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Posted (edited)

Doom has a very great story, but unfortunately also massive inconsistencies.

 

1. Argent Energy: According to Doom 2016, the primary source of argent energy are the souls of tormented wraiths. Eternal now tells a completely different story, that argent energy comes from the souls of the dead + wraith energy created in huge factories (it also tells that with the fall of the wraiths, agrent d'nur loses its battle between hell because they have no longer wraith energy. So Argent energy can never be created?). There is no clue how the two versions are connected.

 

2 Icon of sin: In Doom 2 the slayer kills the icon. After the events of doom 64 (which are placed after doom 2) he gets to argent d'nur, where the war with the demons begins and from the heart of valens son the icon of sin is born. Who was the icon then in doom 2? You might think there are two icons, but khan maykr says she will "resurrect" the icon, so it must have died before (which points to doom 2, but at this time, the icon was not created).

 

3. Spectre: This is only a small thing, but in doom 2016 it is mentioned that spectre originated from genetical modification by the UAC. in Eternal however, it is said that they were created by priests.

 

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35 minutes ago, Namelessone said:

1. Argent Energy: According to Doom 2016, the primary source of argent energy are the souls of tormented wraiths. Eternal now tells a completely different story, that argent energy comes from the souls of the dead + wraith energy created in huge factories (it also tells that with the fall of the wraiths, agrent d'nur loses its battle between hell because they have no longer wraith energy. So Argent energy can never be created?). There is no clue how the two versions are connected. 

 

The first point isn't really a plot hole. They're just expanding upon the origin. That being said, I don't think 2016 lore established a concrete origin for Argent Energy. The tormented Wraiths were only mentioned to be powering The Well.

 

Argent D'Nur "lost" the Wraiths because they were corrupted by the Hell Priests due to the Betrayer's actions. Argent Energy can still be created, but only by Hell:

 

"The bargain was struck thus: for the return of the Betrayer's only son, lost on the battlefield, Deag Grav must be taken to the source of their power, the Elemental Wraiths. Lead there by the wretched Betrayer, Deag Grav and his cabal set a curse upon the Wraiths as they slept, and used their essence for our own devices. With the power of the Wraiths they formed The Well, that which brings us upon our enemies. Thus, the city of Argent and their false gods fell under the unholy might of the Hell priests."

 

47 minutes ago, Namelessone said:

2 Icon of sin: In Doom 2 the slayer kills the icon. After the events of doom 64 (which are placed after doom 2) he gets to argent d'nur, where the war with the demons begins and from the heart of valens son the icon of sin is born. Who was the icon then in doom 2? You might think there are two icons, but khan maykr says she will "resurrect" the icon, so it must have died before (which points to doom 2, but at this time, the icon was not created). 

 

This is from the Icon of Sin's Codex entry:

 

"Born from the tortured spirit of the Betrayer's son, it was by Hell's unholy design that the Icon of Sin was given flesh. The fearsome Titan, forged from the essence of mortal suffering, once bore a human soul - a soul now transmogrified and entombed within the still beating heart of its former self. The Betrayer, seeking to free his son from eternal torment within the depths of Hell, made an agreement - a pact sealed by the black fates of darkness - that promised to grant his son the chance to return from death. The son would live again, but not as a human - in Hell's endless cruelty, the son was damned to become the Icon, an inhuman existence bound only to its former humanity by the now disembodied, undying mortal heart."

 

Based on the bold parts, I think the Icon "existed" before (maybe as a wall texture like in Doom II or Doom 2016) but was given a physical form when the Betrayer's son "became" it, explaining the "given flesh" bit. According to a 2016 Codex, the Icon was "asleep", presumably after the fall of Argent D'Nur:

 

"Imagine yourself worshipping before the Icon of Sin, in awe of its splendor even as it sleeps till the Call of Ages comes."

 

We next see the Icon in Urdak, being operated upon by the Maykrs. It's possible that the Icon's "slumber" was willed by the Khan Maykr so that it could be used at a later time. That would explain why such a powerful force of Hell is "asleep" and why it's on Urdak. To resurrect the Icon could also mean to re-awaken it.

 

The Icon in Doom II is likely its appearance before it was "given flesh".

 

1 hour ago, Namelessone said:

3. Spectre: This is only a small thing, but in doom 2016 it is mentioned that spectre originated from genetical modification by the UAC. in Eternal however, it is said that they were created by priests.

 

I actually figured the Eternal Spectre's Codex was meant to be a joke of sorts. The Eternal entry makes it seem like the warlocks performed dark and horrific forbidden rituals that resulted in unspeakable abominations, whereas in reality (2016's entry) it's just a genetically modified Pinky with a Cacodemon's ocular nerve transplanted.

