Doom Builder 64, and how to start at all

[SolidKeeper]

Did you had that idea, that itch to do - or at least try to - something that was stuck in your brain for a while? I will try to explain it properly, so bear with me for a little.

 

I played Brutal Doom 64, and it was a blast - the atmosphere, the feeling, the style, everything hit the right spots for me. I replayed BD64 with the latest update, and boy oh boy...Several years passed, Bethesda releases Doom Eternal with their own Doom 64 port, which IMO was subpar to EX and especially to BD64, and along with their own port they released several new maps to "tie in" with Doom Eternal.

 

I don't think they succeeded. I thought it was too short, not much inspired and was kinda a letdown. So, after some time, an idea began to grow in my mind - what if there was a better tie-in from 64 to Eternal? It came all the way to creating a concept for some of the maps, overall direction and progression, and after a while I was like - "Why the hell not to try it?"

 

The issues raised when I was even trying to approach the subject. I don't know where to start beside DoomBuilder 64, for which I need Doom 64 EX, while BD64 needs only Doom 2 WAD for some reason. It get's more confusing with trying to find proper tutorials without understanding how to even set up. The WAD I want to create should be playable on BD64 with all the features it has to offer, but as far as I understand, BD64 is a kind of add-on, so even if I create WAD that would be playable on default Doom 64, it would be playable on BD64...right? Sgt. Mark changed the arena on "The Absolution" completely, removing those spawner-boxes, changing the spawning of demons and changing the mechanics of the Mother Demon, so...I am not so sure about it.

 

With quarantine, I have plenty of time to take it slow and see if I am up to the task, but I don't have even slightest idea how to start properly, what to read, etc. Here's where you come in with the expertise and experience I am lacking. I need strict summarized step-by-step "How to make WADs for idiots" sort of thing. There's not much info on doing maps for 64, and don't get me started on addons for DoomBuilder, on various sourceports and stuff like that. There is a lot of information...maybe too much.

 

I am going to thank you in advance. My request for help is not urgent, I can wait as long as needed.

[Redneckerz]

46 minutes ago, SolidKeeper said:

Several years passed, Bethesda releases Doom Eternal with their own Doom 64 port, which IMO was subpar to EX and especially to BD64, and along with their own port they released several new maps to "tie in" with Doom Eternal.

The Doom 64 2020 re-release is spearheaded by Kaiser, who did Doom 64 EX. What exactly was subpar to it? Because the DF piece shows that it improves on EX in very specific ways:

 

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The issues raised when I was even trying to approach the subject. I don't know where to start beside DoomBuilder 64, for which I need Doom 64 EX, while BD64 needs only Doom 2 WAD for some reason.

They are two seperate things:

• Doom 64 EX is a source port that sets out to recreate the N64 on PC, using its official ROM. A modified build of Doom Builder 1, Doom Builder 64, can be used to create maps for it.
• Brutal Doom 64 is a gore themed mod for GZDoom and Zandronum. It is thus not related to Doom 64 EX (Which seeks to recreate the N64 like for like). Being a GZDoom/Zandronum mod, it thus relies on Doom2. To edit BD64, you use Ultimate Doom Builder or Doom Builder X (And not DoomBuilder 64)

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It get's more confusing with trying to find proper tutorials without understanding how to even set up. The WAD I want to create should be playable on BD64 with all the features it has to offer, but as far as I understand, BD64 is a kind of add-on, so even if I create WAD that would be playable on default Doom 64, it would be playable on BD64...right? Sgt. Mark changed the arena on "The Absolution" completely, removing those spawner-boxes, changing the spawning of demons and changing the mechanics of the Mother Demon, so...I am not so sure about it.

So what you want is to modify Brutal Doom 64, since Brutal Doom 64 is a GZDoom/Zandronum mod. Two current options are available:

• Ultimate Doom Builder: It is derived from GZDoomBuilder-BugFix, but requires an OpenGL 3 GPU.
• Doom Builder X - It is derived from Doom Builder 2, significantly lighter on the resources, but is more conservative in nature.

See also the Wiki page for this.
 

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There is a lot of information...maybe too much.

 

I am going to thank you in advance. My request for help is not urgent, I can wait as long as needed.

That very much is true. Doom Builder takes time to get used to, a lot of time, really. First you have to decide for yourself if:

• You want to make levels for D64 EX or BD64
• Which level editor you want to use (And whether your hardware is capable enough to run UDB!)

:)

[SolidKeeper]

Ok, this gets much clearer.

