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Quasar

Kernel-mode anticheat is a huge nope

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25 minutes ago, Doom64hunter said:

Honestly, I understand the concerns why having an anticheat with kernel privileges is a potential security issue, but if gamers really gave a shit about what's running on their machine then most of them wouldn't be running Windows.

The ones that werent' can't even run Doom Eternal at all now because Denuvo shuts it down.

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24 minutes ago, Doom64hunter said:

Honestly, I understand the concerns why having an anticheat with kernel privileges is a potential security issue, but if gamers really gave a shit about what's running on their machine then most of them wouldn't be running Windows.

 

Please no.

 

We really don't need yet another pointless "Windows sucks, move to Linux or macOS if you actually care" debate in this topic...

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1 minute ago, seed said:

move to Linux

I'd just like to interject for a moment. What you're referring to as Linux, is in fact, GNU/Linux, or as I've recently taken to calling it, GNU plus Linux. Linux is not an operating system unto itself, but rather another free component of a fully functioning GNU system yadda yadda yadda you know the pasta.

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10 minutes ago, Quasar said:

and under their EULA, they instantly own anything you create 100%.

 

Wait a minute, wtf? I need to go back to read it in full when I have time then.

 

This essentially is ActiBlizzard 2.0 territory then, who also, under their Terms of Use, instantly own anything you create are can also not offer you jack shit for your work when they decide to take it away from you.

Edited by seed

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All uses of the Editor and any materials created using the Editor (the “New Materials”) are for Your own personal, non-commercial use solely in connection with the applicable Product, subject to the terms and conditions of this Agreement


 

Quote

1.RESTRICTIONS ON USE
[... ]
If You distribute or otherwise make available New Materials, You automatically grant to Bethesda Softworks the irrevocable, perpetual, royalty free, sublicensable right and license under all applicable copyrights and intellectual property rights laws to use, reproduce, modify, adapt, perform, display, distribute and otherwise exploit and/or dispose of the New Materials (or any part of the New Materials) in any way Bethesda Softworks, or its respective designee(s), sees fit.  You also waive and agree never to assert against Bethesda Softworks or its affiliates, distributors or licensors any moral rights or similar rights, however designated, that You may have in or to any of the New Materials.  If You commit any breach of this Agreement, Your right to use the Editor under this Agreement shall automatically terminate, without notice.

 

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1 minute ago, Quasar said:

*list of scummy practices and douchebaggery*

 

Absolutely pathetic.

 

Yup, ActiBlizzard 2.0 it is then. Welp, so much for mod support, it was nice while the dream lasted...

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I wonder now - do user wads on /idgames belong to Bethesda? They had to directly contact wad authors for inclusion in the new ports, sooo...?
The question I'm trying to ask here - can Bethesda one day take the Samson option and just pull the plug on everything, somehow revoke the GPL license on Doom Engine code? We're talking about a potential massive goldmine for Bethesda here in terms of paid mods.

Edited by Vic Vos

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Just now, seed said:

 

Wait a minute, wtf? I need to go back to read it in full when I have time then.

 

This essentially is ActiBlizzard 2.0 territory then, who also, under their Terms of Use, they instantly own anything you create are can also not offer you jack shit for your worth while they take it away from you.


Blizzard added that shit after Dota 2 became a success and they couldn't get a slice of that pie. Of course by doing this they've basically ensured that no sane or knowledgeable person will ever put any significant effort into custom games. Either they are so fucking greedy that they're willing to kill off any modding community for the ghost of a profit, or they're acting like a dog in a manger and just killing off modding out of sheer bull-headed spite.

It's very distressing that Doom Eternal is also getting this treatment. Imagine if classic Doom had got this kind of shoddy treatment in its early days; it would have become utterly dead within a couple of years, there would never have been such a strong community lasting for literal decades, and I think it's reasonable to say that the big-selling modern triple-AAA game we call Doom Eternal owes not just its success, but its very existence that community.