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2 minutes ago, AtimZarr1 said:

I actually figured the Eternal Spectre's Codex was meant to be a joke of sorts. The Eternal entry makes it seem like the warlocks performed dark and horrific forbidden rituals that resulted in unspeakable abominations, whereas in reality (2016's entry) it's just a genetically modified Pinky with a Cacodemon's ocular nerve transplanted.

 

Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

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So did the human race (on earth) originate from the Argenta people (sentinel prime, Taras nabad, argent dnur)?

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Posted (edited)

@AtimZarr1 

The origin of the Spectre mentioned in the 2016 codex actually doesn't make any sense. It claims that the Pinky that was implanted with the Cacodemon's ocular nerve escaped, bred, and thus passed on this modification - that is not how genetics work. If I get a liver transplant, my kids will not have the liver genes of the person who gave me the liver - they will have the liver genes I was born with. This is actually a variation on a disproven hypothesis to explain evolution, called Lamarckian inheritance. We now know that evolution operates via natural selection, also called "Darwinian" evolution, although that term is usually only used by creationists "intelligent design" proponents.

Ever since I first read that codex entry it bugged the hell out of me.

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1 hour ago, Phobos Anomaly said:

Ever since I first read that codex entry it bugged the hell out of me.

 

Maybe demons work differently and can absorb certain stuff from other demons into their genome.  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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2 minutes ago, ptoing said:

 

Maybe demons work differently and can absorb certain stuff from other demons into their genome.  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

It's possible. I think the most likely reason is that whoever wrote that wanted to come up with a scientifically plausible explanation for the Spectre's abilities, but didn't actually have a very good understanding of genetics. If they had, they likely would have come up with something different, like it being a special breed or something along those lines. Maybe this error was pointed out to them, and they retconned it with the explanation we find in the Eternal codex.  

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2 hours ago, Phobos Anomaly said:

It's possible. I think the most likely reason is that whoever wrote that wanted to come up with a scientifically plausible explanation for the Spectre's abilities, but didn't actually have a very good understanding of genetics.

Weird, trying to rationally explain how Demons that drop shiny pickups when they die and shine when they get staggered work.

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5 minutes ago, Senor500 said:

Weird, trying to rationally explain how Demons that drop shiny pickups when they die and shine when they get staggered work.

 

Hey, that's what they tried to do with the codex entry, not me.

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There's more than one way to  skin a cat  give a pinky demon an invisibility cloak.

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What I couldn't help noticing is that all of the human locations on Earth, like the opening level, the Super Gore Nest, and the fragmented bits of UAC base floating in space over Mars... are all powered, so that machinery operates, signs light up and so on despite severances all over the place, especially the UAC base in space.

 

How, exactly?

 

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Posted (edited)

While we're nitpicking the wonky science, there was one thing that leapt out at me in the codex entry about the Doom Hunters. Inside it claims that the creatures from which they are created, the Agaddon Hunters, have been carbon dated to 80 million years ago, before the evolution of complex life.

Firstly, carbon-14 is only good for dating things younger than 50,000 years. There are other radiometric dating methods that can be used so fixing this error would only require a minor edit of the Doom Hunter Codex entry. More grievous though is the assertion that complex life had not evolved 80 million years ago. That is complete cack, 80 million years ago is slap bang in the middle of the Cretaceous.

Secondly, the Agaddon Hunters are said to be genetically related to Earthly life. Which is rather contradicts the idea that they evolved before complex life, since they obviously are complex life forms themselves. Evolution is a population-based phenomenon, so there must have been previous populations of proto-Hunters from which the Agaddons must have evolved. Unless a wizard Hell Priest did it.

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11 minutes ago, Foebane72 said:

What I couldn't help noticing is that all of the human locations on Earth, like the opening level, the Super Gore Nest, and the fragmented bits of UAC base floating in space over Mars... are all powered, so that machinery operates, signs light up and so on despite severances all over the place, especially the UAC base in space.

 

How, exactly?

 


A distributed system of backup batteries? Wireless power transfer?

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1 hour ago, NoXion said:

A distributed system of backup batteries? Wireless power transfer?

 

I did think of Argent energy, but I'm not exactly certain why plain old electricity is just no good for future society.

 

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11 hours ago, Phobos Anomaly said:

@AtimZarr1 

The origin of the Spectre mentioned in the 2016 codex actually doesn't make any sense. It claims that the Pinky that was implanted with the Cacodemon's ocular nerve escaped, bred, and thus passed on this modification - that is not how genetics work. If I get a liver transplant, my kids will not have the liver genes of the person who gave me the liver - they will have the liver genes I was born with. This is actually a variation on a disproven hypothesis to explain evolution, called Lamarckian inheritance. We now know that evolution operates via natural selection, also called "Darwinian" evolution, although that term is usually only used by creationists "intelligent design" proponents.

Ever since I first read that codex entry it bugged the hell out of me.

 

Can't believe I missed that, my genetics professor would've been disappointed.

