Kernel-mode anticheat is a huge nope

[Super Mighty G]

Just when you thought Bethesda couldn't screw this up. I underestimated them. 

[Quasar]

In the wake of the responses so far (we have no confirmation from id or Bethesda that anything will change about the implementation yet, only a second-hand statement from Denuvo on the matter), let's sum some things up:

• There are performance and stability issues in the newest build
• The newest build also adds the anti-cheat
• These are not necessarily related, because many other changes were also made in this build, some of them very fundamental to the game engine

This leaves a very real chance that the narrative will turn to "They fixed the bugs and crashes, everyone should be happy now." I want to be clear that my problems have never been based on an assumption that the bugs and perf issues are related to Denuvo. While I'll be happy to see those fixed, that alone doesn't answer my concerns and nor should it serve as a placebo for others with the same opinions of how this has been implemented.

 

Also, am I the only one frustrated that Hugo treats the Doom facebook group like it's the sum of the Doom community? I mean if I had to pick a segment of such to have the king's share of his attention that'd be the dead LAST place I'd pick based on the stuff I've seen go on in there before.

[Dark Pulse]

24 minutes ago, Quasar said:

Also, am I the only one frustrated that Hugo treats the Doom facebook group like it's the sum of the Doom community? I mean if I had to pick a segment of such to have the king's share of his attention that'd be the dead LAST place I'd pick based on the stuff I've seen go on in there before.

To be fair, it's impossible for him to post to every single place where Doomers exist.

 

That said, I'd prefer an approach of there being its own space carved out where news could be centralized; for example, a subreddit or a Discord server.

 

But well, most just stick to the usual Facebook/Twitter duopoly and call it a day.

[Caffeine Freak]

24 minutes ago, Quasar said:

Also, am I the only one frustrated that Hugo treats the Doom facebook group like it's the sum of the Doom community? I mean if I had to pick a segment of such to have the king's share of his attention that'd be the dead LAST place I'd pick based on the stuff I've seen go on in there before.

 

I mean, it's pretty fair to assume that anything he posts on a major platform regarding an issue like this is going to be instantaneously relayed to all the other nodes of the Doom community hub. I wouldn't choose Facebook either, but truthfully it probably seems the most obvious choice to him, since he interacts with hundreds of Doom fans on his personal FB account. 

[Lagrotta85]

Hey guys.
So, I have been making some tests on my PC over DAC impact on performance on Doom Eternal, and I haven't been able to find any negative impact on performance at all. Bear in mind, my rig is a 8700k @5.1ghz, 16gb paired with a 1080ti, so this may not be true to everyone.

I've been playing in 4k with dynamic resolution on, and since the update I've noted some resolution drops and turned on the metrics to check, and I could confirm it, I was getting some resolution drops (to up 70% rs).

So I've decided to downgrade my Doom Eternal instalation to the previous version before the patch and the DAC requirement. I've followed this guide:
https://steamcommunity.com/app/782330/guides/

After that, I removed DAC from my PC and launched Eternal to test the performance, and to my surprise, it was the same that I was getting after the patch (rs drops to 70% on more demanding parts).

So, that's it. Just wanted to shared my experience with you.
Cheers

[Edward850]

@Lagrotta85 Interesting find. I've heard a theory that a recent graphics driver update may be the cause of the performance drop, and your results seem to indicate there might be something to that. Annoyingly, what we currently lack is benchmarks from further back (to push aside any kind of confirmation bias), and information on what graphics driver might have cause it (if that is indeed the case). Also if DAC would affect anything, it would be CPU performance, not GPU, so resolution drops certainly don't match what would be expected.

[seed]

7 hours ago, Edward850 said:

It absolutely was an accident. Strings don't mean squat, that's just how C strings compilers work. If you open up a Kex executable you'll find all sorts of weird shit, that doesn't mean we premeditate anything. 

 

Alright then, no need to get angry at me. I still respectfully choose to disagree, however.

