The Staying Power of Classic Doom vs Modern Doom Titles

[Cruduxy Pegg]

We can find out in 30 years :)

[Jello]

13 hours ago, Doomkid said:

 

  Hide contents

..but, in an alternate universe where more devs/studios realize we can use this tech to create

interesting, new, bold takes on tired, old genres that have been done to death 999999x times before - the 2 new Dooms are "still good, but middle of the road".

I got so bored with 99.99% of the stuff coming out from 2006-2010 that my will to give a single damn about any (high budget) games was completely killed and hasn't been resurrected since. I've been excited for a total of 5 games in the last 15 years.

 

I'd love to see a creative renaissance among high-budget studios, particularly in the realm of FPS games. A willingness to try different and unique things and take the risk on bold ideas that may fail. Everything high-budget for the last 10-15 years just plays it so safe and so styrofoam and stale and just... Bleh. Yeah, they look OK I guess. Just give me a new property doing things I haven't seen a million times before already!!

Pretty much agree with you there. I can't even remember the last "AAA" game that I was excited about. Doom: Eternal is ok, Doom 2016 was ok, but I wasn't really excited about playing them. The only games I'm really excited about right now are Serious Sam: Planet Badass, and Postal 4. Before that it was Dusk, Amid Evil, and Iron Maiden. I guess I haven't really been excited for a AAA game since GTA 5, and I didn't really like it much.

 

I would love to see a new "Eldritch" Quake game; I think quite a bit could be done with that setting. Even if it's not iD, maybe get some folks from Rogue back to work on it, working with Machinegames. I think there's quite a bit of potential there. The monsters are horrifying, add more; the scenery is both depressing and impressive, expand on that with modern graphics, add some gameplay elements like climbing and double jumping from the new Doom's, I think there's a great game there. Leave out all the additional shit from Eternal, like using various weapons to get ammo, armor, and health. They need to learn how to do actual item placement again. Leave out the annoying storyline stuff from TNO and TNC. Just focus on gameplay, make it a budget shooter and price it at $30 or $40, there's money to be made there, and I think it could be pretty damn good.

Edited May 4, 2020 by Jello

[dr_st]

@ketmar

I'm not a graphics programmer, so I don't know the details. Are you talking about the APIs themselves or intermediate layers? Because many games that were programmed for Windows about 2 decades ago still run on modern versions, unchanged, and without requiring specialized component addons. Which tells me that those APIs are still supported. They also run without performance issues. I guess whatever inefficiencies exist in translating old APIs to modern GPUs are compensated by the higher computing power of the GPUs?

[Boaby Kenobi]

I think it's hard to continue making games in the Doom series as it's one of the most highly respected gaming series ever, so expectation for any new entry in the series is always going to be high. Doom 3 was criticised as people said things like how it just didn't feel like a Doom game and similar things were said about Doom from 2016.

Still haven't played Eternal yet and I doubt I will for a while but only because my PC wouldn't run it well.

 

I think Doom 2016 is good and for me it feels more like a Classic Doom experience compared to Doom 3. Eternal looks to be a continuation of that experience.

[seed]

5 hours ago, dr_st said:

I'm not a graphics programmer, so I don't know the details. Are you talking about the APIs themselves or intermediate layers? Because many games that were programmed for Windows about 2 decades ago still run on modern versions, unchanged, and without requiring specialized component addons. Which tells me that those APIs are still supported. They also run without performance issues. I guess whatever inefficiencies exist in translating old APIs to modern GPUs are compensated by the higher computing power of the GPUs?

 

This varies from game to game though, some games that were poorly programmed back then definitely no longer run out of the box nowadays due to all sorts of issues that surfaced once technology advanced. The original Painkiller/Black Edition and Max Payne come to mind, the first's audio goes bonkers when framerate goes above 60, and the latter doesn't even start anymore out of the box on newer Windows versions without some fan patches to move it to DX9, delay some audio stuff, or replace it altogether with Indirect Sound.

