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ReaperAA

Strife's gameplay balancing suggestions

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Hello fellow Doomers. Recently, I have been thinking about Strife's gameplay balance and TBH, there are a lot of things regarding the current weapon/monster balance of the game that I don't like. And I am sure that there are other folks who feel the same. I want to hear you opinions regarding the current weapon/monster balance and what should be changed so that the game would be less tedious and more engaging.

 

For example, some of the changes that I thought about are:

 

WEAPONS:

- Improve the rocket launcher to do more damage. I was thinking about each rocket doing about 50%-ish more damage but to somewhat balance it out, reduce the ammo availability by 25%.

- Remove the "shaking" camera when using flamethrower. Also increase the range of flame projectiles (by reducing gravity).

- Grenade launcher has the "arching" reduced and range increased (possibly by reducing gravity+increase projectile speed). This may make it a bit safer to use.

- Alter the Mauler's secondary mode (projectile mode) in some way to be more effective.

 

MONSTERS:

- Small "robot" enemies like drones, spiders and ceiling turrets take extra damage from Electric bolts.

- Templars (the guys which use Mauler weapon) get a slight delay before firing so that the player isn't suddenly caught offguard by its blast.

 

If anyone disagrees with any of the changes, then do tell me.

 

Also note that I may think of more changes down the line. Also I made this thread because I may be onto something ;)

Edited by ReaperAA

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So far, I only have one in mind; improve the stealth system with the mech enemies.

I might post other suggestions once I get another inspiration.

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Let me preface by saying that I love Strife on a conceptual, and artistic level, but I think the gameplay came out short. One thing that really rubbed me the wrong way when playing through strife were the beefy enemies, hitscanners being a particular sore spot. In this type of game at least, non-boss hitscanners should be glass cannons(eg. how doom does it) because their attacks are instantaneous and can be dished out quickly. But upon further analysis I think the problem goes deeper than that.

 

The Acolytes are the most common enemy in the game, their health values vary from 60 to 70(same health as the Imp and The Chaingunner respectively). Strife's damage randomization formula is [damage]*(1,4) as opposed to Doom's [damage]*(1,8) formula, which basically means that your weapons are half the strength of Doom's in a generalized, basic level. So yeah, those 60 and 70 health values from the Acolytes start to feel more like 120 and 140 when you're actually fighting them ingame. It's almost like what would happen if you game pinkies a 3-shot-burst hitscan attack.

 

The Reavers and Templars: The former has 150 health and fires a shotgun attack with 3 pellets, and the latter has 300 health fires 10 pellets. Again, comparing it to Doom, when taking the lower damage output into account those 300 health points from the Templar starts to feel like 600 health(the amount of health a mancubus has). Now consider this, for balancing purposes in Doom, the Sargent's shotgun only fires 3 pellets instead of the Player's 7. The templar fires 10 mauler pellets, which would make him the equivalent of a Mancubus with a triple shotgun, plus a pistol on the side firing simultaneously. Not to mention his relatively compact hitbox and average speed make him pure pain to face off against.

 

Of course, the lower damage randomization goes both ways, so enemies also do less damage. I hate that honestly. The battles already drag because everything is so beefy and because you're forced into constant cover because of the abundance of hitscans(feels like a cover shooter in the Doom engine at times). The lower damage randomization formula only makes this problem worse.

 

I don't get why they did that. Was it to artificially increase the length of the game? Likely, considering that the maps are smaller, and objective oriented. So if battles were shorter you'd probably be just blazing from one end of the map to the other. Or maybe it was an incentive to use stealth? I would be fine with that if the stealth system in Strife wasn't so bare bones and broken. Ultimately, aside from the frustrating experience the game gave me, I can't bring myself to dislike it, but I do think it was a bit too ambitious for a 90's Doom engine game.

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What @HorrorMovieGuy said made a lot of sense, and so for the fun of it I decided to test out what at least the early game felt like with a quick sehacked(dehacked but strife) patch that halved the health of the hitscanners and nothing else. The gameplay flowed a lot smoother in a way I hadn't noticed it was lacking? Even when it's just acolytes the game just feels faster when the electric bolts have a chance of one-shotting them.

