Kernel-mode anticheat is a huge nope

[printz]

14 minutes ago, seed said:

It's very open-to-interpretation however. It just means they want to re-stabilize the game, and not remove the root cause (funny, "root").

 

Basically synonymous with treating the symptoms instead of the disease.

Well, the intent was to provide a maximum power (thus kernel) cheater buster, but without bugs. They're simply announcing they're aware of the known game bugs (slowness, instability). Anyway, this doesn't solve the other problems of having a hopefully benign root kit installed just for multiplayer guarding. Who knows with what other legit activities it will interfere? It sounds an awful lot like an unwanted antivirus shoehorned by IT admins (yeah, most antiviruses suck in my experience) annoying my normal workflow. Also, unlike antiviruses: since how long does this Denuvo Anti-Cheat exist on the market? Did they have time to test and refine it until there are no bugs? At least the antiviruses exist since forever...

 

Yeah, you're right, the root problem won't go away any soon if they only fix the Doom Eternal bugs.

[Cacodemon345]

The prior id games did make use of PunkBuster, which is an anti-cheat system at kernel level. So the question is: Did they mention something about that in the readme docs of Quake 3 Arena, Doom 3 and Quake Live at release time?

[seed]

4 minutes ago, Cacodemon345 said:

The prior id games did make use of PunkBuster

 

Doom 3

 

Wha-- uh...

 

What?!

[Quasar]

What a tone-deaf way to finally respond. I expected no better. The backlash is only getting worse too judging from the reply comments. Don't know what they hope to accomplish by ignoring it.

[Cacodemon345]

@seed At least this page says so: https://www.pcgamingwiki.com/wiki/PunkBuster

 

I would've expected id to wise up with the post-John Carmack period, but looks like they maybe didn't, and is employing shadier practices recently.

[seed]

5 minutes ago, Cacodemon345 said:

At least this page says so: https://www.pcgamingwiki.com/wiki/PunkBuster

 

https://www.moddb.com/games/doom-iii/tutorials/doom-3-creating-a-server

 

Quote

4. Click on "Advanced server options" and disable PunkBuster because it no longer supports Doom 3.

 

Oh thank goodness lol, it's fucking dead at least, and we have fan ports to use now. Good.

 

Guess I learned another new thing today: Doom 3 had PunkBuster. I had a small heart-attack when you wrote that, because I damn sure could not find it on my PC.

[Quasar]

Just now, seed said:

 

https://www.moddb.com/games/doom-iii/tutorials/doom-3-creating-a-server

 

 

Oh thank goodness lol, it's fucking dead at least, and we have fan ports to use now. Good.

 

Guess I learned another new thing today: Doom 3 had PunkBuster.

IIRC it was removed from v1.31 anyways.

[Cacodemon345]

Did Q3A had PunkBuster removed too? That would be funny.

[Dark Pulse]

Probably not as Q3 had support dropped long before Punkbuster died, but there's source ports now that no doubt don't have any Punkbuster stuff inside them, and I'd doubt many Punkbuster-enabled servers even still exist anymore.

[seed]

2 minutes ago, Quasar said:

IIRC it was removed from v1.31 anyways.

 

Yep, that seems correct. But ALSO,

 

https://www.pcgamingwiki.com/wiki/Doom_3

 

Apparently it used to have SafeDisc as well. But that's obviously gone even without knowing it since it wouldn't even boot up on W7 and newer nowadays - SafeDisc was disabled by an update at some point, and 10 removed it completely.

[Quasar]

4 hours ago, seed said:

 

Yep, that seems correct. But ALSO,

 

https://www.pcgamingwiki.com/wiki/Doom_3

 

Apparently it used to have SafeDisc as well. But that's obviously gone even without knowing it since it wouldn't even boot up on W7 and newer nowadays - SafeDisc was disabled by an update at some point, and 10 removed it completely.

Yeah I ran into that once. v1.2 wouldn't let me play it if I didn't terminate my ISO loading software first, because it figured you were trying to get around the CD check.

 

EDIT: Turns out that was 1.2; I remember now that I hadn't patched the game up at all yet at that point.