[Edward850]

20 minutes ago, seed said:

 

Alright then, no need to get angry at me. I still respectfully choose to disagree, however.

So you honestly think somebody went out of their way to purposefully sabotage their current and future job prospects just to release a DRM-less build? I'm not sure how you think jobs work, but that's the sort of thing the gets you extremely fired, black listed (remember, HR departments talk) and potentially subject to legal action if it gets figured out that it's not just some sort of simple mistake. 

That would be an insane sacrifice, especially in this economy. No rational adult would do that. 

[Lagrotta85]

1 hour ago, Edward850 said:

@Lagrotta85 Interesting find. I've heard a theory that a recent graphics driver update may be the cause of the performance drop, and your results seem to indicate there might be something to that. Annoyingly, what we currently lack is benchmarks from further back (to push aside any kind of confirmation bias), and information on what graphics driver might have cause it (if that is indeed the case). Also if DAC would affect anything, it would be CPU performance, not GPU, so resolution drops certainly don't match what would be expected.

 

I'm on Nvidia Drivers 445.87. As CPU performance, I've just checked. Both versions of the game are ocupying 25-35% of CPU utilization during the 2nd Hyperion Gate. And yes, I did remenbered to remove DAC before running the unpatched version. And I'm getting no stuttering or bad frame pacing on the patched one.

 

Also, those resolution drops may also been happening since the release of the game, but I was simply not noticing them. But usually I'm sensitive to resolution changes.

Edited May 18, 2020 by Lagrotta85

[Death Metal 2000]

Not only did this update add literal malware to your computer which sends information to Amazon, the new update messed up the performance and made the game easier by dumbing down certain enemy AIs and changing environmental challenges. At this point I will just torrent the game and refund the physical copy I got from EB Games (Australian consumer laws will more than likely allow me to do this considering the circumstances of false advertising and allowing spyware on your computer).

 

I do not blame Bethesda for this, because it's pretty obvious that id Software were planning on adding this from the start when you look at the executables even from the get-go on launch date. It's id Software's fault and not Bethesda who simply published the game, people who turn a blind eye to id Software and just scream "Bethesda" are really jumping on the bandwagon just like they did with the Mick Gordon situation.

 

Just to add, I did not jump on the bandwagon. I can't even play the game functionally anymore, and even if they do roll it back (which they won't, because they said they'll keep it for multiplayer which obviously includes invasion mode which I was really looking forward to the most out of the rest of the sequel itself) I wouldn't honestly care, the fact that any goddamn company considers a downgrade for a game an update is out of their minds. Updates shouldn't mess up things and kill the game, they're supposed to do the opposite.

[StevieWolfe]

1 hour ago, Edward850 said:

So you honestly think somebody went out of their way to purposefully sabotage their current and future job prospects just to release a DRM-less build? I'm not sure how you think jobs work, but that's the sort of thing the gets you extremely fired, black listed (remember, HR departments talk) and potentially subject to legal action if it gets figured out that it's not just some sort of simple mistake. 

That would be an insane sacrifice, especially in this economy. No rational adult would do that. 

This post certifies that you have no idea of the absolute state of things regarding gaming as an industry.  Please quit living under whatever rock you've chosen to take residence and read a few articles about what people working in that business have to deal with even from AAA studios before thinking it's like any other industry that has respect whatsoever for its workers.

 

[Edward850]

43 minutes ago, StevieWolfe said:

This post certifies that you have no idea of the absolute state of things regarding gaming as an industry.  Please quit living under whatever rock you've chosen to take residence and read a few articles about what people working in that business have to deal with even from AAA studios before thinking it's like any other industry that has respect whatsoever for its workers.

You know I work in the industry, right? I recently helped do a thing called Doom64. I have explicit knowledge of what's going on from many corners, probably more so than some due to the fingers in many pies we have. While yes, the industry in the AAA sector has some serious issues that crop up such as the numerous allegations of crunch that occur, nobody is throwing away their jobs and risking the prospect of legal action just to sneak DRM-less builds around their employers.