If DAC isn't removed, then I can easily Doom Eternal becoming an ironically-named footnote in the history of the Doom series.

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3 minutes ago, Vic Vos said:

I wonder now - do user wads on /idgames belong to Bethesda? They had to directly contact wad authors for inclusion in the new ports, sooo...?
The question I'm trying to ask here - can Bethesda one day just pull the plug on everything, somehow revoke the GPL license on Doom Engine code? We're talking about a potential massive goldmine for Bethesda here.

 

As far as I understand, actually no, they can't. This topic surfaced again in a different context.

 

The advantage of open-sourcing in this context is that the decision cannot be so easily revoked, like "yup, let shut this thing down and sit here and laugh". It can't be easily reversed retroactively.

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3 minutes ago, NoXion said:


Blizzard added that shit after Dota 2 became a success and they couldn't get a slice of that pie. Of course by doing this they've basically ensured that no sane or knowledgeable person will ever put any significant effort into custom games. Either they are so fucking greedy that they're willing to kill off any modding community for the ghost of a profit, or they're acting like a dog in a manger and just killing off modding out of sheer bull-headed spite.

It's very distressing that Doom Eternal is also getting this treatment. Imagine if classic Doom had got this kind of shoddy treatment in its early days; it would have become utterly dead within a couple of years, there would never have been such a strong community lasting for literal decades, and I think it's reasonable to say that the big-selling modern triple-AAA game we call Doom Eternal owes not just its success, but its very existence that community.

If DAC isn't removed, then I can easily Doom Eternal becoming an ironically-named footnote in the history of the Doom series.

What they should have done is release a clean, no denuvo anti tamper, or obfuscated executable, that lets you log into singleplayer and maybe a open realm similar to Diablo 2. Then they could have a protected executable that only logs into a closed realm that's super protected for users that want a clean, Doom Eternal experience without cheating. 

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1 minute ago, seed said:

 

As far as I understand, actually no, they can't. This topic surfaced again in a different context.

 

The advantage of open-sourcing in this context is that the decision cannot be so easily revoked, like "yup, let shut this thing down and sit here and laugh". It can't be easily reversed retroactively.

For once, I am relieved.

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2 minutes ago, icecoldduke said:

What they should have done is release a clean, no denuvo anti tamper, or obfuscated executable, that lets you log into singleplayer and maybe a open realm similar to Diablo 2. Then they could have a protected executable that only logs into a closed realm that's super protected for users that want a clean, Doom Eternal experience without cheating. 

 

Splitting SP and MP is something that did cross my mind as well, and if this shit is here to stay, it would be a very welcome change.

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43 minutes ago, Graf Zahl said:

Oh, come on, we do not need Linux turf wars in this discussion.

 

No, but we could dream of simpler times where a videogame was just a videogame. No online updates, no security issues, no subscriptions. Doom came from such an era, FWIW, with PC gaming being what it was at the time.

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30 minutes ago, Quasar said:

If they do appear it'll be in a very controlled form, like SnapMap. They're ok with that kind of thing because the content never leaves their systems and cannot be separated from the game itself, can only utilize pre-approved assets and methodologies, is safe for distribution to consoles, and under their EULA, they instantly own anything you create 100%. Given the rest of Bethesda tries to push paid modding, it might even take that direction eventually.

I see two directions here which seem contrary, but look like win-win:

  1. id/Bethesda has great control over what can be modded and not. Also they own what you create.
  2. But you can get paid for it!

Seems like you're making maps for Bethesda and can get compensated for it! I don't like that the paid mod idea was shot down so far, it was a great idea to have a fun second job.

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Just now, icecoldduke said:

What they should have done is release a clean, no denuvo anti tamper, or obfuscation executable, that lets you log into singleplayer and maybe a open realm similar to Diablo 2. Then they could have a protected executable that only logs into a closed realm that's super protected for users that want a clean, Doom Eternal experience without cheating. 


