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Mr. Impso

thoughts on the Kahn Maykr?

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Posted (edited)

Personally, out of all the bosses, I thought it was a little bullshit. 
I mean she's a worthy boss fight, I still had fun, but there are two things that really made it a slog for me. 
1: the fact that to refill ammo you have to headshot the maykr drones. Pc players might have not had such a problem with this. I'm on console, and usually I could pull off precision shots thanks to what seems to be slightly generous hitboxes. But put me in a situation where I have to pull of precision shots under duress? nuh-uh. 
2: the fact she coats like 95% of the arena in damaging energy, forcing you in a confined space where she and her drones will start to lay the smackdown on you in a big way. 
also I kinda wish the doom slayer was the one to deliver the final blow. the entire game I was hoping there was a gory fate waiting for her but nope. 

 

Edited by Mr. Impso

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changed the topic because I'm kind of interested in all your opinions of the Khan Mayker as a character/villain. 
Obviously they're trying to make her kind of a tragic villain, trying to save her home, but they just didn't drive it home enough. 
if you want to make me feel even the least bit sad for her, make her show more emotion than cold ruthlessness. 
Make her actually break her professional disposition and PLEAD with the slayer to stop his crusade. 
Make her weep when you defeat her and she realizes she's failed. 

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Well as I see it, there is no tragic villainy in Khan Makyr. 

She exploited argent energy to be able to escape transfiguration, at the expenses of other races (including betraying Argent D'nur), but this exploitation is not necessary for her race survival. They just do because they're afraid of transfiguration. Would sound like someone sacrificing millions for the sake of gaining immortality for his own profit. So in the end she got what she deserved and the slayer put a stop to a cycle of destruction. 

She is portrayed as he/she exactly is. A ruthless tyrant who exploit others for her own interest.

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This particular boss fight was an absolute circus. You’ve got to take out her shield multiple times leaving her open for a blood punch which you need to zip yourself up to her in order to do so. You’ve got all those drones everywhere zapping you constantly. You’ve got the battle zone being set on fire and shit raining down on you from the sky. You’ve got to juggle all of this at the same time. It’s probably easier on PC, but on PS4 it’s an absolute cardiac arrest lol.

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I would've liked to stab the chainsaw right to her face to finish the battle, but still a really good boss fight.

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Posted (edited)

i think they could have done it better, as stated by UserName, it was really difficult on Ps4. I literally spent like 20 minutes of the bossfight bunny hopping around waiting for the cache of ammo to respawn since i couldn't headshot any of the drones as they decided to either coat the area in damaging floors or shoot me to the point of not being able to take the shot

 

Overall though it was a pretty good bossfight regardless of the flaws, i still think that the IOS 2 boss was a very cool addition to the game.

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Posted (edited)

I don't think the KM was a very convincing character with authentic motivation. They could have done better on devoping her, her reasons, or the storyline (or go a different route). Given enough time, I could put my money where my mouth is and probably provide a more compelling alternative. 

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If you can't hit headshots on the drones in real time, Chrono-Strike exists.

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Posted (edited)

Spam lock on rockets on her, use the monkey bars to stay off the ground, and use chrono strike to headshot the drones if you’re not good enough to headshot in real time. Shouldn’t take longer than 5 minutes with that. Just a pushover boss.

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Too similar of an arc with Hayden in terms of villany. Exploiting a race so that hers can continue the consumption of Argent Energy. Other than that, pretty bland "I do it because I can" vibe whereas Hayden's motivations were much more grounded and relatable. Can the next villain please not be so focused on the consumption of Argent Energy for their race? Feels stale now after 2 games

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It was an ok plot point, I was more enthralled with the slayers origins story to be honest.

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In terms of story and lore, she's alright. It's funny when you finally kill her the Doom Slayer basically pisses off god 😂

 

In terms of the boss fight? A fucking chore in my opinion. They had to cram her fight in right before the IOS, and honestly when I was fighting her I just wanted to get to the IOS at that point, and her floor damage is so fucking cheap and the maykr drones are such a pain to headshot consistently on console while trying to dodge all her air attacks and floor damage and uuuggghhh it's a clusterfuck.

 

Like the Gladiator was a chore too, but you weren't at a disadvantage with the environment. Very sloppy. 

 

Maykr was the only boss fight I used the sentinel armor on because I just wanted it to be over lol, I was sick of dying 20 times to a dumb boss fight late game and I just wanted to fight the IOS. 

 

And the IOS was the best boss fight in the whole game imo. Marauder was 2nd best.