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The one thing I hated was the robotic enemy respawning on Bloodbath. Respawning Inquisitors? Sounds good.... NOT

 

Also, the grenade launcher arc is ridiculous to the point of uselessness.

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2 hours ago, idbeholdME said:

Also, the grenade launcher arc is ridiculous to the point of uselessness.

 

The grenade launcher is the first thing I would like to fix in Strife. Not only does it have a ridiculus arc, but the grenades also don't detonate on impact with enemies. To add insult to injury, the explosion radius is too big that it is extremely dangerous to use in close range.

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On 5/11/2020 at 6:50 AM, ReaperAA said:

- Alter the Mauler's secondary mode (projectile mode) in some way to be more effective.

UH...

 

On 5/11/2020 at 10:47 AM, HorrorMovieGuy said:

The Acolytes are the most common enemy in the game, their health values vary from 60 to 70(same health as the Imp and The Chaingunner respectively). Strife's damage randomization formula is [damage]*(1,4) as opposed to Doom's [damage]*(1,8) formula, which basically means that your weapons are half the strength of Doom's in a generalized, basic level. So yeah, those 60 and 70 health values from the Acolytes start to feel more like 120 and 140 when you're actually fighting them ingame. It's almost like what would happen if you game pinkies a 3-shot-burst hitscan attack.

 

The Reavers and Templars: The former has 150 health and fires a shotgun attack with 3 pellets, and the latter has 300 health fires 10 pellets. Again, comparing it to Doom, when taking the lower damage output into account those 300 health points from the Templar starts to feel like 600 health(the amount of health a mancubus has). Now consider this, for balancing purposes in Doom, the Sargent's shotgun only fires 3 pellets instead of the Player's 7. The templar fires 10 mauler pellets, which would make him the equivalent of a Mancubus with a triple shotgun, plus a pistol on the side firing simultaneously. Not to mention his relatively compact hitbox and average speed make him pure pain to face off against.

The Acolytes get dropped quickly when you tap fire the 3 shot assault rifle. Even if you don't tap it, full auto still mows down acolytes and even more so when you have accuracy upgrades. The AssaultRifle is at least on par if not better than the Chaingun though I'd lean far better especially with accuracy upgrades (or even targeter).

 

Reavers and Templars aren't scary at all when you start smacking them with the Mauler, FlameThrower and MiniMissiles (with accuracy). Mauler is literally the SSG of the game and Mauler secondary fire takes up the mantle of a mini-BFG.

 

Although I do agree that Strife did drop the ball on the stealth system in general. In the latter half of the game, you don't really have many alternate paths to take to avoid fire fights.

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My main suggestion would be to make the weapons not suck ass to begin with. They're all wonky as hell. Apart from that, and the occasionally confusing map layouts, I don't have many complaints about the game.

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5 hours ago, Ru5tK1ng said:

 

To be honest, I feel that it is pretty much the only enemy where it is preferable to use mauler's secondary fire. In other case, you are better off using the primary fire (or the Sigil, since the secondary fire mauler also consumes health).

 

And even then, killing the Inquisitor is not without its risks.

 

5 hours ago, Impie said:

My main suggestion would be to make the weapons not suck ass to begin with. They're all wonky as hell. Apart from that, and the occasionally confusing map layouts, I don't have many complaints about the game.

 

I am trying my hands on modding Strife and I have already done some changes to the rocket launcher, grenade launcher and the flamethrower. I will provide a file (for feedback) with the changes when I feel that they are good enough.

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54 minutes ago, ReaperAA said:

 

To be honest, I feel that it is pretty much the only enemy where it is preferable to use mauler's secondary fire. In other case, you are better off using the primary fire (or the Sigil, since the secondary fire mauler also consumes health).

 

And even then, killing the Inquisitor is not without its risks.

That's alright the Inquisitor is about the top of the food chain, it should have some risks.

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I'm feeling alone in liking the grenade launcher as-is... It's a sort of tricky and risky weapon, but that's what I like about it! It's good for huge blasts of damage, but you gotta use it when you're at the right range from your target. That, or you gotta be in a situation where you can take advantage of bouncing the grenade off a wall.

...And if the grenades come close, run away!

