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Matthias

Zdoom? Yes, but actually no (?)

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Hello,

 

Maybe a strange question, but we can say that all projects/megawads for Doom 2 are divided into two different groups. Classical style megawads (Alien Vendetta, Requiem, Whispers of Satan and so on) mostly "Doom in Doom Format" and Zdoom megawads (Realm667 projects for example), which are full of modern effects (polyobjects, 3D floors, diving into the water, scripts and many more).

 

Now... imagine a megawad that looks like Classical Doom 2 megawad with classical 32 maps, but it would be in Zdoom format. But all the Zdoom thingies would be used rarely, mostly just to beat some limits of original Doom 2. For example for a door that opens when monter is killed and maybe some 3D floors for a simple catwalk. or maybe some polyobjects for slide doors.

 

I plan to do something like that. My question is - isn't that weird? Maybe I shouldn't even bother and better use maps in classical Doom format. Isn't expected from someone who uses Zdoom to have all the modern zdoom effects? And the architecture and complexity like Knee-Deep in ZDoom? With all thse scripts? Would you play such a megawad that is classical, but contain a zdoom thing here and there? Also doesn't feel it amateurish to use Zdoom but only for couple of things? Does such a megawad actally exist and is good and taken seriously in the same time?

 

thanks for all points of view :)

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If that’s what you want to make, you should go for it. The most important aspect, especially if you’re just getting started, is to do something you’ll enjoy. I make a lot of maps that way because I enjoy classic style and gameplay combined with the freedom ZDoom format gives me to do subtle things that wouldn’t be possible in vanilla or Boom format.

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Not weird at all, imho. I was thinking recently that even if I would do a "oldschool" (aka Vanilla) style megawad one day, I would still do it in UDMF, even though I would barely use any features of it. Why? Because it's way more convenient for me. There are certain things that I absolutely LOVE about UDMF and would have a hard time giving up by mapping in vanilla or boom even.

 

- Rotate flats

- Easier texture alignment

- The occasional script to do two things at once

 

And maybe two or three more.

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Just now, elend said:

Not weird at all, imho. I was thinking recently that even if I would do a "oldschool" (aka Vanilla) style megawad one day, I would still do it in UDMF, even though I would barely use any features of it.

This. Just because you use UDMF format doesn't mean you need to go all out. The idea that you are "only a couple features away from x format for a port I want to play on" is creativity stifling. Do whatever you want to make your vision happen. You're mapping for yourself, not for others.

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That's not weird. My approach is to have the largest compatibility as possible. So if I was working on a project and and the only features I needed were sliding doors and limit removal I would go for Doom format and scrap the sliding doors. That's just me personally though (and I much prefer Doom/Boom to UDMF). Like @Decay said it's personal preference and you don't need to use every feature. Make what you wanna make and have fun.

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I actually like any "classical-looking" megawads or projects that go beyond the vanilla Doom limitation. I personally use GZDoom for all the time, so for me the format really does not matter, I can play anything.

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That's actually a niche that's far too rarely served. I really like mods like Dark 7 and its mission pack which go lightly on advanced features and still provide mainly a classic Doom experience with some added spice like slopes or mission objectives.

 

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I'll chime in and say I also appreciate a map that uses GZDoom features to stretch, enhance and augment classic game play, rather than completely change how it works and would love to see more of them.

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    That sounds like a good idea, it could be especially useful as a 'learning tool' for someone (learning as they map).

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My latest map targets ZDoom only for the sole reason that in that source port, barrels explode when crushed rather than gib

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9 hours ago, SulfurOccult said:

Not weird, go for it!

Word.

 

It's your project, do what you will.

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3 hours ago, Horus said:

My latest map targets ZDoom only for the sole reason that in that source port, barrels explode when crushed rather than gib

 

Okay, that's a little excessive. There's plenty of ways to explode a barrel with a crusher in vanilla. I think it's mostly just fast crushers that ruin the explosion, while slow crushers slow down enough to let the barrel explode and floor crushers stop completely until the barrel dies, so they're both viable.

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Posted (edited)

Boom format or doom in doom format isn't too difficult to map in, but they are sometimes a pain in the ass because of the limited amount of stuff your able to do, Not only that but it also has a learning curve to it. Zdoom is what i bet alot of new mappers and old started out with and continue to use to this day, i think it would be neat to do a "Vanilla style" for the zdoom format as the long running race for it as of late was "What's the most technologically impressive stuff i can do with a map".

 

And who knows? it might be great and start a new trend for the future maps

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5 minutes ago, Scypek2 said:

 

Okay, that's a little excessive. There's plenty of ways to explode a barrel with a crusher in vanilla. I think it's mostly just fast crushers that ruin the explosion, while slow crushers slow down enough to let the barrel explode and floor crushers stop completely until the barrel dies, so they're both viable.

 

My map mechanic relies on fast crushers, slow crushers would totally ruin the gameplay

 

See first 10 seconds of this video for an example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9qJbs1yHxQ

 

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Posted (edited)

I think what you outlined used to be the case, but it's becoming slightly more blurred in the last couple of years. Historically there was a definite line between people who were targeting more traditional ports, and people wanting to push the boundaries of what source ports are capable of.

 

But the likes of GZDoom are so capable these days that pushing the boundaries isn't really in keeping with still making a Doom map. So you're starting to see mapsets being created that focus on specific features, not the kitchen-sink approach like KDiZD.

 

For example, Hurt by Elend and Verdant Citadel by Exl are notable recent releases that are mostly pretty vanilla, except using a handful of specific enhanced features to achieve the specific goals they wanted.

 

Even something like the Slaughter Spectrum by Bridgeburner and Refracted Reality by KillerKohai at al lean far more on pure level design to achieve their visual looks rather than enhanced features.

 

I strongly suspect we'll see more of these "classic-modern" mapsets in the coming years, where authors are focused on achieving a specific vision rather than utilizing specific features, and will use whatever source port they need to. 

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