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Zekerlad

Would you consider the jump and crouch options as a cheat?

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Posted (edited)

I have set keys to jump and crouch and I have noticed that it pretty much allows you to skip some levels. In the Waste Tunnels you can jump and crouch to get to the end without even needing any of the other keys except for the yellow one which is given to you at the end anyway. I don't think most of the maps really compensate for it either because I have been able to skip a good portion of maps just by jumping and then crouching to get through windows. 

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Posted (edited)

Depends on what I play. I don't use it on playing classic Doom and Doom mods where it's not intended - unless I play it with Brutal Doom or Project Brutality (or replay some mod for 10th time and just want to have fun). 

It especially got worse with "Project Brutality" edge climbing, after that you feel so much limited on normal maps.

Because Brutal Doom/Brutality for me is about gore, pace, adrenaline and action, not map integrity.

If I would want to play those maps as intended - I wouldn't use Brutal Doom/Brutality on those. As by that I already change too much to really care of proper path.

 

Crouch is barely useful, jumping is more....but auto edge climbing of Brutality just Rocks.

Recently I catch myself playing new mods directly on Brutality, before even experiencing those as intended first.
Just a week ago I played Master Levels for the first time - and did that directly on Brutality...normal Doom seems a bit...slow after those adrenaline and gore levels. Did the same for some other mods lately.

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Since it facilitates getting secrets, skipping parts of the map, making enemies not able to hit you... it's definitely a cheat, unless whatever maps you're playing were made with it in mind.

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Depends on the map. On ZDoom maps, they are commonly designed with those in mind, but in vanilla (Doom/Boom/MBF) maps, they are almost always designed without those in mind. In which case, they often break the intended experience, but cheating can be fun sometimes :P Do play without them on a first playthrough though, just to get a feeling for what the intended experience is.

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If it's not required for the map then yes it's completely cheating. I find crouch is very underutilized from what I've seen if only because really, what's stopping you from just crouching all the projectiles coming your way?

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46 minutes ago, Lila Feuer said:

If it's not required for the map then yes it's completely cheating. I find crouch is very underutilized from what I've seen if only because really, what's stopping you from just crouching all the projectiles coming your way?

I agree the crouch does make things easier, for some reason it feels a little bit faster moving around crouched too, I dunno it could just be me though. I try not to rely on it though as it makes things too easy at times. I guess I am just rambling at this point, either way I agree.

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I only think of it as cheating if you're sequence breaking with it.  But in forced damage scenarios (slime rivers without radsuits, Barons in tight corridors with no room to dodge projectiles), I don't think so.

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I'll admit, I do jump from time to time in vanilla maps... if I'm running in an empty room and get bored. Using it as an actual mobility tool, yeah that's definitely cheating unless the WAD is designed with it in mind. The only time I use jumping for something like that is when I don't feel like taking .5 seconds to walk around to the front of a staircase and hop up onto the side.

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Posted (edited)

Not a cheat, more like a sin against vanilla compatibility. If it's about playing maps intended for advanced sourceports, then jumping and crouching are expected unless the author states (or enforces) not to use those features.

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Unless intended for the mapset, I try to avoid jumping and crouching as much as I can. I don't really care if I use freelook or not, though I don't use it much in vanilla or boom mapsets. But if I feel like playing a little differently, I do jump and crouch to see how much of a map I can skip or just rush for fun.

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Posted (edited)

@Zekerlad, It depends on when and what the wad was designed for.

eg: if it's a vanilla wad created specifically for vanilla Doom or Doom2 then yeah, I'd say it's considered cheating if you're playing the wad in a modern source port with jump and crouch enabled.

As well as if you were to use the BFG with mouse aim and then shoot at the ground to kill the monsters or a DM opponent for example.

So basically the options are features and/or fairness, which is also sometimes where the readme file comes in to play. ;) 

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Posted (edited)

In Vanilla, and Boom compatible maps, jumping and crouching are not possible in their respective engines without modification so jumping is at best not intended behavior and at worst an exploit that could be considered cheating. When it comes to maps for more advanced ports that allow jumping by default, such as Gzdoom, generally the author will state whether jumping and crouching are allowed. I'll generally assume it is prohibited if the author doesn't specify either way.