Edited May 18, 2020 by Quasar

[seed]

2 minutes ago, Quasar said:

Yeah I ran into that once. v1.3 wouldn't let me play it if I didn't terminate my ISO loading software first, because it figured you were trying to get around the CD check.

 

1.3? Hm that's interesting, the page refers to 1.2 as the one to remove it.

 

BTW slight off-topic, I was toying around with source ports today and something I instantly noticed was that the game felt a bit jittery (Dhewm3). I looked for some answers and what fixed it for me was com_fixedtick 1 while keeping r_swapinterval on 1 (I've read that interval controls VSync and the game speeds up if it goes above 60, so I left it on).

 

But what's the deal with this "fixedtick" thing? And why does it have 3 values, if not more? 0 is default, it can be changed to -1 but that made it worse for me, and 1 solved the jittery feel, but I have no idea what setting it on 1 actually does?? Just don't wanna screw up the game by accident.

[Dark Pulse]

3 minutes ago, seed said:

But what's the deal with this "fixedtick" thing? And why does it have 3 values, if not more? 0 is default, it can be changed to -1 but that made it worse for me, and 1 solved the jittery feel, but I have no idea what setting it on 1 actually does?? Just don't wanna screw up the game by accident.

IIRC it's basically what caps the framerate by working to keep tick values at a certain threshold. With it on, it's capped to 60 FPS.

[Foebane72]

How pervasive is online multiplayer cheating these days, anyway? The single game I spent most time online was was Team Fortress Classic, and I used to be very good at that back when it first launched. Then, a few years later, I drifted away from it, and then revisited its severely human-depleted servers a couple of years ago, and I was shocked at all the stunts the human players there were pulling, stuff I couldn't hope to achieve. I wonder if they'd either practiced for ages to perfect their skills, or used cheats. The "conc jumps" of Medics onto the ramparts in 2fort were particularly galling to me.

 

I haven't been online for multiplayer games like TFC (or TF2 or anything like that) for years now, because I assume my reflexes are poorer and so are my skills, but it's almost impossible to tell if the other players are cheating. I got pwned immediately from the start of TF2, so I grew to hate that game, Counter-Strike's problems (in all its forms) are well-documented, and things have only been getting worse.

 

I tend to play games like Q3A or UT with the bots, but then they're very predictable, so I can't win either way.

 

[seed]

9 minutes ago, Dark Pulse said:

IIRC it's basically what caps the framerate by working to keep tick values at a certain threshold. With it on, it's capped to 60 FPS.

 

I figured as much. Still, why are there 3 values then? And which one is which?

[Foebane72]

4 minutes ago, seed said:

 

I figured as much. Still, why are there 3 values then? And which one is which?

 

Have you tried typing in the command without a value? It might list possible values and what they do.

 

[Dark Pulse]

5 minutes ago, seed said:

I figured as much. Still, why are there 3 values then? And which one is which?

It's an integer value in the code, so presumably, -1 is auto, 0 is off, 1 is on in some form. It's not a boolean; -1 wouldn't work if so, and so this means values of 2, 3, etc. should also have some effect.

 

I wouldn't know more without someone who's a proper coder type going through the source code and elaborating, though.

[chemo]

By the way, is there any real evidence that DAC is what's resulting in performance issues and instability to begin with? Some other addition(s) to the update could be what's inadvertently causing it.

 

If there's something that could back this up then yeah, that's not a good look for this anti-cheat. If not, then stop jumping to conclusions with potential misinformation.

[Edward850]

7 hours ago, seed said:

And with these hex edit findings, I think that we now know for sure that the DRM-free executable that shipped with the game at launch was absolutely no accident.

It absolutely was an accident. Strings don't mean squat, that's just how C strings compilers work. If you open up a Kex executable you'll find all sorts of weird shit, that doesn't mean we premeditate anything. 

[printz]

5 minutes ago, Edward850 said:

It absolutely was an accident. Strings don't mean squat, that's just how C strings compilers work. If you open up a Kex executable you'll find all sorts of weird shit, that doesn't mean we premeditate anything. 