[dr_st]

Oh, there are certainly tons of such "badly programmed" games. The issues can be various. A whole class of problems had to do with obsolete installers which are no longer supported, even though the game would run fine otherwise. These are usually the easiest to handle - just repackage.

 

Then there are issues anywhere between "doesn't run at all" or has performance issues / minor glitches or runs well but does not support widescreen / higher resolutions. It is definitely on a game-by-game basis, as you said.

 

So far the experience shows that for any game that is even semi-popular, there is a large enough community to include a few hackers that will be dragging it through the times by unofficial patching. Often it is done without source code, but of course getting access to the source code can make things much easier to update (think Daikatana or RTCW). So maybe this path will not be as available in the future as it was until today, due to the concerns Graf had raised.

 

Then there are the API ports. Things like dgVoodoo2, which provide an interface between Glide and older DirectX APIs to newer DirectX APIs. Sort of like virtualization/emulation of specific APIs, rather than the whole system. These solutions are generic and enable a whole class of games to be supported without any changes to the game (though there may be limitations and game-specific glitches).

[magicsofa]

I haven't played Eternal yet... 2016 seemed pretty cool, but when I tried playing it, I started to lose interest fast. Locked in a boring, square arena with spawning demons. When I melee them, I am forced to watch a short but very stupid and clearly non-gameplay cutscene of doomguy ripping the demon apart. Also, they spew fucking health blobs. What?
 

On 5/3/2020 at 10:14 PM, Job said:

lost to memory as another "me too?" 

 

Lost to memory as another woman who was sexually assaulted? Yeah, perfect analogy

[holaareola]

2 hours ago, Boaby Kenobi said:

I think it's hard to continue making games in the Doom series as it's one of the most highly respected gaming series ever, so expectation for any new entry in the series is always going to be high. Doom 3 was criticised as people said things like how it just didn't feel like a Doom game and similar things were said about Doom from 2016.

Still haven't played Eternal yet and I doubt I will for a while but only because my PC wouldn't run it well.

 

I think Doom 2016 is good and for me it feels more like a Classic Doom experience compared to Doom 3. Eternal looks to be a continuation of that experience.

You might be surprised. Eternal actually ran better than Doom 2016 for me, solid 60 at all times with the adaptive resolution feature on. Unless it's the RAM requirements that are keeping you out?

[seed]

15 minutes ago, dr_st said:

Oh, there are certainly tons of such "badly programmed" games. The issues can be various. A whole class of problems had to do with obsolete installers which are no longer supported, even though the game would run fine otherwise. These are usually the easiest to handle - just repackage.

 

Then there are issues anywhere between "doesn't run at all" or has performance issues / minor glitches or runs well but does not support widescreen / higher resolutions. It is definitely on a game-by-game basis, as you said.

 

So far the experience shows that for any game that is even semi-popular, there is a large enough community to include a few hackers that will be dragging it through the times by unofficial patching. Often it is done without source code, but of course getting access to the source code can make things much easier to update (think Daikatana or RTCW). So maybe this path will not be as available in the future as it was until today, due to the concerns Graf had raised.

 

Then there are the API ports. Things like dgVoodoo2, which provide an interface between Glide and older DirectX APIs to newer DirectX APIs. Sort of like virtualization/emulation of specific APIs, rather than the whole system. These solutions are generic and enable a whole class of games to be supported without any changes to the game (though there may be limitations and game-specific glitches).

 

Indeed :) .

 

The easiest to fix seem to be those that relied on crappy DRM that was since removed from newer OSes, the most infamous being, obviously SecuROM. They tend to just require a crack and maybe a widescreen fix to allow for higher resolutions (see ThirteenAG's). While others are less fortunate and require more elaborate patches, especially if they're that old and most components they relied are simply gone now, but as you said, games that were reasonably popular back in their heyday typically benefit from a community that is either large enough, or dedicated enough to fix them and get them up and running on modern system, maybe even enhance the experience quite a bit in the process.

[Job]

1 hour ago, magicsofa said:

Lost to memory as another woman who was sexually assaulted? Yeah, perfect analogy

Before the "#metoo" movement, that phrase meant something else. It hasn't necessarily been supplanted or removed from the lexicon in this context despite what you may believe. Nice try though. Please don't derail the discussion here. 

