under "Frm".
        • The exact name for each is listed under "Name".
      • Next to this is a radio button for the fullbright flag.
    3. Next state - Very important! This denotes what state is going to be called after this one is finished! Set this to 0 if you want the state to stop updating when it reaches it. You'll be using this one soon!
    4. Duration - How long the state lasts, in tics. For reference, 30 35 doom tics = 1 second (I think). For further reference, the delay after you stop firing a plasma rifle is 20 tics.
    5. Action - Also quite important! This tells the state what to actually do when it's called!
    6. Restore - This will reset a state to its defaults, in case you wanna go crazy messing around with each state, which I strongly advise you to do, in order to get a feel for everything! We'll talk more about some of the actions later.
      • The unused sections above don't seem to do anything, as you might guess.

The frames we will be talking about are 

Spoiler
  1. PISGA0
  2. PISGB0
  3. PISGC0
  4. PISGD0
  5. PISGE0
  6. PISGF0 (muzzle flash)

 

Here is how 2D graphic interpolation usually works, because I'm dumb

Spoiler

Frame X (3 tics) - Frame Y (3 tics) - Frame Z (3 tics)

when each frame is interpolated x4, the result will be
Frame A (1 tic) - Frame B (1 tic) - Frame C (1 tic) - Frame D (1 tic) - Frame E (1 tic) - all the way to frame I (1 tic)

in the resulting animation

A, D and G are X, Y, Z,

where B, C, E, F, H, I are smooth frames that fill the 3 tic duration in between.

The same works in Doom.
Besides the things listed above, the states/frames that follow the "fire weapon" state to the "ReFire" state are also necessary for an interpolated weapon. The ReFire state then need to be connected to the "WeaponReady state" to make the weapon stop disappearing after you are done using it.

Spoiler

Originally, Doom's pistol has only 3 firing states

this include the FirePistol state and the ReFire state.

Each states last for

  1. FirePistol (PISGB0) - 6 tics (state 14)
  2. The in-between/recoil frame (PISGC0) - 4 tics (state 15) 
  3. The "back to normal state"/"gun can be fired again" state (PISGB0) - 5 tics. (state 16)
  4. The resting state (PISGA0) - state 10.

As you can see, the pistol only used 2 frames when firing, and each state took a long time to finish.

 

The image above ultilized the durations box, the unused (or cleverly taken out) states and the additional frames/graphics, resulting in a much better-looking pistol.

  1. FirePistol (PISGB0) - 2 tics (state 14) (muzzle flash state 17-892 start playing, 1-2 tics respectively)
  2. In-between/recoil frame #1 (PISGC0) - 2 tics (state 15)
  3. In-between/recoil frame #2 (PISGE0) - 2 tics (state 16) 
  4. In-between/recoil frame (lowering) #3 (PISGD0) - 2 tics (state 45)
  5. In-between/recoil frame (lowering) #4 (PISGB0) - 2 tics (state 46)
  6. "Back to normal"/"Gun can be fired again" state (PISGA0) - 5 tics (state 887)
  7. The resting state (PISGA0) - state 10.

The refiring state's duration is kept intact to prevent the weapon from chewing through the player's ammo,

while the firing state's duration is reduced and the in-between frame is spitted to make sprites less choppier.

You can interpolate sprites however you want, but the overall duration of these sprites must match their original counterparts.

Example:

The original pistol last for 6+4 = 10 tics.

The smooth pistol last for 2+2+2+2+2=10 tics.

Both of these weapons' Refire state last for 5 tics.

Sprite alignments also matter, especially in vanilla. You could end up with some hilarious results if you accidentally place a shotgun sprite at the edge of the screen.

TLDR: Master the core concepts of sprite-frame-next state-durations (measure in tics) and you will get to know more cool stuff about Dehacked.

 

Original answer - has some bits of misinformations, and mainly covers how to modify pistol's damage, but I recommend this if you are willing to dig deeper in this editing tool.

Have fun and good luck.

 

 

Edited by TheNoob_Gamer : Seems like you have asked the authors.

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3 hours ago, Oppo1021 said:

It's gone, Yholl does not want it up.


Uh, kinda sad to heard this, i would really like to make my way throught final doom duology with new guns in a retro fashion, just for add things around.

 

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Awesome! Thanks god this is back! This needed to be in more conservative source ports.
Aside from the cheers, i found that the tnt side chainsaw doesn't work... or i don't use as intended. Anyway, i tried to attack a pinky with the old chainsaw action, and nothing happened besides the weapon was glowing.

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15 minutes ago, P41R47 said:

Awesome! Thanks god this is back! This needed to be in more conservative source ports.
Aside from the cheers, i found that the tnt side chainsaw doesn't work... or i don't use as intended. Anyway, i tried to attack a pinky with the old chainsaw action, and nothing happened besides the weapon was glowing.

The halderman device in TNT in FINALDOOMER+ can defend you from enemies and hazards aswell as make light.

I can't make it defend you or give you a rad suit so I made it a light.

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Posted (edited)

Also I will be completely rewriting the TNT weaponset to be cleaner and better. And if ya' pay attention you will see that plutonia weapons have smooth animations, I will make TNT smooth aswell

Edited by Oppo1021

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Oh, a killing light! Awesome!

...

i don't think a flashlight to be of much use in sourceports that doesn't have much darkness. I don't want to talk for everyone, but vanilla to boom doomers plays with default gamma or a little over or a little down. So a flashlight doesn't have soo much use, ok, some TNT maps are more dark than normal doom maps, but having a flashlight and then changing to another weapon take a lot of time.
I know you are trying to port the original finaldoomer, but talk with the original autors if they let you change the halderman device a little, to at least, making it useful in some way.

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