I'd be OK with something like that, at least from the perspective of my own system security. To be honest I reckon that's the best outcome that I could reasonably expect.

I'd still not be at all happy with the normalisation of highly intrusive software to deal with ultimately trivial shit. And that would still be the case even if there was a significant fraction of the DE playerbase on multiplayer. As it is I'm hoping that the combination of deceptive practices, player reaction and low multiplayer numbers means that this whole fiasco acts as an impediment to this creeping creepiness that video game publishers think is acceptable to inflict on their victims paying customers.

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Has anyone tried redirecting the AWS ip for the Denuvo Anti Tamper stuff to localhost and see what happens? I'd try it myself but I uninstalled Doom Eternal when I got wind of the ring 0 bits. 

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1 hour ago, Quasar said:

1.RESTRICTIONS ON USE
[... ]
If You distribute or otherwise make available New Materials, You automatically grant to Bethesda Softworks the irrevocable, perpetual, royalty free, sublicensable right and license under all applicable copyrights and intellectual property rights laws to use, reproduce, modify, adapt, perform, display, distribute and otherwise exploit and/or dispose of the New Materials (or any part of the New Materials) in any way Bethesda Softworks, or its respective designee(s), sees fit.  You also waive and agree never to assert against Bethesda Softworks or its affiliates, distributors or licensors any moral rights or similar rights, however designated, that You may have in or to any of the New Materials.  If You commit any breach of this Agreement, Your right to use the Editor under this Agreement shall automatically terminate, without notice.

 

Is this from the Doom Eternal EULA ? 

*Edit: Nevermind just realised it's from the Creation Kit

Edited by Oplexitie

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1 hour ago, printz said:

I see two directions here which seem contrary, but look like win-win:

  1. id/Bethesda has great control over what can be modded and not. Also they own what you create.
  2. But you can get paid for it!

Seems like you're making maps for Bethesda and can get compensated for it! I don't like that the paid mod idea was shot down so far, it was a great idea to have a fun second job.

 

Well it's not a bad idea, Valve does it. But from what I remember each time Bethesda tried to do the same thing they were really greedy about it. 

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1 hour ago, printz said:

I see two directions here which seem contrary, but look like win-win:

  1. id/Bethesda has great control over what can be modded and not. Also they own what you create.
  2. But you can get paid for it!

Seems like you're making maps for Bethesda and can get compensated for it! I don't like that the paid mod idea was shot down so far, it was a great idea to have a fun second job.

 

One problem: Just like Actiblizzard's EULA, you're at their mercy, depending on what they want to do.

 

Namely, if they choose to take your work, not only that they can, but you can also cry a river if they choose to not give you jack shit in return for the hard work, they still won't give you a dime.

 

As for me, the idea of monetized mods is an idea that mostly works only on paper. Not because content creators don't deserve it - quite the contrary actually -, but because it can be far too easily abused by spoiled kids/individuals who would demand far more for their work than its worth - imagine, say, 10$ for a golden Doom Slayer skin. And also monetize the crap out of their stuff, because why not, after all?

 

I am not opposed to the idea, but I am seriously worried about its potential consequences and the abuse that could be done. Until an ideal solution is found, better off putting up a donation link on your page, I'll gladly use that to support the modders/developers I like to that they can make more groovy stuff.

 

1 hour ago, NoXion said:

I'd still not be at all happy with the normalisation of highly intrusive software to deal with ultimately trivial shit. And that would still be the case even if there was a significant fraction of the DE playerbase on multiplayer. As it is I'm hoping that the combination of deceptive practices, player reaction and low multiplayer numbers means that this whole fiasco acts as an impediment to this creeping creepiness that video game publishers think is acceptable to inflict on their victims paying customers.

 

Seconding this, and because it's part of the same product, that essentially translates to also indirectly supporting these destructive practices.

 

Not on my watch.