If any changes to the grenade launcher's bouncing/arcing happens in that gameplay mod, then I want it optional!

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Well I have made a balance file that has changes to some of the weapons.

StrifeBalance.zip

 

This is a very very WIP file so expect some anomalies. Try out the weapons by using "Give all" console command and go crazy ;). And provide feedback.

 

The changes (inside the file) are:

Spoiler

- Fist/Dagger gets faster rate of fire when button is held.

- Minimissiles are faster and deal almost 50% more damage and also have a 15-20% more splash damage radius. This makes them kill (and sometimes even gib) acolytes in 1 hit. To compensate, the weapon has 25% less ammo capacity and gets 25% less ammo from pickups.

- Flamethrower no longer has the shaky effect and it has a longer range due to changes in arching behaviour.

- Grenade Launcher has received extensive changes. The arching behaviour has been changed to be somewhat like Quake (though still quite different). The grenades detonate on contact with an enemy (impact detonation). The grenades no longer explode on 2-bounces, rather they explode after a fixed period of time. The splash radius of Explosive grenades has been reduced by 25%. The explosion visuals have been improved by using translucency.

 

Currently working on:

- Experimenting with Acolytes (adjusting/reducing their hp).

- Thinking about a way to make Electric bows more useful (one method is to make it do more damage against stalkers, sentinels and ceiling turrets).

- Tinkering with the mauler.

- Tinkering with the rest of enemies.

 

1 hour ago, Alper002 said:

I'm feeling alone in liking the grenade launcher as-is... It's a sort of tricky and risky weapon, but that's what I like about it! It's good for huge blasts of damage, but you gotta use it when you're at the right range from your target. That, or you gotta be in a situation where you can take advantage of bouncing the grenade off a wall.

...And if the grenades come close, run away!

If any changes to the grenade launcher's bouncing/arcing happens in that gameplay mod, then I want it optional!

 

Me: *slightly sweating

Well I recommend to give it a try. You might like it. It still requires more skill than your average Joe's weapon.

Edited by ReaperAA

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42 minutes ago, ReaperAA said:

Well I recommend to give it a try. You might like it. It still requires more skill than your average Joe's weapon.

Yeah I dunno, the grenade launcher feels a bit too much like a rocket launcher without the danger of blowing yourself up in the face if you shoot a wall. Could do with less time before the grenades to explode perhaps?

 

Speaking of rocket launchers, the mini-missile launcher is really nice to use! I don't mind the changes there at all!

 

The flamethrower's no longer shaky, but I think it should have some horizontal inaccuracy to make it still behave mostly similarly. While I have my reasons for liking the shakiness from a details perspective, non-shaky flamethrower is good from the perspective of a player :P

 

Not too sure on the speedy dagger, even if it does speed up early game. It circumvents any sort of "fighting" you do with peasants if you go for daggering them, and it also makes the electric arrows pointless in early-game thanks to pain-state abuse. That might be a problem when the early-game is when the electric arrows are also anywhere near useful lol. Another thing is that the punchdagger gets more powerful throughout the game, as the stamina upgrades (in combination with increasing your max health) strengthens it. It would probably end up busted when you deal enough to gib an acolyte with every punch.

 

A potential idea I had for the electric arrows could be that they stun machine-based enemies for a slight amount of time while also dealing more damage. No clue if that works well or not, but maybe worth a try?

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31 minutes ago, Alper002 said:

Yeah I dunno, the grenade launcher feels a bit too much like a rocket launcher without the danger of blowing yourself up in the face if you shoot a wall. Could do with less time before the grenades to explode perhaps?

 

Well personally speaking, I hate that aspect of the weapon. I admit that I am more a fan of Quake's grenade launcher. So naturally, I ended up making Strife's GL more similar to that. Still I'll try experimenting with lowering the timing to see if feels better.

 

31 minutes ago, Alper002 said:

The flamethrower's no longer shaky, but I think it should have some horizontal inaccuracy to make it still behave mostly similarly. While I have my reasons for liking the shakiness from a details perspective, non-shaky flamethrower is good from the perspective of a player :P

 

I actually did add a bit of horizontal inaccuracy. But perhaps you are right that it is not enough. I'll increase the inaccuracy slightly more.