 

To be abundantly clear this is just about if somebody intentionally or accidentally leaked a DRM-less build, not anything to do with if DAC was pre-planned.

Edited May 18, 2020 by Edward850

[Cacodemon345]

The evidence presented in this thread itself about the anti-cheat should tell you if the whole thing was pre-planned or not. And even if someone leaked the DRM-free build, he did that because he would rather spend his time in the jail or leave his job rather than silently supporting the bullshit widely hated by Doom gamers.

 

And the legal action itself would speak volumes about how broken the legal system in the US is.

[Edward850]

20 minutes ago, Cacodemon345 said:

And the legal action itself would speak volumes about how broken the legal system in the US is.

This is universal to any job around the world, not just in the US. I would be held to the exact same standard even though I'm in New Zealand, I couldn't just hand somebody here a standard build of Doom64 without serious repercussions, for example.

20 minutes ago, Cacodemon345 said:

And even if someone leaked the DRM-free build, he did that because he would rather spend his time in the jail or leave his job rather than silently supporting the bullshit widely hated by Doom gamers.

Well we haven't heard of any legal cases recently so we can actively rule that out. The last one, excluding the company that reused Bethesda's engine without permission, was in fact John Carmack. Such legal cases aren't typically hidden.

Edited May 18, 2020 by Edward850

[seed]

1 hour ago, Edward850 said:

So you honestly think somebody went out of their way to purposefully sabotage their current and future job prospects just to release a DRM-less build? I'm not sure how you think jobs work, but that's the sort of thing the gets you extremely fired, black listed (remember, HR departments talk) and potentially subject to legal action if it gets figured out that it's not just some sort of simple mistake. 

That would be an insane sacrifice, especially in this economy. No rational adult would do that. 

 

Maybe, yes, and please stop thinking I'm an idiot - that's the impression I'm getting, from parts of your comment, anyway -, I'm well aware od the legal implications of such an action.

 

Besides, it's not like we'll ever know for sure, so all we can do is speculate. And if we ever do, I'm looking forward to being proven wrong, as always.

 

1 hour ago, Death Metal 2000 said:

I do not blame Bethesda for this, because it's pretty obvious that id Software were planning on adding this from the start when you look at the executables even from the get-go on launch date. It's id Software's fault and not Bethesda who simply published the game, people who turn a blind eye to id Software and just scream "Bethesda" are really jumping on the bandwagon just like they did with the Mick Gordon situation.

 

But here is the thing: Eternal is a singleplayer-focused title, it's not like they ever focused so much on the MP side to begin with, or ever will, so adding such an extreme anti-cheat measure for a component they weren't even very invested in, is just highly questionable. Remember: D2016 also had its DRM completely removed with its last update, so what we're seeing here pretty much goes completely against what ultimately happened to that game.

 

Also note the complete silence we're seeing from both id and Bethesda regarding the anti-cheat, there have been zero mentions of it whatsoever. It's quite obvious their mouths are shut for one reason or another, and no attempts at clarifying the whole deal have been made thus far, and likely won't be either.

[Cacodemon345]

From the recent impressions here about the DAC, it seems that performance complaints are, well, mixed? Just in the first few pages of the thread I felt like the performance complaints were real. But it is looking more and more like the performance complaints are mixed at best or refutable at worst.

 

Of course, I do know about the history of anti-cheats never having been exploited, although Capcom's anti-cheat driver was about to be the first anti-cheat to be exploited before it got quickly pulled.

 

Meanwhile, only half of the recent Steam reviews are positive. Someone here sent the Denuvo driver sample to an anti-virus company, so we can be sure if it is indeed a security risk or not should the company respond.

[printz]

Stop talking about DRM and Denuvo Anti-Tamper. This thread is about the Denuvo Anti-Cheat kernel driver. You're involuntarily weakening our case by mixing them up (this is not addressed to the above poster in particular, but I saw samples of this mistake above).