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The problem I have with paid mods is that it seems publishers have a distinct tendency to look at them as replacing, rather than supplementing, the free mods made by the community. As if the selling point was just in being able to pay for them, rather than their sale signifying good quality, having been properly checked for malicious code, official endorsement, or something like that.

 

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13 minutes ago, seed said:

Seconding this, and because it's part of the same product, that essentially translates to also indirectly supporting these destructive practices.

 

Not on my watch.


That's part of what tears me up about this. Even if Zenimax/Bethesda are forced to take a step or two back over this, their intent and overall direction of travel is clear, and far too many people in the various gaming communities are willing to make excuses for publishers pulling this kind of shit.

For example, one dude on Reddit (yes, yes, "Reddit sux", but he was actually one of the minority) seems to think that the fact that nothing really bad has happened yet, is sufficient evidence to say that fears like mine are ungrounded. My objection to that is not something that I can easily put into words, but one way I can think of putting it is, why wait until disaster strikes to do something? Isn't it better to fix things before they go wrong? Relying on past performance like that is fine, right up until the point that it isn't.

It's really an astonishing attitude to have, especially when you consider all the fuss that's been made in recent years over government cyber-snooping, as well as the explosive growth in organised criminal activity on the internet. Why go to all the hassle of robbing a bank when you can sit in front of a computer and literally pull money off the internet?

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2 hours ago, Vic Vos said:

I wonder now - do user wads on /idgames belong to Bethesda? They had to directly contact wad authors for inclusion in the new ports, sooo...?
The question I'm trying to ask here - can Bethesda one day take the Samson option and just pull the plug on everything, somehow revoke the GPL license on Doom Engine code? We're talking about a potential massive goldmine for Bethesda here in terms of paid mods.

According to current laws, if you create something, your authorship cannot be revoked, ever. However, someone else can gain automatic rights to use it. This is most common if you're an employee - whatever you create automatically becomes your employer's property. It's also the case with anti-social networks like Facebook - if you have an account, they automatically gain VERY broad rights to whatever you post.

 

But all of this doesn't concern user WADs. Bethesda doesn't own them, because they don't own or run /idgames. And unlike Facebook, creators of original Doom games explicitly allowed modding them, with no strings attached. Also, if Bethesda wanted to include an user WAD into some map-pack or re-release, they would need written consent from the mod's author. As for GPL, the license explicitly states it cannot be revoked:

 

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19827448

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17 minutes ago, Caleb13 said:

As for GPL, the license explicitly states it cannot be revoked:

 

 

That goes for any license. You can relicense your own work if the need arises, but once released, if others have your source from before the change, they can still use it under those terms.

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25 minutes ago, Ramiel said:
  • Performance issues in Update 1 and DAC are "not related.", suspected to be caused by "VRAM allocation"

I don't quite believe this, for a variety of reasons, you don't want to bad mouth any of your third party developers, I read numerous people complaining of CPU spikes, which could happen if you were OOM on your GPU and it had to page memory between VRAM and main ram, but that manifests itself differently then the videos I've seen. That's pure speculation though, and my own personal belief. 

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8 minutes ago, icecoldduke said:

I don't quite believe this, for a variety of reasons, you don't want to bad mouth any of your third party developers, I read numerous people complaining of CPU spikes, which could happen if you were OOM on your GPU and it had to page memory between VRAM and main ram, but that manifests itself differently then the videos I've seen. That's pure speculation though, and my own personal belief. 

Marty Stratton isn't known to lie (nor allowed to in this context), so if he said it, it's true. Plus "I heard from some people" and anecdotal CPU activity is about the weakest supporting evidence ever presented. 

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Just now, Edward850 said:

Marty Stratton isn't known to lie, so if he said it, it's true.

I'm sure he's a great guy, and even if he did stretch the truth here, it wouldn't be on him, that would have been a business decision, and I wouldn't think any less of him either way. But its highly suspect that new hitching comes in a patch that introduces a new highly invansive anti cheat system. 

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