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Man of Doom

Mick Gordon unlikely to work on another Doom game after Eternal’s OST release

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2 minutes ago, Redneckerz said:

A shortened explanation would be better.


A summary of events is literally provided at the start of the document.

 

2 minutes ago, TakenStew22 said:

I never expected or wanted drama regarding Doom, but here we are.

I'm too lazy to read the whole thing, but if Mick was really fucked over regarding the OST then I truly feel sad for him. Just wish we'll somehow have a happy ending for this arc.

 


Unfortunately, it seems like things were profoundly fucked from Doom Eternal’s inception, so I’m beyond sad to report that this story probably doesn’t get a happy ending at all.

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1 minute ago, Man of Doom said:


A summary of events is literally provided at the start of the document.

That isn't what i mean. I mean a shortened explanation from both sides - The matter resolved in private, and thus a joint, concise statement to be produced.

 

What is in the open helps nobody and just serves to fuel opposing ends. In a world already met with divide, this is unnecessary.

 

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24 minutes ago, Redneckerz said:

That isn't what i mean. I mean a shortened explanation from both sides - The matter resolved in private, and thus a joint, concise statement to be produced.

 

Funnily enough, Marty and Mick had a Skype call after the OST release where Marty did offer to draft a joint statement regarding the situation. But Mick never got the draft. Instead, Marty decided to screw him over and write the Reddit post.

 

Ironic that Marty was claiming to Mick's unprofessional behavior when he himself pulled an absolute bullshit move like that.

 

After reading the statement in full, as much as I hate to say this, I'm starting to second-think purchasing any future id Software games.

Edited by MFG38 : Redundancy

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Quote

It was announced, with my name attached, and made available for pre-order before I was contracted to produce it.

 

Sounds like he could have had all the leverage that he needed prior to producing anything.

 

Quote

The game includes more than double the music I was contracted to produce. Rejects, mockups, demos, many of which were never meant for public release. I created this music as part of the development process and shared it with id Software in good faith. 

 

He shouldn't have produced anything outside of his contract, which is one of his own initial bullet points in this article. Is he complaining about not being paid for the "half of DOOM Eternal's music" that was outside of the contract scope? If so, I'm not sure what recourse he has.

 

 

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On 11/9/2022 at 10:45 AM, MFG38 said:

After reading the statement in full, as much as I hate to say this, I'm starting to second-think purchasing any future id Software games.


I’m completely with you on this one.

 

Unless Marty decides to step down or something like that, I’m seriously considering not purchasing any more future id titles considering everything.

 

Especially since most (if not all) of Mick’s grievances are with Marty, and he seems to hold no ill will towards the rest of id.


 

EDIT: Just to clarify, at the time I was more profoundly disillusioned with the state of id Software more than anything at the time.

 

That said, for a good while, I’ve been of the opinion that boycotts have an extremely slim chance of actually succeeding. No matter what intentions may be behind it.

 

As for whether I’m going to be purchasing future id titles whether or not Marty remains there, it’s since changed to “I’ll think about it” more because I’ve since had more immediate matters to attend to.

I mean, this was pretty much the exact same stance I took with Doom Eternal before it came out.

 

Maybe it’s just me running out of “it is what it is”, maybe it’s something else entirely.

That, and there was also the realization that Marty Stratton has been with id since Quake II (and pretty much for almost as long as id has been around). So… yeah, he’s been with id for almost as long as I’ve been alive.

 

Additionally, anyone using this entire development to soapbox about how they never liked “the direction the Doom franchise went in” needs to stop.

This is neither the time nor the place to do this, and again, my previous statement applies here too:

Quote

This mindset in question is such a grotesque practice, and makes it clear your intent is not to warn people about a potentially harmful person, but to simply assert over others that you are a morally good person, while at the same time, shaming those who did enjoy said person's works, as if enjoying something made by a shitty person automatically makes that person morally corrupt.

 

I personally find this mindset deeply repugnant, and it’s not the sick dunk one might think it is.

 

Additionally, it also forces the idea that people can't change and that you can somehow identify bad people in advance through their work.

It's both dangerous for people who did wrong and seek to become better, and people who are so convinced that the bad is someone else that they'll never self-reflect.


Not only that, you’re essentially using an incident involving real people just to air out grievances over how you didn’t like how a franchise developed over a period of time. Really?

 

 

 

In any case, opinions are mine and mine alone.

Edited by Man of Doom : Revisiting this post from a cooler head. I should’ve done this a long time ago.

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20 minutes ago, dasho said:

 

Sounds like he could have had all the leverage that he needed prior to producing anything.

 

 

He shouldn't have produced anything outside of his contract, which is one of his own initial bullet points in this article. Is he complaining about not being paid for the "half of DOOM Eternal's music" that was outside of the contract scope? If so, I'm not sure what recourse he has.