 

So I need to modify the mod itself. Can this be done by just creating separate WAD/PK3 that could be loaded as Brutal Doom could be loaded with other WADs via GZDoom?

And what's the difference between those two builders?

[Redneckerz]

16 hours ago, SolidKeeper said:

Ok, this gets much clearer.

 

So I need to modify the mod itself. Can this be done by just creating separate WAD/PK3 that could be loaded as Brutal Doom could be loaded with other WADs via GZDoom?

That depends on what you want. I can't make it clear from your OP what you wish you to do.

 

• If it is creating a level set, then its simply a PWAD. If you wish to use the BD64 resources, you have to include them there.
• If its a mod to BD64, then use BD64 as a base (which i assume is a PK3).

 

Given that you yourself have stated to have no prior experience with level editing, i would heavily suggest forfeiting the above idea for the time being and start with the basics: Making a level for Doom/Doom 2. In doing so you will learn the basics of level/map design and also what makes a level stand out from one another.

 

Though the above is a quick summary, it has to be said that designing levels in the first place takes practice. See therefore the Editing Tutorials thread to get you going.

 

Additionally, look at this post by @Kappes Buur for more links.

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And what's the difference between those two builders?

This is answered by following the links provided, but i see the UDB link contains no explanation. Great. DBX has an explanation though:
 

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''Doom Builder X is a map editor forked from CodeImp's Doom Builder 2 by me (Anotak).
DBX is intended as a continuation of DB2, in design and spirit. Bugfixes, optimizations, and tweaks to keep DB2 up to date with new formats like EE-UDMF are the goal. I intend to preserve your workflow from DB2, and if anything I change interferes with that, please let me know. DBX can be installed side-by-side with DB2 and will keep track of its preferences separately (but will copy DB2 preferences it finds the first time it loads). DBX shares compatibility with plugins and configuration files from DB2.''

 

Here is the ZDoom Forums thread of UDB. Whereas DBX is more conservative and simply tries to update mapping format support current, UDB targets more elaborate model support and graphical features. A summary of its features:
 

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• ''All the features of the original GZDB!
• ZScript support
• Visual attenuated lights support
• Visual spotlights support
• Doom 64 sector lighting support
• UE1, OBJ model support
• Dynamic lights are 1:1 to GZDoom's appearance
• Various bugfixes (e.g. dynamic light intensive maps work better, less crashes)
• Various performance optimizations
• Faster and more reliable resource (re)loading
• Native 64-bit version implemented by StrikerMan780
• Better Linux compatibility implemented by dpJudas & Talon1024''

 

Kappes Buur provided a visual timeline:

[SolidKeeper]

Another great answer. Less dark spots now.

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That depends on what you want. I can't make it clear from your OP what you wish you to do.

If it is creating a level set, then its simply a PWAD. If you wish to use the BD64 resources, you have to include them there.

If its a mod to BD64, then use BD64 as a base (which i assume is a PK3).

 

I want to make a set of levels for BD64, at first. I have some further ideas that require more than creating levels, but I acknowledge my lack of experience and abilities, so I am focusing on just creating new levels. I hope I managed to explain my goal, if not, I can try to elaborate further.

 

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Given that you yourself have stated to have no prior experience with level editing, i would heavily suggest forfeiting the above idea for the time being and start with the basics: Making a level for Doom/Doom 2. In doing so you will learn the basics of level/map design and also what makes a level stand out from one another.

I was thinking about it actually a few day ago. I am not kinda forfeiting, more like postponing, but it's sound idea anyway. It was important to know where and how to start at all.

 

I think that, with all the information around the internet, with so many builders and stuff, that said information requires some streamlined categorizing. But maybe I am just blind. That could be major issue.

Anyway, I think that I got some good answers here and got better understanding of the situation. Kinda surprised with how fast I received the answers, and how explanatory they were, especially for a newcomer who may never post a single proper WAD. That's some wholesome community you got there.

[Redneckerz]

9 minutes ago, SolidKeeper said:

Another great answer. Less dark spots now.

I want to make a set of levels for BD64, at first. I have some further ideas that require more than creating levels, but I acknowledge my lack of experience and abilities, so I am focusing on just creating new levels. I hope I managed to explain my goal, if not, I can try to elaborate further.

 

I was thinking about it actually a few day ago. I am not kinda forfeiting, more like postponing, but it's sound idea anyway. It was important to know where and how to start at all.