 

32 minutes ago, Alper002 said:

Not too sure on the speedy dagger, even if it does speed up early game. It circumvents any sort of "fighting" you do with peasants if you go for daggering them, and it also makes the electric arrows pointless in early-game thanks to pain-state abuse. That might be a problem when the early-game is when the electric arrows are also anywhere near useful lol. Another thing is that the punchdagger gets more powerful throughout the game, as the stamina upgrades (in combination with increasing your max health) strengthens it. It would probably end up busted when you deal enough to gib an acolyte with every punch.

 

I actually have a plan about making electric arrows more useful by making them do much more damage to low-tier robot enemies (like the stalkers, sentinels and turrets) to a point where 1 (or 2 at max) shot would be enough to kill them.

 

32 minutes ago, Alper002 said:

Another thing is that the punchdagger gets more powerful throughout the game, as the stamina upgrades (in combination with increasing your max health) strengthens it. It would probably end up busted when you deal enough to gib an acolyte with every punch.

 

I feel that this shouldn't be much of an issue since low tier enemies are rarely ever clumped together where the rate-of-fire can play a role once the dagger is capable of gibbing enemies. And the high-tier enemies are just able to dish-out enough damage that it wouldn't be viable to use the dagger against them.

 

Still, I will experiment more with this change.

 

36 minutes ago, Alper002 said:

A potential idea I had for the electric arrows could be that they stun machine-based enemies for a slight amount of time while also dealing more damage. No clue if that works well or not, but maybe worth a try?

 

Well, this is also a neat idea to make electric bows useful (provided I can make it work somehow).

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1 hour ago, ReaperAA said:

And the high-tier enemies are just able to dish-out enough damage that it wouldn't be viable to use the dagger against them.

 

..Sort of correct. Their death explosions dish out enough damage. Not the enemies themselves though.

Inquisition.gif.fb2449c73f0566959aebb216befa1be7.gif

Note that this was with maximum stamina...

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So I have done a lot more changes in WIP balance mod. I also did a playthrough of the game to get a better understanding of the game and to test out the changes. I may provide the file tomorrow for feedback once I clean out some things.

 

I would also like to know how to balance the Inquisitor. Right now, it is either you kill him in a few seconds (using mauler's secondary mode) or he kills you in a few seconds (due to the grenades with ludicrous splash radius).

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12 minutes ago, ReaperAA said:

I would also like to know how to balance the Inquisitor. Right now, it is either you kill him in a few seconds (using mauler's secondary mode) or he kills you in a few seconds (due to the grenades with ludicrous splash radius).

It could do to mess with how quickly the inquisitor does its attacks, so the attacks don't feel as ridiculous in comparison to how quickly they're dealt out. A good counterbalance would then be to increase the inquisitors' health, and maybe minimize its' splash damage resistance so it doesn't take an eternity to kill when using explosive weapons. That way, there's more types of ammo you can use on it to counterbalance its' overall greater usage of ammo.

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10 minutes ago, Alper002 said:

It could do to mess with how quickly the inquisitor does its attacks, so the attacks don't feel as ridiculous in comparison to how quickly they're dealt out. A good counterbalance would then be to increase the inquisitors' health, and maybe minimize its' splash damage resistance so it doesn't take an eternity to kill when using explosive weapons. That way, there's more types of ammo you can use on it to counterbalance its' overall greater usage of ammo.

 

Good idea. I will try experimenting with the Inquisitor after I release the next version tomorrow.

 

Also, is it me or is the Sigil's 3rd stage (Sigil lvl 3) more powerful and useful than the 4th stage (Sigil lvl 4)? I tried them out using "give sigil3" and "give sigil4" console commands and after goofing around, I came to this conclusion.

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29 minutes ago, ReaperAA said:

Also, is it me or is the Sigil's 3rd stage (Sigil lvl 3) more powerful and useful than the 4th stage (Sigil lvl 4)? I tried them out using "give sigil3" and "give sigil4" console commands and after goofing around, I came to this conclusion.