 

 

If you read the article, he explained clearly that they had the power to veto anything he submitted and not count it toward his allotted minutes (wtf kind of deal is that to begin with? holy shit that's bad; he still has to use all the time and effort to write that stuff whether or not they use it). According to him, they did this, repeatedly, but then used the content anyways. Which is fraudulent and violates the terms of the contract. I'm not sure why he didn't just take them to court when he has all of this evidence in perfect order. Guess he's afraid of further scaring off potential clients - "don't get that guy, he'll sue you - even when you totally deserve it."

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This is absolutely awful. This is an extraordinary, eye-opening view into the world of contractual work. Mick's work on both Doom and Wolfenstein (which seems like the other project that also had issues with the OST he mentioned in the statement) is incredibly iconic and legitimately changed the landscape not just for video game music, but an entire sub-genre of music. I can only hope that with this statement, his reputation amongst the online community recovers and his professional career thrives.

 

Sucks that as a fan, I assumed a studio head from id Software making a post on a social media platform was done in good faith (obviously the biggest misstep here). Seeing that close relationship with fans abused in such a way (regardless of whether or not Mick's statement is 100% the truth) really blows and I'm disappointed that I and so many others were suckered into siding with the studio on it.

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20 minutes ago, Quasar said:

I'm not sure why he didn't just take them to court when he has all of this evidence in perfect order. Guess he's afraid of further scaring off potential clients - "don't get that guy, he'll sue you - even when you totally deserve it."


From what I gather, going public with all of this is more to clear his name after id very much dragged his name through the mud.

 

And yeah, given the language of some of the document, it seems like Mick already had a lawyer comb through his statement before giving the ok to do so.

 

17 minutes ago, Cardboard Marty said:

Sucks that as a fan, I assumed a studio head from id Software making a post on a social media platform was done in good faith (obviously the biggest misstep here). Seeing that close relationship with fans abused in such a way (regardless of whether or not Mick's statement is 100% the truth) really blows and I'm disappointed that I and so many others were suckered into siding with the studio on it.

 

Without a doubt.

 

At best, they were attempting to save face by throwing Mick under the bus.

At worst, they might have outright weaponized fan reactions to the point where he was getting outright death threats.

 

Oh, and Marty’s open letter on r/Doom? It actually seems to have been at least flagged for misleading info if not taken down outright.

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1 hour ago, MFG38 said:

 

Funnily enough, Marty and Mick had a Skype call after the OST release where Marty did offer to draft a joint statement regarding the situation. But Mick never got the draft. Instead, Marty decided to screw him over and write the Reddit post.

That's the part what got me (I just finished reading Mick's rebuttal). Given it is an account that was inactive for 3 years, it seems very un-Marty to do just that. It makes little sense considering the history: Far as we can tell, all was well when Mick did the 2016 soundtrack. Marty was already at id at the time. So why would it be different now? Is it possible that someone other than Marty has something to gain from it?

 

It just seems strange that Marty Stratton, who (far as i can tell) was a respected person in the industry, went from that to just around the same as Randy Pitchford.

 

It seems ridiculous.

 

Just now, Man of Doom said:


From what I gather, going public with all of this is more to clear his name after id very much dragged his name through the mud.

 

And yeah, given the language of some of the document, it seems like Mick already had a lawyer comb through his statement before giving the ok to do so.

It is a fair message and it doesn't remove blame for the things Mick did wrong: He addresses that as well, and also provides various sources to prove the OST sounds like a mess. I don't see here someone trying to false flag things.

 

Which sucks because i also had the impression Marty Stratton wouldn't go that low. But i guess here we are.

Just now, Man of Doom said:

Oh, and Marty’s open letter on r/Doom? It actually seems to have been at least flagged for misleading info if not taken down outright.

The fact that such a private letter on a private matter was posted on Reddit, of all places suggests a whole lot of things.

 

Fixing the issue professionally isn't one of them.

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Glad we finally get Mick's perspective on the subject. It's a long read but definitely worth it. It's a really damning statement, especially with the proofs provided. The fact he wasn't paid for months (and even still for "rejected" work that was used anyways), had to crunch for days/weeks, had delayed / absent follow-ups for communications, and was manipulated along the way several times only to be blamed solely in the end anyways is really shitty and puts id Software in a bad light. Marty in particular comes off as an ass. The way they mistreated  and manipulated Mick so blatantly, as if they didn't want to work with him, comes off as bizarre.