[Average]

One of the obvious benefits of OG Doom regarding its longevity is its simplicity.  The whole game is like a box of lego and is much more enticing to dig around in than most modern games - let alone Nu Doom that has no real way of modding anything.

 

One is open and inviting, the other closed and intimidating.  

 

In a lot of respects Minecraft has more in common with OG Doom than the newer Id titles.

[Gifty]

Oh hey it's the grumpy old man variety hour!

[dr_st]

8 hours ago, seed said:

The easiest to fix seem to be those that relied on crappy DRM that was since removed from newer OSes, the most infamous being, obviously SecuROM.

Oh no, the most infamous is of course StarForce. Next is SafeDisc which no longer works on Windows 10. SecuROM still works.

[seed]

6 minutes ago, dr_st said:

Oh no, the most infamous is of course StarForce. Next is SafeDisc which no longer works on Windows 10. SecuROM still works.

 

Oh yeah, SafeDisc, that's my favorite, the one that's been giving me pains in the past.

 

But no, to my knowledge SecuROM doesn't work anymore either, it was disabled on W10 along with SafeDisc, and then got removed completely, while on 7/8.1 an update eventually disabled them. StarForce is a new one though, never heard of it. Gonna take a look at what games relied on it.

[dr_st]

30 minutes ago, seed said:

But no, to my knowledge SecuROM doesn't work anymore either, it was disabled on W10 along with SafeDisc, and then got removed completely, while on 7/8.1 an update eventually disabled them.

No, that's inaccurate. Somehow when the removal of SafeDisc became known, people erroneously "bundled" SecuROM with it (perhaps the fact that the SafeDisc driver is called SECDRV.SYS, got people confused that it is actually the SecuROM driver). And it spread like a forest fire, so now you have hundreds of articles saying "SafeDisc and SecuROM have been removed from Windows 10", but really only SafeDisc has been removed (or more exactly blocked from loading by the OS core). I have some original CDs with SecuROM-protected games (GTA2, GTA:VC and GTA:SA) and they run.

 

The same patches that disable SafeDisc eventually got to Vista, 7 and 8/8.1, but there you have an option of not installing / uninstalling them. No such option in Windows 10, as far as I know.

 

The problem with StarForce is that the protection is embedded both in the driver and in the executable; older versions of the driver cannot be made to run on newer Windows, and games that were coded for an old driver cannot work with a new driver.

 

I've experienced all the various issues with those 3 protection schemes a while ago, while I was working on write-ups about certain PC game collections. That's where my knowledge comes from; personally I would always use a cracked executable anyways, but I did investigate all this crap for research purposes.

[seed]

29 minutes ago, dr_st said:

No, that's inaccurate. Somehow when the removal of SafeDisc became known, people erroneously "bundled" SecuROM with it (perhaps the fact that the SafeDisc driver is called SECDRV.SYS, got people confused that it is actually the SecuROM driver). And it spread like a forest fire, so now you have hundreds of articles saying "SafeDisc and SecuROM have been removed from Windows 10", but really only SafeDisc has been removed (or more exactly blocked from loading by the OS core). I have some original CDs with SecuROM-protected games (GTA2, GTA:VC and GTA:SA) and they run.

 

Oh damn, really? That explains some things I've seen then. Most articles do indeed point out that both got removed from the system and I haven't been able to find contradictory information on the topic, so I assumed both got nuked in absence of such information.

 

29 minutes ago, dr_st said:

The same patches that disable SafeDisc eventually got to Vista, 7 and 8/8.1, but there you have an option of not installing / uninstalling them. No such option in Windows 10, as far as I know.

 

You can uninstall, delay, and hide updates on 10, but no, not permanently block any and all updates, and they are all cumulative, so even if you install a more recent update, all changes from older updates will be applied. Funnily, they turned all updates for 7 and 8.1 into cumulative ones too a while ago, although you can just turn updates off there - needless to say that's a dumb thing to do "bEcAuSe uPdAtEs aRe BaD" but whatever.