From my own quick testing, I've come to the same conclusion. A single weirdly-shaped projectile isn't really as good as shooting a ring of projectiles around you. A proposition of a buff to the 4th sigil piece could be to make it generate such a ring on impact, or something along those lines. After testing the 5th level of the sigil though, I realize that would then need a buff of some sort as well... Perhaps the return of the lightning bolts from the first sigil-level?

I'm not entirely sure on my suggestions, but the Sigil's power progression could definitely be better.

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1 hour ago, Alper002 said:

From my own quick testing, I've come to the same conclusion. A single weirdly-shaped projectile isn't really as good as shooting a ring of projectiles around you. A proposition of a buff to the 4th sigil piece could be to make it generate such a ring on impact, or something along those lines. After testing the 5th level of the sigil though, I realize that would then need a buff of some sort as well... Perhaps the return of the lightning bolts from the first sigil-level?

I'm not entirely sure on my suggestions, but the Sigil's power progression could definitely be better.

They each have their own upsides and downsides.

First one is great near low ceiling areas as it can absolutely murder a crowd. It's a lot harder to use right IMO than all other levels but its creative use can make the game a breeze until 2nd piece is obtained.

Second one is the more direct damaging one but also kind of the jack of all trades, it doesn't really have a best use case scenario. It's a lot more accessible to the generic player.

Third one, the ring, absolutely destroys anything if more than half the projectiles hit. For reference, damage range on that assuming all hit is: 20 x (70 - 280) = 1400 - 5600. Let that sink in. For reference, again, Mauler 2nd mode fires 80 projectiles each doing (10 - 40) damage, resulting in a range of 800 - 3200 if all hit.

I think I can agree with you on the fact that 4th level might need a tiny bit of damage buff. It's range is 120 - 480 and it just homes. That's basically it. Granted the homing comes in really handy in certain situations but it's usually not very worth it to use even in the normal campaign. It's good against the Loremaster however, very good in fact.

 

I'd say don't touch level 5 sigil at all. Two or three good shots can kill an Entity easily. The trick with that one IIRC is to let it build up lightning as it goes as it creates more the more time it spends flying. The damage on that can be misleading if you look just at the numbers, in practice proper use of that is devastating. It doesn't help however you get very little opportunity to explore the full potential of it as the campaign is almost over by the time you acquire it. But it's a bit tricky to use and proper use of it is pretty effective.

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11 hours ago, IvanDobrovski said:

I'd say don't touch level 5 sigil at all. Two or three good shots can kill an Entity easily. The trick with that one IIRC is to let it build up lightning as it goes as it creates more the more time it spends flying. The damage on that can be misleading if you look just at the numbers, in practice proper use of that is devastating. It doesn't help however you get very little opportunity to explore the full potential of it as the campaign is almost over by the time you acquire it. But it's a bit tricky to use and proper use of it is pretty effective.

 

While I am certainly thinking about buffing level 4, I was also thinking about slightly buffing level 5 as well, because level 3 seems pretty powerful to me. Truth be told, I tried fighting Entity using Sigil 3 and I was easily able to defeat the Entity. Infact, I probably had an easier time killing the entity with level 3 than with level 5 Sigil. It took about 4-ish shots to kill the main one and then 2-ish shots to kill each of the 3 lesser ones.

 

But rest assured that if I ever buffed the level 5, I will also make sure to buff the Entity as well since the boss fight is pretty easy anyway.

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Sure but consider the fact that you get level 3 not to fight the Entity, but to fight sections of the campaign that it's intended. Granted it's very easy to hit all projectiles with level 3 if you're sufficiently close to a really large monster such as the Entity, which is why it probably wasn't made to be level 5. The problem of level 3 is that it puts you in a bit of a danger to use it to its fullest potential whereas level 5 doesn't possess such a thing, just the higher health consumption.

 

Entity boss fight is easy once you're fully decked out and know its teleport locations. If you don't get sudden teleport + level 3 attack of it then there's no way you can die. So in ways you might want to change it up yeah.

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The new version is here. I have made more balance changes from the previous version I posted.

StrifeBalanceB.zip

 

This is still a very WIP file so expect some anomalies. Do make sure to provide feedback.