 

It also doesn't help that people are trying to separate the performance issue from the DAC's presence. It would be great if research continues on whether DAC has any influence on that.

[Quasar]

4 minutes ago, printz said:

Stop talking about DRM and Denuvo Anti-Tamper. This thread is about the Denuvo Anti-Cheat kernel driver. You're involuntarily weakening our case by mixing them up.

 

It also doesn't help that people are trying to separate the performance issue from the DAC's presence. It would be great if research continues on whether DAC has any influence on that.

Don't yell. Also I've only seen a couple of people mix those up in this entire thread so far.

 

And yes we don't know if there's really any impact or not. My take is that I don't care if there's an impact or not in that regard, because my objection is to the entire presence of the thing as a mandatory install.

[ZalgoC0meth]

Hi guys, I'm a bit of an ancient (like, 2000, everyone loved Photoshop Phriday and Cliff Yablonski days) past member and I was curious to see what the hubbub looked like here (love what you've done with the place, btw!)

 

So to get right down to it, if you want to try and discourage this behavior, I'd like to show you a consumer complaint I filed with my state Attorney General's office that might serve as a template for anyone looking to file any kind of consumer complaint supplemental to the FTC complaint links I have seen here (which is also a good idea): https://imgur.com/a/reJDBHG

 

I'd urge anyone in the US to consider this as their first stop to filing consumer complaints about Steam or BNET (Steam has denied my refund requests 4 times now); typically the role of the attorney general's office is to enforce the law as prescribed by the constitution, state laws, and to protect the consumer rights of its residents (this is where you'd go to, for example, report price gouging on coronavirus-related supplies, or fraud). Beyond that, then it's time to consider the federal agencies.

 

In my opinion, this is the manner in which we need to react to Bethesda's fuckery these days. When they have this insulating layer of social media and forum ban / ignore buttons to control the narrative, the angry posts don't do much (that said, I left a less than nice post to Bethesda on their forums about this shitshow, and I do not know it will do much). But if we follow through by taking the legal high ground and applying pressure via our consumer protection authorities, we could probably get more done than we'd believe possible about this kind of shit business practice.

 

Hope all is well, good to see you guys are still at it! 

[Cacodemon345]

There's also an interesting thing: The positive reviews are even mentioning Denuvo Anti-Cheat but is giving positive reviews anyway because the game is otherwise good. I can't blame them for that.

 

There's also that review mentioning the `download_depot` commands, but I haven't tested it at all.

[GooberMan]

3 hours ago, StevieWolfe said:

This post certifies that you have no idea of the absolute state of things regarding gaming as an industry.

 

An Expertus Wikipedius in the wild!

[Cacodemon345]

https://web.archive.org/web/20191105161102/https://www.tweakguides.com/Piracy_9.html

I found this link a while ago.

[Quasar]

8 minutes ago, Cacodemon345 said:

https://web.archive.org/web/20191105161102/https://www.tweakguides.com/Piracy_9.html

I found this link a while ago.

A lot of this narrative seems to contradict other reliable sources. It also excuses a lot of things on basis of perceived necessity ("blame the pirates") or with logical fallacies (such as "whataboutism" - "what about these ISO mounting tools that act like file system drivers?" - yeah what about them, aren't they required to do so in order to even work?). Not a good source IMHO.

[Foebane72]

I think what irks many, besides the implications of Denuvo Anti-Cheat, is that many have been forced to abandon the game they spent £50 or $60 on, at least temporarily, especially those who didn't get to play much of the game (if any) and now can't get a refund.

 

What I want to know is, why did Doom Eternal cost so much (and even more for a fat deluxe edition) when Doom 2016 only cost £30 back in 2016?