 

29 minutes ago, dr_st said:

The problem with StarForce is that the protection is embedded both in the driver and in the executable; older versions of the driver cannot be made to run on newer Windows, and games that were coded for an old driver cannot work with a new driver.

 

So what would be a fix in this case? This sounds like someone would just need to hack the game's executable and remove the protection, but since this is supposed to be infamous, I guess it ain't as easy as it sounds.

 

29 minutes ago, dr_st said:

I've experienced all the various issues with those 3 protection schemes a while ago, while I was working on write-ups about certain PC game collections. That's where my knowledge comes from; personally I would always use a cracked executable anyways, but I did investigate all this crap for research purposes.

 

Same. It's kinda funny though, to crack your own games, but the irony is that some fan fixes and mods do NOT work on the original executables, mostly because they're designed for a specific kind of exe (like those Reloaded, Unleashed, or whatever thingies).

 

Also, these games required manually/physically inserting their CDs in the disk tray, so for the sake of convenience it's easier to just not do it. Besides, more and more PCs these days don't even come with disk trays anymore. I personally don't know anyone who doesn't have one, but I did notice more and more people on the web have such configurations.

[Chip]

DOOM good, DOOM bad.

[dr_st]

8 minutes ago, seed said:

You can uninstall, delay, and hide updates on 10, but no, not permanently block any and all updates, and they are all cumulative, so even if you install a more recent update, all changes from older updates will be applied.

On Win10 Pro you can permanently disable Auto-Update, and nothing will ever install without you consent, but if you do decide to run the updater manually, it will bring all updates since your last update, without giving you any choice, as you said. I think there are third party tools that allow you to hide specific updates, and I recently heard of a third party tool (Up10Control) which can achieve the effect of disabling Auto-update on Win10 home as well.

 

But it is not relevant to this case, because the blocking of SafeDisc in Win10 was there from the start. There is no update to remove.

 

8 minutes ago, seed said:

So what would be a fix in this case? This sounds like someone would just need to hack the game's executable and remove the protection, but since this is supposed to be infamous, I guess it ain't as easy as it sounds.

Well, what the StarForce corporation explains on their support site, is that the developer of the protected game should contact them (StarForce) to receive an updated version. Naturally, no one does that, because they would probably charge for it, and who care anyways. Every game that had at least 10 people who wanted to play it back in the day has been cracked and there are plenty of no-CD executables are floating around the web.

[seed]

6 minutes ago, dr_st said:

On Win10 Pro you can permanently disable Auto-Update, and nothing will ever install without you consent, but if you do decide to run the updater manually, it will bring all updates since your last update, without giving you any choice, as you said. I think there are third party tools that allow you to hide specific updates, and I recently heard of a third party tool (Up10Control) which can achieve the effect of disabling Auto-update on Win10 home as well.

 

But it is not relevant to this case, because the blocking of SafeDisc in Win10 was there from the start. There is no update to remove.

 

Pro does? News to me honestly, I could swear it only gives a few more options like extending the delays even further, but not disabling them altogether. Kinda doesn't make sense why even Peo users seem to complain about this. I knew this was an option only for Enterprise users.

 

Even Microsoft has tools to hide problematic updates too, so no need for third party software. I would personally never recommend using tools such as ShutUp10 to disable stuff you were never meant to - if an update breaks your OS because your choices suck and you fiddled with the wrong settings, you're on your own.

[dr_st]

15 minutes ago, seed said:

Pro does? News to me honestly, I could swear it only gives a few more options like extending the delays even further, but not disabling them altogether. Kinda doesn't make sense why even Peo users seem to complain about this. I knew this was an option only for Enterprise users.

I don't think you can do it through the UI. You need to set the NoAutoUpdate registry key manually.

https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/deployment/update/waas-wu-settings

 

17 minutes ago, seed said:

I would personally never recommend using tools such as ShutUp10 to disable stuff you were never meant to - if an update breaks your OS because your choices suck and you fiddled with the wrong settings, you're on your own.