 

The timing of Mick's statement is also notable, since id Software is expected to reveal their newest game within the next year or so. This will definitely cast a looming shadow over that project (especially since the soundtrack in the newer Doom games have been an oft-discussed highlight), and hopefully Mick's statement catches on long enough for there to be some sort of amicable resolution. The fact that Marty's out-of-the-blue Reddit post is one sticking point they refused to relent on is absurd. Regardless, I still doubt we'll see a resolution where Mick and id work out their differences to re-release the Eternal OST proper unfortunately. I also wonder how this will reflect on Hugo, since he did comment a few times in Marty's Reddit post to quote its contents.

 

Mick's statement also highlights another under-the-radar issue, specifically with id Software / Bethesda now in control of the r/Doom subreddit and Doom Discord. According to Mick, he reached out to an r/Doom moderator to take Marty's Reddit post down due to real-world harassment, which was obliged - but soon after re-instated, with the moderator blocking Mick. Marty's lawyers soon contacted Mick to tell him that taking down the post "greatly offended" Marty. With id Software / Bethesda in control of both typically fan-run message boards, they now have the ability to directly control what users can see posted about the companies on those boards. I don't see this changing anytime soon either but it is certainly concerning and something to keep in mind.

 

Finally, I hope Mick's statement catches on and he is able to recover his professional reputation and stave off at least some off the harassment. It sounds like an incredibly frustrating and shitty situation all-around. I don't understand why id Software mismanaged and mistreated Mick so poorly, it comes off so absurd and ridiculous. I do wonder if they'll release a counter-statement or if they'll just hope this all blows over by the time they promote their next game.

 

In any case, I wish Mick all the best. He deserves a lot better.

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Fair play to Mick for defending himself. As I said before when all this originally came to light it’s a shame that it has to be so public.

 

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Damn, I really hope this isn't true or maybe his claims are a bit blown out of proportion. I have no idea on Marty's personality, well I don't really know Mick's either.

 

Based on AtimZarr1's summary, I get a little inkling that Mick may have broken some sort of verbal agreement / understanding with id Software by interfering with Id's message board and demanding their staff (or volunteers) without their knowing, hence the disappointment.

 

Who knows, but often with these petty sounding scenarios both parties aren't saints.

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2 hours ago, Man of Doom said:

 Oh, and Marty’s open letter on r/Doom? It actually seems to have been at least flagged for misleading info if not taken down outright.

Speaking of which, this has been pinned in the comments of that post:

doomredditpinnedpost.PNG.2af2453fb0593d3bd225fcfcf0d7dd8c.PNG

It'll be interesting to see if anything comes out of this. Perhaps the moderator that originally took down and reinstated the post will comment on the situation.

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I'm going to try to avoid making some of the same mistakes I initially made when this all happened and refrain from emotional snap reactions. There's clearly some verifiable data Mick brings with his side of the story---off the top of my head, those being the screenshots of the metadata for the music tracks, which show their creation date being far earlier than what Marty alluded to in the Reddit post, and also the date on the email for the OST contract, which was 2 months later (if I remember correctly) than what Marty stated on Reddit. It would be helpful if Mick had posted other things, such as the settlement contract with the details he highlights near the end of the article. A lot of this, such as his recounting of Skype calls and meetings, is basically he-said-she-said. All in all, this is a lot to process, but it certainly paints a fuller picture. 

 

It'll be interesting to see where this goes from here and how id responds.

 

 

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7 minutes ago, chemo said:

It'll be interesting to see if anything comes out of this. Perhaps the moderator that originally took down and reinstated the post will comment on the situation.


The moderator who originally took down the open letter and then put it back up has since deleted their account entirely.

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6 minutes ago, Man of Doom said:


The moderator who originally took down the open letter and then put it back up has since deleted their account entirely.

I just checked and yeah that seems to be the case. One has to wonder then why R00t deleted his account in the first place, and if he can still be contacted through other channels.

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After the revival of this Drama Eternal (got it?) I only have one thing to say...

 

Spoiler

ROMERO, CARMACK, SAVE US!!!!!
1427596308_ohgodwhy.png.4d6aa180d2ba1573160308548aaa0b83.png

 

 

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Offering six figures to someone to shut them up speaks for itself. I totally get that he doesn't want a hate campaign and I'm not going to blame id Software as a whole but clearly there is severe fuckery afoot and Marty's holding the smoking gun.

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25 minutes ago, chemo said:

I just checked and yeah that seems to be the case. One has to wonder then why R00t deleted his account in the first place, and if he can still be contacted through other channels.

Most likely he got a contract from Stratton's lawyers to reinstate the Reddit post and he went dark as part of the dollar deal.

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I reckon that Mick's story is far closer to a norm than an exception in creative industries like game development.

 

Hopefully this prompts others in the industry who have received similar treatment to share their stories, and hopefully some cultural change occurs as a result.

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Just came to say... the change of opinion in Reddit after Mick's statement is priceless.