 

Maybe the ancient scriptures that the warlocks found described the procedure used to modify Pinkies, and so they manually created each Spectre with no breeding involved.

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Just now, Foebane72 said:

 

I did think of Argent energy, but I'm not exactly certain why plain old electricity is just no good for future society.

 


My impression is that Earth before the Hell invasion didn't use Argent energy as a replacement for electricity, but as another way of generating it.

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Pretty much the way of nuclear power, it would need conversion...

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I think it says in some codex entries in 2016 that demons breed(summoner/imp, spectre) but in eternal you see where soulless human husks transform transform into demons In nekrevol. Do they breed, are they all transformed humans, or both?

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, bobbyfish said:

I think it says in some codex entries in 2016 that demons breed(summoner/imp, spectre) but in eternal you see where soulless human husks transform transform into demons In nekrevol. Do they breed, are they all transformed humans, or both?


Possibly both.

(caution, the following may be total fan-wank)

My understanding is that the damned in Hell are slowly and agonisingly transformed simply by existing in that dimension. It seems that the Dark Lords can influence this process in directions that they find useful, thus being able to produce a variety of troops for their legions. So it makes sense that they would want to speed this process up somehow. Map E2M7 "Spawning Vats" suggests that demons can be straight-up manufactured, although it is unclear if Hell had access to this before their first known invasion of Earthly reality, or whether it was tech that the forces of Hell stole or scavenged from the UAC.

Even if Hell had access to spawning vats previously, it's possible that such a process has drawbacks that would encourage Hell's generals to find other means of expanding their legions. Perhaps making demons with spawning vats is like making wine; you can't produce the good stuff quickly. But hey, those mortals don't need spawning vats to make more of themselves, and they do it so damned quickly; why not copy that? So Hell's top magisters pull out all the stops to refine their carnomancy to the point where they can get a demon species to breed true. Now the Legions of Hell can replenish their ranks that much more quickly, without relying on pale vat-grown imitations or having to wait centuries just to make a single imp.

The whole Argent energy process must have come as a most wondrous miracle to the Dark Lords, promising as it did an endless supply of rapidly created demons, with none of the drawbacks of using the spawning vats. As a bonus the deal with Urdak means that Hell would have ever-more worlds to conquer and devastate.

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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, bobbyfish said:

I think it says in some codex entries in 2016 that demons breed(summoner/imp, spectre) but in eternal you see where soulless human husks transform transform into demons In nekrevol. Do they breed, are they all transformed humans, or both?

I think that mentioning the zombies as "once human underlings" in the codex is indication that others are not.

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12 hours ago, Deimos said:

I think that mentioning the zombies as "once human underlings" in the codex is indication that others are not.

 

I think it's confusion regarding the "Fuel the Eternal Flame" entries:

 

"The transformation of mortal creature into demon is a laggard and gradual process, one that can take eons to transpire without the catalyst of Argenta intervention. The victim is left to maunder in the shadow land for years uncounted, where over ageless time they transform into demon. During their nightmarish journey the ethereal soul slowly drains from the body, and in that dark realm the substance of mortal life is manifest as matter. It gathers in pools of volatile aura found all over Hell. Demon-kind call these pools The Well, and use them to invigorate themselves for battle."

 

"Once the Evulsor has done its deed and the soul has been extracted, the victim's body is ejected into the wasteland where, as before our cunning meddling, it becomes demon over time."

 

"The truth had been uncovered, that all beings who found their end by the demonic horde would become a vassal of the Hellscape, their flesh in time twisted into the very demons we fight, their souls extracted to create the Essence that powers their world...and ours. The victims were the enemy, and the enemy would become us." - this one's a Sentinel entry

 

"While most victims exposed to Argent biowaves will expire without further effect, some subjects will absorb traces of Argent Energy and enter a state of posthumous vigor." - This is from the Possessed's 2016 entry

 

The 2016 entry regarding the Possessed enemies highlight how they were zombified by exposure to Argent Energy. It's how Revenants are created too. Conversely, the Eternal lore seems to be about how demons themselves are "formed" instead, where within the Hellscape, a soulless victim's flesh is twisted into that of a demon over time. At the same time, some demons do seem to "descend" from others, for example the Archvile is said to have descended from "the eldest race of demons", the Cacodemon bearing resemblance to cycloptic titans, Prowlers believed to be "peripherally descendant to the lesser Imp broodling", etc.

 

I think Eternal's "demon transformation" process might be referring to creation of lesser demons like Imps. They appear humanoid, are described to have only limited intelligence, and as Hell conquers countless realms, are also great in number. Prowlers and Summoners could also be transformations of more powerful individuals, relative to imps, into demon. I believe most of the diagrams attached to Sentinel lore show horned humanoid-like demons invading Argent D'Nur, resembling 1993's cover art demons. I don't think the Sentinel lore show them fighting any non-humanoid or more bestial demons, like Pinkies or Cacodemons.

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