This sounds like an excellent opportunity to bait players with alarming stories if they look in the executables :)

[Doom_Dude]

I'm really not happy with any of this and I do not like having an $80 brick I can't use.

 

So I was looking for info on refunds. This HappyGamer site has an article that says that Steam IS accepting refunds.

 

Quote

They offer some words of advice: you’ll likely have your first refund attempt rejected by a seemingly automatic system that checks users’ playtime and how long it has been since you’ve purchased the title. By explaining the situation entirely, the refund will more than likely come through on your second attempt.

 

So I just went ahead and sent in my second refund request. I hope this one goes through.

 

I also made sure to post a negative review on Steam this morning. They are down to 54% now.

Edited May 18, 2020 by Doom_Dude

[Man of Doom]

So an update from Hugo Martin himself:

 

 

[AtimZarr1]

2016 - Multiplayer beta negatively received (37%); MP itself isn't liked at release; reviews affect sales probably

 

Eternal - Multiplayer anti-cheat negatively received (54%); MP itself isn't liked already; reviews affect sales probably

 

---

 

Can they stop hitting themselves with MP? Twice in a row is just silly. Put in co-op/horde-mode/snapmap-2.0 next time or something.

[icecoldduke]

17 minutes ago, AtimZarr1 said:

2016 - Multiplayer beta negatively received (37%); MP itself isn't liked at release; reviews affect sales probably

 

Eternal - Multiplayer anti-cheat negatively received (54%); MP itself isn't liked already; reviews affect sales probably

 

---

 

Can they stop hitting themselves with MP? Twice in a row is just silly. Put in co-op/horde-mode/snapmap-2.0 next time or something.

I liked Doom 2016 multiplayer, both in the beta and at release. I hated Eternal MP, and have uninstalled the game because of the anti tamper bits. I would love to see coop mode in Doom Eternal that would be awesome, or any kind of PvE. 

[Quasar]

52 minutes ago, Man of Doom said:

So an update from Hugo Martin himself:

 

 

Still no mention of the big D word. Pretty clear everybody's tongue is being tied by the upper management at ZeniMax.

[DesecratorJ]

So regarding this whole thing going on, should I ask for a refund or wait to see if something will happen to fix this? I'm kind of confused about what should I do at this point.

[Edward850]

17 minutes ago, DesecratorJ said:

So regarding this whole thing going on, should I ask for a refund or wait to see if something will happen to fix this? I'm kind of confused about what should I do at this point.

Here's the rundown: DAC was added to Eternal post launch. Some people don't like DAC because it runs as a kernel driver (like most other anti-cheat solutions). Denuvo themselves have reported that an upcoming update (no timeline, it's the weekend and Bethesda/Id would need to report it anyway) will make it so you can have DAC uninstalled and still play the singleplayer. The are scattered reports of crashes and performance issues that have not been linked to DAC at this time, and Marty Stratton has reported they are investigating those right now.

 

If you want to refund the game or not comes down to how you personally feel as though having such an anti-cheat solution even associated with the product.

[Vic Vos]

2 hours ago, chemo said:

is there any real evidence that DAC is what's resulting in performance issues and instability to begin with?

DAC is a new thing, so performance measurings are probably gonna take some time. But Denuvo Anti-Tamper was proven, time and time again (Overlord Gaming on Youtube, for instance), to reduce performance and increase load times.

[Edward850]

14 minutes ago, Vic Vos said:

But Denuvo Anti-Tamper was proven, time and time again (Overlord Gaming on Youtube, for instance), to reduce performance and increase load times.

Yes and no. To quote Kinsie (post from a different forum):

Quote

The guy who unfucked the Dark Souls 1 PC port way back when did some tests a couple of years ago using the unprotected demo and protected full version of Final Fantasy 15, and wasn't able to find any effect on performance.

It'll be interesting to see the same tests if they were done on the launch version of Doom Eternal.

[chemo]

15 minutes ago, Vic Vos said:

DAC is a new thing, so performance measurings are probably gonna take some time. But Denuvo Anti-Tamper was proven, time and time again (Overlord Gaming on Youtube, for instance), to reduce performance and increase load times.

Anti-Tamper and Anti-Cheat are two different things, and this is still just speculation.