You did explain your goal fully well. Lets start with the basics first. If the goal is to make a level set for BD64, but you don't know how level design works, then the first step is to learn how to design these :)

 

Some Doomers tend to write out their level on actual paper before designing it. Perhaps this might be useful for you aswell? A sketch of how you want your level to be. If you get that far, then translating that to an editor is the next goal to achieve :)

9 minutes ago, SolidKeeper said:

I think that, with all the information around the internet, with so many builders and stuff, that said information requires some streamlined categorizing. But maybe I am just blind. That could be major issue.

A lot of it is already contained on the Wiki and several stickied threads. Just look around. :) There is one great introduction thread by @Doomkid.

9 minutes ago, SolidKeeper said:

Anyway, I think that I got some good answers here and got better understanding of the situation. Kinda surprised with how fast I received the answers, and how explanatory they were, especially for a newcomer who may never post a single proper WAD. That's some wholesome community you got there.

I mean, you have a good idea and intentions, so it only feels natural to help you out :)

[Dimon12321]

Sorry for bumping the thread, but is there any way to see Doom 64 maps, enemy placements, secrets, linedef actions etc?

Doom Builder 64 utilizes Doom64.wad (created using Doom64EX tools) only as a resource pack for some reason. SLADE map editor reads it, but cannot show most of the linedef actions and secrets shown only through a linedef actions line which is easy to miss.

[Immorpher]

7 hours ago, Dimon12321 said:

Sorry for bumping the thread, but is there any way to see Doom 64 maps, enemy placements, secrets, linedef actions etc?

Doom Builder 64 utilizes Doom64.wad (created using Doom64EX tools) only as a resource pack for some reason. SLADE map editor reads it, but cannot show most of the linedef actions and secrets shown only through a linedef actions line which is easy to miss.

If you extract the individual map WADs out of the Doom64.wad you can open them in DB64. And DB64 also has a search mode if you need it.

This has some extra tips as well in using DB64: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1h7bbxzU1xEHg2gSbi_GDlV1VOqTQpzfecNon5Q_wv5w/

[Dexiaz]

BTW, maybe is there a chance to rebuild Doom Builder 64 based on later versions of GZDoom Builder or Doom Builder X?

[Dark Pulse]

3 hours ago, Dexiaz said:

BTW, maybe is there a chance to rebuild Doom Builder 64 based on later versions of GZDoom Builder or Doom Builder X?

The source code for it is out there, so it's entirely possible. Someone just needs to roll up their sleeves and do it.

[Immorpher]

I will need to learn how to compile modern software. As I think now that UDB has an interface for Doom 64 style lighting, you can add the Doom 64 format to its functionality. Can even fix bugs like how Doom Builder 64 doesn't display the original Doom 64 map switches properly. So ya it's a situation as @Dark Pulse said, someone getting to work and implementing it into a modern builder. And I think if its in UDB, it will get free quality of life updates as they continue to maintain UDB.

[sbw37]

2 hours ago, Dark Pulse said:

The source code for it is out there, so it's entirely possible. Someone just needs to roll up their sleeves and do it.

as a lament who knows nothing regarding programming, what would rebuilding the source code in the GZDoom or Doom Builder X engine do as far as more content? building new enemies, textures, mechanics, ease of use etc etc? im seriously considering attempting to learn some of this on my own to hopefully contribute to yalls projects. id love to see more content added like how team GEC, Immorpher, mollecio, Atomic Frog and others are doing. imo doing so would certainly give players like myself something new and exciting to enjoy. although what has been released has been quite an awesome experience for this great game 

 

[Dimon12321]

 

13 minutes ago, sbw37 said:

what would rebuilding the source code in the GZDoom or Doom Builder X engine do as far as more content?

What will you get from moving from an elder version to a newer version of a map editor (it concerns not Doom only, but any other game if we dig into it)? You'll get the latest interface, its hotkeys, information placement and various optimizations. 

[Dark Pulse]

6 hours ago, sbw37 said:

as a lament who knows nothing regarding programming, what would rebuilding the source code in the GZDoom or Doom Builder X engine do as far as more content? building new enemies, textures, mechanics, ease of use etc etc? im seriously considering attempting to learn some of this on my own to hopefully contribute to yalls projects. id love to see more content added like how team GEC, Immorpher, mollecio, Atomic Frog and others are doing. imo doing so would certainly give players like myself something new and exciting to enjoy. although what has been released has been quite an awesome experience for this great game 

 

Well, you will mostly get whatever enhancements and features got added to the editors in the interim, as well as some bug fixes. (Doom Builder 64's 3D view, for example, has an old timing bug it inherited that the longer your system uptime is, the more jerky its movement. This got fixed later on, but since it was forked before that fix, it still is affected by the bug.)