 

The additions/changes compared to the previous build are:

Spoiler

- Fist/Dagger gets reduced rate of fire compared to previous build (but still very slightly faster from vanilla game)

- Flamethrower has its projectile spread(inaccuracy) increased and range slightly reduced from the previous build.

- Acolytes have their health reduced from 60/70 to 40/50 respectively.

- Electric bows do 50% more damage to most enemies and 300% (3X) damage to sentinels, stalkers and ceiling turrets. But to compensate for this, electric crossbow has its ammo capacity reduced by 30% and the electric crossbow ammo attained from pickups/purchase is reduced by 50%.

- Ceiling turrets have their health reduced from 125 to 100.

 

Currently working on:

- Thinking about a way to make Sigil's level 4 more useful.

- Tinkering with the mauler.

- Tinkering with the rest of enemies (especially the Inquisitor and the Entity).

 

On 5/13/2020 at 10:24 PM, Alper002 said:

Yeah I dunno, the grenade launcher feels a bit too much like a rocket launcher without the danger of blowing yourself up in the face if you shoot a wall. Could do with less time before the grenades to explode perhaps?

 

I tried experimenting with the lower explosion times, but I ended up not changing that because I like it most where it is at the moment.

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49 minutes ago, The Strife Commando said:

The reason for the weapons behaving like that is because of the stats system. The higher the stat, the better the weapons.

 

Stats are just one thing (which I am thinking about working with somehow) but even with high accuracy stats, some weapons just feel clunky.

 

- Take grenade launcher for example. Not only does it have a ridiculous arc, but the grenades also don't detonate on impact with enemies. To add insult to injury, the explosion radius is too big that it is extremely dangerous to use in close range.

- The Flamethrower has a terrible shaking effect when firing and has laughable range.

- The rocket launcher feels very weak because even the basic enemies (Acolytes) can sometimes survive a hit. In the WIP mod, I already made the rockets more powerful to make the weapon more satisfying (but reduced the ammo from pickups and also reduced ammo capacity).

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1 hour ago, ReaperAA said:

 

Stats are just one thing (which I am thinking about working with somehow) but even with high accuracy stats, some weapons just feel clunky.

 

- Take grenade launcher for example. Not only does it have a ridiculous arc, but the grenades also don't detonate on impact with enemies. To add insult to injury, the explosion radius is too big that it is extremely dangerous to use in close range.

- The Flamethrower has a terrible shaking effect when firing and has laughable range.

- The rocket launcher feels very weak because even the basic enemies (Acolytes) can sometimes survive a hit. In the WIP mod, I already made the rockets more powerful to make the weapon more satisfying (but reduced the ammo from pickups and also reduced ammo capacity).

They're mini rockets after all.

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10 hours ago, The Strife Commando said:

They're mini rockets after all.

 

Well yes, but they are still "rockets" nonetheless. A rocket that can't kill a soldier in a single hit would feel underwhelming.

 

Regarding poison bolts (which you mentioned on the other thread), yeah I agree with you. After playing the game a few times, I have realized that there are just enough poison bolts in the game to be sneaky from time to time. I have changed my mind on that idea.

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4 hours ago, ReaperAA said:

 

Well yes, but they are still "rockets" nonetheless. A rocket that can't kill a soldier in a single hit would feel underwhelming.

You have the same in Doom, where a Demon can survive a direct rocket hit if it rolls minimum damage (20+128) and it feels much worse. I never though "Well this sucks" with Strife RL but whenever that happens in Doom, I want to chew concrete.

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5 hours ago, idbeholdME said:

You have the same in Doom, where a Demon can survive a direct rocket hit if it rolls minimum damage (20+128) and it feels much worse. I never though "Well this sucks" with Strife RL but whenever that happens in Doom, I want to chew concrete.

 

In Doom, that happens very very rarely. And at least all the former human enemies go down 1 one shot (gibbed infact).

 

Basically, its not that the weapon is "not useful". The problem is that it doesn't "feel satisfying" to use (at least to me). I increased the damage per shot (while simultaneously reducing ammo capacity and ammo from pickups for balancing it out) to make it feel more satisfying.

 

In next build, I am also working on improving feedback of weapons by tweaking the animation sequence of weapon sprites and adding small amount of "recoil" like that in Strife: Veteran Edition.

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