 

Spoiler

image.png.df7240ab3f268213ae7fa293d0c9100f.png


Remember when Mick said on his same post that his statment is not promoting a hate campaign, and actually that kind of actitude is self-defeating his purpose? Welp, Reddit doesn't seem to listen smh

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As a contractor myself, reading Gordon's story of just how awful the job was in general and how Stratton and management did everything they could to make it as stressful, miserable and ridiculous as possible for him really hurt to read. The sequence of events he laid out in the statement regarding the pre-order OST release alone is so mind-numbingly stupid and how they had the gall to put him in such a terrible position via contractual obligation; effectively making him a prisoner and forced to try and slap together a mixed soundtrack in just 4 weeks is maddening. Why the fuck did they not have any kind of planned strategy for the OST? Why the fuck did they already start accepting pre-orders without even telling the goddamn composer about the idea in the first place? And why in the BLEEDING-BLUE FUCK did they have Gordon stuck sitting around waiting for info on this new contract stipulation or any kind of response to his inquiries in general from them and burning precious time he could've spent working on the bloody thing for 7 MONTHS?! None of it makes a lick of sense.

 

Incidentally, the fact that not only did they never pay him for any of his rejected compositions, but then used them in advertising and other miscellaneous stuff is disrespectful and exploitative. Gordon, like any good freelancer, should always be compensated for their work and time even if some of-if not ALL-the work goes unused. It's how we make our bread and don't starve in the absence of a salary. You hire a freelancer for their time, so you better bloody well pay for it!

 

Combine all that with Stratton trying to bribe Gordon with hush money after he dared challenge Stratton's smear attempt made against him on a public post over on r/Doom, it's no fucking wonder Gordon responded with a firm, "No" when a fan asked him if he'd ever work with id Software again. They treated him like dog shit and I have nothing but respect for him finally breaking his silence on the matter after clearly doing absolutely everything he could to resolve this nonsense in a professional manner. Given the circumstances those bastards put him through, it's an astonishing achievement that Gordon managed to provide the iconic soundtrack for both nuDoom titles we know and love at all. I absolutely commend him for his effort, sacrifice and undeniable talent.

Edited by Biodegradable

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16 hours ago, Biodegradable said:

None of it makes a lick of sense

Never assume malice if stupidity will suffice. However in this case it may not suffice. I think there may have been actual malice, that is to say, he was being setup for failure from the beginning because some people felt he had taken too much credit, had gotten too much fame or recognition, believed that his artistic process was facetious or to use a word I heard directly, "pretentious" and not a necessity that led to the success of the 2016 OST, or that he was becoming dangerous to the franchise in that it might become impossible to continue it without him, and that's a liability that AAA modern publishers don't tolerate (this is why you're not allowed to learn much about most individual developers - they want the focus on the brand, at the studio level, not on people, who are meant to stay disposable). It's about the only thing that fully explains all the behaviors observed.

 

EDIT: Disclaimer - Anything above is my opinion alone and has nothing to do with my employer. None of it is derived from information I may have obtained through my employment, and is especially not anything that was designated as protected by any NDAs at the time I may have heard/learned it.

Edited by Quasar : Disclaimer

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1 hour ago, Quasar said:

Never assume malice if stupidity will suffice. However in this case it may not suffice. I think there may have been actual malice, that is to say, he was being setup for failure from the beginning because some people felt he had taken too much credit, gotten too much fame or recognition, or was becoming dangerous to the franchise in that it might not become possible to continue without him, and that's a liability that AAA modern publishers don't tolerate

 

That's a pretty disheartening thought right there, Q, but knowing how ugly and petty big industries can be, I suppose one can't completely scoff at the idea. After all, Bungie did a lot of similar shit to Marty O'Donnell and Michael Salvatori regarding their work for Halo and Destiny.

Edited by Biodegradable

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1 hour ago, Quasar said:

Never assume malice if stupidity will suffice. However in this case it may not suffice. I think there may have been actual malice, that is to say, he was being setup for failure from the beginning because some people felt he had taken too much credit, had gotten too much fame or recognition, believed that his artistic process was facetious or to use a word I heard directly, "pretentious" and not a necessity that led to the success of the 2016 OST, or that he was becoming dangerous to the franchise in that it might become impossible to continue it without him, and that's a liability that AAA modern publishers don't tolerate (this is why you're not allowed to learn much about most individual developers - they want the focus on the brand, at the studio level, not on people, who are meant to stay disposable). It's about the only thing that fully explains all the behaviors observed.

 

Yeah, all this checks out. The system in action, folks.

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Doom Eternal is getting review-bombed on Steam(again.) Don't know if it's affected the rating yet, as far as I can tell it's maybe a couple dozen fresh reviews so far. As if that's going to accomplish anything.

 

I can understand people getting emotional about this (even though it really doesn't help to, especially before we've heard both sides) but stuff like this is just dumb.

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