 

It's almost surreal how things are coming full circle for me concerning Doom: My first ever Doom game purchase when I ditched my Amiga in favour of a 486 PC, was Doom 2 on CD-ROM, costing me £50! Back in 1995! And now, 25 years later, Doom Eternal, my last Doom game purchase, also costs me £50! Weird, huh?

 

EDIT: The real kicker was that I got £50 from selling my Amiga 500, exactly the amount I needed for Doom 2! Even more weird, huh??

 

[Quasar]

21 minutes ago, Foebane72 said:

I think what irks many, besides the implications of Denuvo Anti-Cheat, is that many have been forced to abandon the game they spent £50 or $60 on, at least temporarily, especially those who didn't get to play much of the game (if any) and now can't get a refund.

 

What I want to know is, why did Doom Eternal cost so much (and even more for a fat deluxe edition) when Doom 2016 only cost £30 back in 2016?

 

It's almost surreal how things are coming full circle for me concerning Doom: My first ever Doom game purchase when I ditched my Amiga in favour of a 486 PC, was Doom 2 on CD-ROM, costing me £50! Back in 1995! And now, 25 years later, Doom Eternal, my last Doom game purchase, also costs me £50! Weird, huh?

 

EDIT: The real kicker was that I got £50 from selling my Amiga 500, exactly the amount I needed for Doom 2! Even more weird, huh??

 

Erm, the starting price for Doom '16 in the US was $60, or $120 for the collector's edition. Doom Eternal is $60 for the base game, $90 for the deluxe, and $200 for the collector's ed. The CE price increase was due to the significantly better and larger array of "stuff" in the box, including the helmet, which is clearly not a super-cheaply-made item.

[Cacodemon345]

(Hopefully I am not turning the thread into a inquiry-fested thread)

 

Did the original EULA state of Doom Eternal state something about adding additional services to ensure game integrity?

[Foebane72]

24 minutes ago, Quasar said:

Erm, the starting price for Doom '16 in the US was $60, or $120 for the collector's edition.

 

I swear it only cost me £30 very soon after opening day in the UK. I remember that price, as it got it refunded soon after as I found my PC couldn't quite run it properly yet.

 

[Dark Pulse]

1 hour ago, Foebane72 said:

I think what irks many, besides the implications of Denuvo Anti-Cheat, is that many have been forced to abandon the game they spent £50 or $60 on, at least temporarily, especially those who didn't get to play much of the game (if any) and now can't get a refund.

 

What I want to know is, why did Doom Eternal cost so much (and even more for a fat deluxe edition) when Doom 2016 only cost £30 back in 2016?

 

It's almost surreal how things are coming full circle for me concerning Doom: My first ever Doom game purchase when I ditched my Amiga in favour of a 486 PC, was Doom 2 on CD-ROM, costing me £50! Back in 1995! And now, 25 years later, Doom Eternal, my last Doom game purchase, also costs me £50! Weird, huh?

 

EDIT: The real kicker was that I got £50 from selling my Amiga 500, exactly the amount I needed for Doom 2! Even more weird, huh??

Mind you, £50 back then was worth a lot more than £50 now.

[GooberMan]

1 hour ago, Foebane72 said:

I think what irks many, besides the implications of Denuvo Anti-Cheat, is that many have been forced to abandon the game they spent £50 or $60 on

"Doomers held at gunpoint forced to stop playing their game"

 

The only people actually forced to stop playing the game is the ones the publisher/Denuvo is considering (ie people playing through Proton on Linux, people getting crashes that might be unrelated since it's a whole new update, etc) and cheaters whose cheats are broken. Everyone else is just taking an ideological stand.

Which, you know, is fine. It's your money. I just find it hilarious considering how many other bad drivers people install daily that an anti-cheat driver is the hill they've chosen.

 

(Ask me about how soon encrypted-memory-by-default should be the hardware standard, since that'll make the need to out-cheat the cheaters much less relevant.)

[Linguica]

How soon should encrypted-memory-by-default be the hardware standard, Gooberman?