 

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Some GZDoom-specific maps are designed for it, so yes, sometimes.

 

However, I tend not to use it even if I can. As others have said here, vanilla and many custom maps were never intended for it's use and are more satisfying to play as such.

 

Freelook/aim is a whole other debate though...

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Rocket jumping straight to the exit is the only proper way to play MAP29.

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12 hours ago, ETTiNGRiNDER said:

In the vanilla levels, yes.

Same here.

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The problem with crouching is that it makes most monster projectiles a joke, completely negating whatever gameplay and fight scenarios the author had in mind. Pls don't crouch.

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Posted (edited)

That really depends on how it is used. Like, if it's to shave off one second of an elevator ride in a casual playthrough, or make backtracking to scrounge up some ammo a little bit faster and therefore less tedious, I'm not gonna consider it a cheat. I'm not recording a speedrun, I'm not gonna brag that making the dilly-dallying slightly shorter allowed me to finish in less than 40 minutes a map that DSDA runs all complete in less in than 10.

 

Stuff like using crouch to doge missiles, though? Yes, that's a cheat. Or using a jump to sequence break in a way not normally possible in a map not intended for jumping, yeah, that's a cheat, okay. I don't do either of those things, though. I'm kind of a completionist so sequence breaking doesn't appeal to me anyway; and for crouch-dodging I just never think to do it even when maps explicitly allow and encourage crouching.

 

The cheat I might do with jump is using it to avoid getting too crowded in huge fights. Sometimes even escaping a closed arena, if the design makes it possible. Note that with jump disabled I can still attempt this with arch-viles for example...

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Posted (edited)

Only if the map isn't designed around those mechanics, as in vanilla and (most) Boom-compatible mapsets. I do play mostly with GZDoom, and I do have the jump/crouch keys bound, but I refrain from using them in maps where they're clearly not meant to be used. But then again, most modern vanilla/Boom map(set)s disable jumping and crouching in (Z)MAPINFO either way, so that sort of enforces the notion that they're meant to be played without those mechanics.

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That depends. If the map creator doesn't out right state no then I will use them on occasion if the map isn't well designed. Flipside however, I try not to use jumping and crouching too often nowadays so that I actually face the challenge head on (and die in the process).

 

Now if I'm playing a slaughter map, first off I'd be using La Tailor Girl for the cheese of it and 2 yeah I'm abusing jumping/crouching to my hearts content. XD

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On 4/10/2020 at 2:27 AM, doomsucksass said:

YES, it breaks maps, why are you wording it like it's something in vanilla.

Honestly, I dunno why I worded it like that, sorry if it was confusing, it's just something that I turned on and forgot about after a while, so it's pretty much part of vanilla for me, despite me rarely using it in the vanilla maps. 

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there are so many mods and wads for DOOM that the rules for each change but within the bounds of pure vanilla doom then jumping, crouching, and freelook are all cheating. features like this allow for segment-breaking, projectile dodging, and aiming not possible or thought of during the particular wads development. for example; the icon of sin fight is trivialized by freelook, and so are certain secrets (like those in suburbs.)

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I would consider it cheating if one used jumping or crouching to break sequences, or if one overrides the (Z)MAPINFO. Less of a cheat than giving yourself all of the weapons or activating degreelessness mode but still, naughty.

I will however defend freelook without autoaim as legitimate gameplay, if not vanilla.

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Posted (edited)

Freelook can be considered cheating if you use it to shoot a switch you're not supposed to shoot before reaching a higher area, or like tgawt said, Icon of Sin.

Edited by sluggard

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6 minutes ago, sluggard said:

Freelook can be considered cheating if you use it to shoot a switch you're not supposed to shoot before reaching a higher area, or like tgawt said, Icon of Sin.


I'd file that under sequence breaking.

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