I agree. The biggest problem with these tools is that they touch tons of different settings and you have no idea what depends on what. You may encounter a bizarre problem years later, having completely forgotten that you even tweaked something, and spend days figuring it out.

[ketmar]

16 hours ago, dr_st said:

I'm not a graphics programmer, so I don't know the details. Are you talking about the APIs themselves or intermediate layers? Because many games that were programmed for Windows about 2 decades ago still run on modern versions, unchanged, and without requiring specialized component addons.

both. and raw power has its limits. physical limits. like memory bandwidth. and of course, *some* games still run (and many more "native windows" games simply don't work). but gfx programming changed *completely* since 2k. actually, it changed several times. and some vendors weren't able to keep up even with contemporary APIs (hi, ATI/AMD!), and others implemented their own derivation of standards, so what work there doesn't work on another implementation (hi, nVidia!). or just plainly forgot some APIs required by the standard they're reporting as supported (hi, Intel!). of course, old things can be emulated, and emulation can be tweaked for various software automatically, but it doesn't come for free. somebody has to do that.

 

and, by the way, windows is not "simply works". just look at appcompat hacks -- it literally emulates specific environments for specific applications. that's not what i call "without requiring specialized component addons". the emulator is bundled with OS, and it is closed-source. so any reimplementation of OS API "by the specs" will miss it, and some software won't work right (or at all). and people will blame emulator, because "it works on the original system!" and it doesn't matter that original vendor cannot stick to its own specs, and never ever published its list of workarounds. but of course, OS vendors won't EOL their products, and will support old software forever, so there's nothing to worry about.

[magicsofa]

10 hours ago, Job said:

Before the "#metoo" movement, that phrase meant something else. It hasn't necessarily been supplanted or removed from the lexicon in this context despite what you may believe. Nice try though. Please don't derail the discussion here. 

Apologies, I forgot that we always use the original meaning of phrases when communicating. Anyway, the discussion has already derailed into one about graphics technology. Probably because multiple people have provided the obvious, and correct, answer to your original question: No. Even removed from OG Doom fame, recent Doom titles would not be the start of a legacy. They get a bit of name recognition, but the audience is full of people who are too young to have a deep connection to the legacy. Furthermore, the industry doesn't care about your dreamy legacy. Even if Eternal had been of lower quality, The Industry would have shoved it through the market anyway, and so they shall do with the next title.

Doom Eternal cowers in the shadows of Fortnite and Minecraft. The fact that you have been thinking deeply about this question shows that you think Eternal is even possible as a candidate for "legacy starter." Why? It has almost nothing special to offer... it's a fairly standard FPS in a saturated market. Sure, it's a little faster than Call of Duty. But to be honest, I'd rather play that. They started a (mini) legacy with their fucking zombie mini-game. Probably because it was fun as hell. You know what's also fun? Building stuff. And so, the same thing keeping our 25 year old relic alive, just happens to be offered by the most popular game today.

[SiMpLeToNiUm]

I might be reading this whole thing wrong, but I don’t like the spirit of this thread.

The most direct answer to the OP is that these games will never be to the 2000’s or the entire modern scene what og Doom was to the 90’s and beyond, they don’t try to be, and that’s fine.

 

We don’t get D16 or DE in an alternate timeline because we don’t have them the way they are without og Doom or the revolution that came after it. These are a product of a very specific progression of events and you can’t really separate them from that continuity.
 

As some have tried to say, you can dislike them for things like the lack of the essentially limitless modding support that the original offered (something entirely unrealistic to expect out of the advanced games of today for a ton of reasons), or you can even think that they’re soulless corporate darlings of a dry modern gaming scene that’s trying to take your money and ruin your fond memories, but you’d be both missing the point and trying to bum everyone out for no reason.
 