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Apparently every doom game need a sucky boss fight. In classic doom it's the spider mastermind (with bfg is quite trivial), in doom 2 is icon of sin, in doom eternal is khan makyr. In doom 2016... I actually liked all the boss fights.

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In terms of headshotting her drones on console, I found raw Ballista shots were easier to aim myself. Those drones bastards always seemed to dodge when I had the scope on them.

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The boss fight sucked, it was ridiculous. The design of the character is ok, i liked that there was a monster underneath the angelic look but the design of that monster was not creative enough. The character itself is whatever, it was just there. I dont see why they put her as an angel, what was the point of that. I was expecting Doomguy to give her the killing blow too, that was dissapointing. Cutscenes were from meh to cringey.

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It felt off as a battle, since headshots hadn't really been important up until then and suddenly: Welcome to Urdak, hope you leveled up the sniper rifle in a Doom game! Made it feel a lot less organic than pretty well every other battle.

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Posted (edited)

Yeah I didn't get the whole floor is lava shit. Think that civvie on YouTube said the same thing. Didn't feel very compelling. Also the last 3-4 levels felt really short. Like the development was crammed. Maybe it was because I was completely buffed out with all the weapons and runes and suit upgrades (but I still felt the difficulty drop off significantly) around the last 3 levels --much more than doom 2016. I've gone back and replayed some of the levels and something the about the campaign didn't seem to give it good replay able value.

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You can HS the drones easily with the SSG and Chrono Strike mod. Every time you engage the grappling hook, time slows so by the time you hit the drone you have aimed at its head. Instant piñata 

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my question is, how powerful is she?  Does she have any feats that make her a notable threat?  with the icon of sin, the codex states that he's basically a multiversal threat, but nothing is stated about the Khan maykr besides her being treated like a deity.  it seems she has some pretty powerful projectile attacks that could probably destroy a city, but that's really all it seems she's got going for her.

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Gameplay: Wasn't most of her "floor fire/lava" caused by the laser beam or was she capable of doing that without it? Looking back, she wasn't that bad in terms of gameplay design but i find it odd her wings weren't really animated.

I remember seeing someone say that the IOS should've been the one with the use of meat hook and the Kahn Maykr with the armor destruction aspect.

I don't totally agree but i do wish the IOS was climbable and could even have the hook used on him.

 

Design: I like how she represents an angelic/Heaven equivalent of the SMM. At the same time, Urdak is a unique take on Heaven but not what i can see as a perfect Heaven for Doom

It builds up great concepts with the Maykr tech and robot/brain angel stuff but i feel like some ancient temples with rainbows, feather angels, burning rings with eyes and little bit of Jesus along with that stuff could parallel how Hell has the Satanism and pentagrams but also some fantasy and sci-fi elements.

I know i repeat myself a lot.

Nekravol had that Urdak bit that looked ancient and not metallic, so i thought that and some parts of Empyrian could have coexisted with the rest of Urdak's theme.

Also, with the concept art, i hope there's more angelic characters and beings.

 

Story: She had a motive about saving her race and she was kind of similar to Hayden, but it's easier to see the case with Hayden and UAC. Makes me wonder how restoring The Father will change things.

Urdak feels like Heaven both exists and doesn't exist at the same time, because there is some surreal stuff about it but they also inspired most religions on Earth and other places, while also being a dying species.

It can be weird considering how Hell usually is in most games and stuff like the Spear of Destiny, Quake's portraits of Jesus, Holy Water Pistol.

Maybe we're just used to Eviternity, but i feel like an Heaven by original id would've been different, even without some good ideas from Urdak.

I might me misremembering the story, though.

 

Looking at Olivia, she was manipulated by Hell and there was a part where a voice says she has failed and before she becomes the SMM, she looks so sad like she was betrayed.

I thought that could have applied to a Heaven in Doom, where they'd have their own problems with demons (like Doom 3 Martians) and there was this evil Angel betraying and using Heaven for their goals, because of Hell, only for Hell to betray said Angel, like it was disposable.

 

Overall, I hope this isn't the only version of Heaven in the Doom series and i wonder if she'd ever make another appearence again.

 

On 4/11/2020 at 6:53 PM, Tony_Danza_the_boss said:

Can the next villain please not be so focused on the consumption of Argent Energy for their race? Feels stale now after 2 games

I feel like there should be a bigger focus on Hell as the antagonistic faction.

Like the demon lords as the characters that would taunt and talk trash to the player while their motives were just "we're a representation of evil" which would technically fit.

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Totally agree with the OP, SovereignX9, and deepthaw (and others).  I feel that the KM boss overly emphases headshot accuracy after basically not making that a priority for the first 12 hours of the game and despite the extreme difficulty in consistently converting headshots on a console controller (at least in my opinion).  Her setting the entire floor on fire is just annoying and again seems like something that likely is much easier to notice and adjust to on a mouse+keyboard than on a console controller.  I would be interested to know if any novice testers were given the opportunity to test-play this boss on a console; it just feels like a boss from a game from the 90s that is exceedingly difficult for reasons beyond your control.     

 

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Didn't find the fight itself too hard. The slow-mo rune kind of helps mitigate the head shot issue, and staying off the hazard ground was easy enough.

 

As far as story goes; IMO, the whole "similarities to Earth religions" is a coincidence. Here's the thing; it's made clear that neither Khan Mayker, nor anyone in Urdak or even Argent D'Nur, knew Earth or the human race even existed at all until Doomguy showed up. Which is to say; calling Urdak Heaven might be a stretch. At best, the Maykers are sufficiently advanced aliens who only barely understand Hell (which they also only became aware of post-Doomguy meeting). At worst; they are pretenders who started with decent enough intentions, and then got corrupted after drinking in Hell's power. I think it says something that Khan Mayker's face looks so hideous without her mask; she is no goddess, and she is no angel. Just another being deceived by the demons. 

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39 minutes ago, Taurus Daggerknight said:

As far as story goes; IMO, the whole "similarities to Earth religions" is a coincidence. Here's the thing; it's made clear that neither Khan Mayker, nor anyone in Urdak or even Argent D'Nur, knew Earth or the human race even existed at all until Doomguy showed up.

 

That's an interesting point that could be true.

 

Here are some texts of interest I was able to find. I bold the interesting bits:

 

"This is Urdak, the home world of the Maykrs. A brief age analysis of the structures and architecture here indicates that this world is older than any other in our database. Similarities can also be drawn to multiple pan-galactic religions, indicating that the Maykr's influence was not limited to Argent D'Nur, and that over eons their influence has spread across the galaxy, and potentially the universe. Some imagery is akin to religious icons in the Orion-Cygnus arm of the Milky Way, an area which includes Earth. The name Urdak is common tongue in the Maykr language, but can be approximately translated to the word for Paradise or Heaven in hundreds of different languages, further cementing the theory that the Maykrs have had a religious impact on mortal beings for millions of years."

 

"A symbiotic relationship had formed and darkness now had been balanced by a light, for where there was Heaven, so there would be Hell. The followers would be granted passage to Urdak, and the sinners would fall into the fiery pits of the Dark Realm. This word would be spread from all cultures in all worlds and in all places."

 

I couldn't find anything that'd suggest the Khan Maykr was unaware of Earth, she seemed only unaware of Hell. The closest would be the Lost City of Hebeth, constructed by the Sentinels on a "once hospitable Mars", which according to the internet, could've been somewhere between 3-4 billion years ago. I'm not sure if Hebeth has any Maykr imagery or not, it might've been built and lost before the Sentinels discovered the Maykrs. That being said, Hebeth might indicate the Maykrs were aware of the Earth and its nearby planets.

 

The above quoted Sentinel lore suggest the word of a symbiotic Heaven and a Hell "would be spread across all cultures in all worlds and in all places" where the followers "would be granted passage to Urdak" while the sinners "would fall into the fiery pits of the Dark Realm". The surety of the statement seems to give evidence that the Maykrs were aware of the humans on Earth, or else how would a similar light-dark dichotomy arise in Earth's beliefs. The Urdak entry is more suggestive with language like "similarities can also be drawn...", "some imagery is akin to...", and "further cementing the theory...". I think the difference is because the Urdak entry, along with most other Codex entries, were written by VEGA while the Sentinel entries were translated from their Book of Kings.

 

---

 

Here is an entry on the DOOM Hunter Base:

 

"The UAC's polar cultist facility is built around the ruins of an ancient Argenta settlement constructed over 60 million years ago, during Argent D'Nur's extraterrestrial expansion. Frozen carcasses of the Agaddon Hunters have been located in the glacial wastes surrounding the complex, and though their DNA structure reveals them to be indigenous to Earth there is no fossilized record of these creatures beyond the frozen territories of the Argenta settlement. Carbon dating of the remarkably well-preserved beasts suggests they are nearly 80 million years old, pre-dating all other known forms of complex Earth-based life."