Not every game that uses your favorite franchise’s name has to totally change the face of what gaming is at that time, nor does it even have to rise particularly far above the tropes and expectations that exist then (something that D16 and DE already have done well enough anyway). We can take them on their merits and the spirit with which they were made. That spirit is undeniably Doom, and to try and twist and warp it into something it’s not is really unfaithful to the passion of more than 25 years that even allowed these games to come out in the first place. Stoke the flames and don’t try to smother them just because something can’t satisfy the insatiable nostalgia monster.

 

Also, what does “Me Too” have to do with Doom? Be lame somewhere else.

Edited May 6, 2020 by SiMpLeToNiUm : Looked up "me-too." Didn't know about that phrase, but unfortunately I only think about the movement when I hear that, so sorry about that

[ketmar]

the thing is, if they're making a game titled "Doom", we (at least me) expecting it to be at least as great as the original one, in every aspect. if they don't want to be compared with the originals, they should start a new franchise, without any connections to the old one. there is simply no way to both milk old classics, and to avoid being compared with it. it doesn't work that way.

[SiMpLeToNiUm]

You see I would agree with you, but not all sequels are created equal. There are games that are held far too highly in people's minds as the absolute peak of that series or that genre, or what have you. Of course a modern recreation isn't going to live up, but as I said, it doesn't have to. They are two very different games made at very different times and appealing to very different generations and demographics. Something can still be good and carry the torch of its predecessors without doing everything the way it was first done, doing it better, or creating the same impact that the best one did. That just isn't realistic.

Edited May 6, 2020 by SiMpLeToNiUm

[ketmar]

then they should simply not use old name for their new games. it is as simply as that: do not call your game "Doom". and if your game won't sell good if it is not named "Doom", then maybe your game just isn't that good in the first place?

 

but if your game is called "Doom" (and marketed as "reboot"), i will expect it to surpass its predecessors. see, D2016 is not even a "sequel", it is a "reboot". ok, i see, we have new tech today, so they may want to make a "reboot". now, make it at least as good as the old game. and if they can't... don't do a "reboot", create a new franchise.

[jazzmaster9]

1 hour ago, ketmar said:

the thing is, if they're making a game titled "Doom", we (at least me) expecting it to be at least as great as the original one, in every aspect.

What makes a game great is pretty subjective.

What ever they do with the new Doom games there will always be comparisons but at the same time, the new Doom games cant just stagnate in the design philosophies  90s. Changes need to be made to bring in a new generation of fans, where we like or Hate those changes well thats on Us and not on Id to decide.

9 minutes ago, ketmar said:

now, make it at least as good as the old game. and if they can't... don't do a "reboot", create a new franchise.

Who exactly gets to decide if a game is good enough to be called Doom though? Who is the soul authority in this.

Fans Don't know what they Like 90% of the time given how divided they are even with the classic Doom games.

 

UDoom vs. Plutonia vs. TNT vs Doom 3. etc...

 

if we use this Logic, I say TNT: Evilution isnt a Doom game because it isnt even as good as Doom 2

or Doom 3 isn't Doom because its not as good Horror wise as Doom 64.

Edited May 6, 2020 by jazzmaster9

[SiMpLeToNiUm]

Using this logic, id isn't allowed to keep that name cause they aren't the original "dream team" anymore.

[jazzmaster9]

2 minutes ago, SiMpLeToNiUm said:

Using this logic, id isn't allowed to keep that name cause they aren't the original "dream team" anymore.

Im claiming it right now Final Doom: TNT isnt as good as Doom 2 so why even call it "Doom"? just call it it's own thing Evilution and use different assets.

 

Spoiler

/s

[xvertigox]

2 hours ago, ketmar said:

the thing is, if they're making a game titled "Doom", we (at least me) expecting it to be at least as great as the original one, in every aspect. if they don't want to be compared with the originals, they should start a new franchise, without any connections to the old one. there is simply no way to both milk old classics, and to avoid being compared with it. it doesn't work that way.

 

If you expected Doom 2016 or Eternal to be as good or better than Ultimate Doom or Doom 2 then you need to manage your expectations better.

 

Milking the originals would be putting together some half-assed FPS and slapping 'Doom' in the title and that is obviously not what's happened with 2016 and Eternal.