 

This would suggest that Earth was known to the Argenta at least. As the word of Heaven and Hell's dichotomy exists in Earth's religions, the similar religious iconography between Heaven/Urdak and Angels/Maykrs, and the proximity of Argenta civilization in the past, I think all these suggest the Maykrs did have an influence on the humans of Earth since the early days. It would be a bit odd that the Maykrs have had a "religious impact on mortal beings for millions of years" across "all cultures in all worlds in all places", including the "Orion-Cygnus arm of the Milky Way" but somehow excludes Earth.

 

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I just had a realization that Doomguy's Classic Earth from which he came from did include the dark-light dichotomy, and this would be before his encounter with the Argenta/Maykrs. Here is the ending text of Doom II:

 

"YOU'VE DONE IT. THE INVASION IS OVER. EARTH IS SAVED. HELL IS A WRECK. YOU WONDER WHERE BAD FOLKS WILL GO WHEN THEY DIE, NOW. WIPING THE SWEAT FROM YOUR FOREHEAD YOU BEGIN THE LONG TREK BACK HOME. REBUILDING EARTH OUGHT TO BE A LOT MORE FUN THAN RUINING IT WAS."

 

So while Heaven isn't explicitly mentioned, the idea that "bad folks" go to Hell when they die did exist on Classic Doom Earth. If Urdak "created" the dark-light dichotomy where the good go to Urdak/Heaven and the bad go to Hell, it would be contradictory to what Doomguy notes at the end of Doom II, set an unknown number of years before his meeting with the Argenta/Maykrs.

 

---

 

This strengthens the multiverse theory. A "real Heaven" existed indirectly in the Classic Doom universe, whereas a "false Heaven" exists in the 2016 Doom universe. Alternatively, the Classic Doom universe had their own versions of the Maykrs who created the dichotomy with Hell successfully ages before the first game took place. I suppose it depends on how "similar" the universes are meant to be to each other. It's vague enough that they could go with either direction. The lack of a Khan Maykr coming down to stop Doomguy undoing Hell on Earth leads me to think it's likely a "real Heaven" in the Classic Doom lore (also Maykrs didn't exist in 1994 either).

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seeing a lot of parallels being drawn between the Khan Maykr and Mr. Sammy Hayden and damn, I didn't even think of that correlation. 
However in that light, I have to ask: Doom eternal builds the maykrs as extremely intelligent beings. I mean, we see the impressive technology they've developed. Hell, they made the Unmaker. (yes I know it's spelled the Unmaykr but I refuse to call it that, that name docks it 5 badass points imo). So my question is, did they really have to rely on argent energy? I mean SURELY they could've found a less...morally skewed way to power their civilization and to stave off the transfiguration right?

And in regards to the Khan Maykr's darker appearance, I had a thought: Could it be possible that the Maykrs were some kind of ascended demon species? 
throughout the recent games it's implied that all demons, no matter how bloodthirsty, have -some- innate intelligence. Some are brighter than others, but I think that even the lowly imps could figure out 2+2. Maybe the Maykrs were demons who left to build their own realm to abandon the endless bloodshed, and Transfiguration was the cost of that reformation? 
Or am I just overthinking it?
Last thing: we never get a clear picture of what the transfiguration is to the Maykrs. At least, not to my knowledge. from what I've gleaned it's almost like a clean slate? 
I'm lost on that, feel free to enlighten me

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I reckon transfiguration is something like reincarnation.

 

It was described like a way to end the life of the previous Khan and generate another one without losing all the knowledge acquired in the past life experience.

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On 4/15/2020 at 4:39 AM, Mr. Impso said:

seeing a lot of parallels being drawn between the Khan Maykr and Mr. Sammy Hayden and damn, I didn't even think of that correlation. 
However in that light, I have to ask: Doom eternal builds the maykrs as extremely intelligent beings. I mean, we see the impressive technology they've developed. Hell, they made the Unmaker. (yes I know it's spelled the Unmaykr but I refuse to call it that, that name docks it 5 badass points imo). So my question is, did they really have to rely on argent energy? I mean SURELY they could've found a less...morally skewed way to power their civilization and to stave off the transfiguration right?


Having intelligence doesn't necessarily mean you have a good sense of ethics or an unbroken moral perspective. Some very clever people have done some very evil things.

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, NoXion said:


Having intelligence doesn't necessarily mean you have a good sense of ethics or an unbroken moral perspective. Some very clever people have done some very evil things.

Even having a more advanced civilization doesn't make one more morally developed.

We can't help ourselves but exploit remote and simpler cultures for example. That's why if aliens ever enter in "contact " with us i'd be a bit worried...

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