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Quasar

Kernel-mode anticheat is a huge nope

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Why why why!!!!

 

Why did they have to do this to what is otherwise a fantastic game?

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Browsing the "Blood decals and disappearing bodies" thread made me want to build a decent pc to double-dip on Eternal but now i don't know...

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At the end of the day, the best way to solve the problem is to come with proofs, such as actual metrics that this driver harms performance or (more seriously) of any ways to trigger crashes or security exploits. The latter, if not patched, will flag the game as insecure for the world to know. 

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What else do I expect? Looks like Bethesda pretty much poisoned the Doom franchise.

 

Oh, and wait until Valve locks down the reviews section of Doom Eternal and removes/hides the negative reviews, speaking of the company that released HL2, sigh...

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3 minutes ago, printz said:

actual metrics that this driver harms performance or (more seriously) of any ways to trigger crashes or security exploits. The latter, if not patched, will flag the game as insecure for the world to know. 

 

While the former is A-OK if one simply gets a faster PC, amirite or amirite?

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Posted (edited)
On 5/15/2020 at 1:10 PM, Cacodemon345 said:

 

Oh, and wait until Valve locks down the reviews section of Doom Eternal and removes/hides the negative reviews, speaking of the company that released HL2, sigh...

Valve themselves have literally never done that. There were a few community mods that were doing it during the paid mods debacle but they got demoted the moment it became known.

Edited by Rampy470

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Can't help but think that if this was their plan from the start, then the DRM-free .exe present in the initial Bethesda release may very well have been included by a disgruntled employee after all.

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10 minutes ago, Maes said:

 

While the former is A-OK if one simply gets a faster PC, amirite or amirite?

Yeah, those can be accepted as costs. But I'm afraid not even crashes or lockups will get patched, because it's just a game. And games aren't expensive enough to warrant support. The only more serious issue would be insecurity, but even that can be dismissed, because serious people don't (and often can't) install games 🙁

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, printz said:

Yeah, those can be accepted as costs.

 

Hmm....for a game that's pretty much at the tech pinnacle for its age, so no CPU horsepower to waste, and undoubtedly many people invested in a new gaming PC because of it? Way to give them a big fat middle finger, and not because there has been some amazing improvement in content or graphics quality since the last version, but just because of a broken "anticheat" feature. Extra butthurt points if you intended to play single-player only to begin with....

 

Let's face it, some things in life, including this so-called anti-cheat patch, are like male-pattern baldness. If the latter was for sale, nobody would buy it.

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Posted (edited)

I don't mean to be the Devil's advocate here, but... does the Denuvo anti-cheat actually do anything? I tried playing single-player with Fling cheat engine and it worked normally. Or it just reports suspicious players and I will get ban-hammer from human mods? (Not that I'm too afraid about that, I don't like the game very much anyway and I'm not even sure if I'll ever play through the campaing again.) Well, I'll let y'all know if anything "bad" happens.

 

Anyway, it seems the first real Denuvo casualty are unofficial mods that need hacked executables:

 

 

Edit: I don't know why is the Reddit link only partially visible, here it is again.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Graf Zahl said:

Because that's what bean counters do. They care about the bottom line, not the satisfaction of their user base. And as long as the majority of gamer zombies doesn't care and/or some legislation outright declares this to be computer sabotage they won't stop.

 

You know, this could all have been stopped, had people boycotted Half Life 2 for its online DRM scheme but all I heard back then was "come on, it's not evil". Well, it *IS* evil and now modern gamers have to live with it and all the nasty consequences of no longer being in control of their software.

 

I don't think the two are comparable. I mean sure, Steam etc. are now a form of DRM too, but they don't install automatically on your system with an update and do not potentially wreak havok, they're just simple clients with goods locked behind accounts, not crapware that essentially sabotages your machine via ring-0 levels of access.

 

And Steam is cool :(. I very much doubt people were going to anticipate something like this some 15yrs later, and software like DAT/DAC could simply not require such a client to begin with, look at the crap of the past: SecuROM, Punkbuster, Star something, and more. I'm really not seeing how digital distribution services are comparable with this shit.

 

1 hour ago, ReaperAA said:

Why why why!!!!

 

Why did they have to do this to what is otherwise a fantastic game?

 

This is indeed the best question right now. Just, why in the first place?? It's mind-boggling.

 

Why DE out of all games? I would have expected this to get into something like F76, but not a game that received universal praise, was loved by fans, was successful and sold like hot cakes? It just makes NO SENSE. Not even from an anti-cheating perspective since Eternal is not a MP-focused competitive shooter, it's a singleplayer-focused one.

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I don’t see them removing it anytime soon for sure. Even if you don’t play battle mode, once invasion mode gets added it’ll probably be needed so cheaters aren’t ruining campaigns.

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Welp, now the game is getting review-bombed as a result of this Denuvo fuckery. 
 

yippie skippy

 

 

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How predictable. It's digital protest time lads, gotta love that chart, that's some massive bombing, wow.

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15 minutes ago, Man of Doom said:

Welp, now the game is getting review-bombed as a result of this Denuvo fuckery. 
 

yippie skippy

 

 

 

They deserve it, no question.

And for all those people saying "prove that it's harmful", one word: Installing anything with kernel privileges is like opening the door and throwing away the key - it's an open invitation for hackers trying to look out for flaws in this softwarw and then break into affected systems. No decent software company would ever require such a thing - but of course the times where major game developers have been 'decent' are long, long gone.

 

Seriously, it's time that Microsoft is giving clearer warnings what an installer asking for elevated privileges is intending to do. All this 'security' is worthless if it can be disabled with one click and no chance for fine grained control.

 

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Can the Windows kernel drivers be modified from user space though? If not, can bugs in those drivers be exploited from user space? Those are the questions I am looking for answers to.

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4 minutes ago, Cacodemon345 said:

Can the Windows kernel drivers be modified from user space though? If not, can bugs in those drivers be exploited from user space? Those are the questions I am looking for answers to.

 

Practically any vulnerability can be exploited in one way or another, so I suspect that the answer is yes, and something with maximum privileges can do enormous damage.

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To be honest, on one hand, I am sad to see Doom Eternal getting review bombed. But on the other hand, I also want more and more people to review bomb it in hopes that Id/Bethesda revert this change.

 

(Why does this happen that whenever I am extra excited about a game, some "controversy" happens which results in game getting review bombed or something like that *cough* Ion Fury *cough*)

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1 minute ago, ReaperAA said:

(Why does this happen that whenever I am extra excited about a game, some "controversy" happens which results in game getting review bombed or something like that *cough* Ion Fury *cough*)

 

Because the industry's getting less privacy conscious and less consumer friendly. Though to be fair, the Ion Fury debacle was different.

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Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, ReaperAA said:

To be honest, on one hand, I am sad to see Doom Eternal getting review bombed. But on the other hand, I also want more and more people to review bomb it in hopes that Id/Bethesda revert this change.

 

(Why does this happen that whenever I am extra excited about a game, some "controversy" happens which results in game getting review bombed or something like that *cough* Ion Fury *cough*)

 

Ya same, but a message needs to be send somehow, especially now when concerns are very serious. Assholes don't understand anything until you punch them in the face, so we shall see what they do after everyone stops playing the (awesome) game.

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Could someone explain this part:

Quote

It presents an EXTREME security risk as if hackers discover and utilize exploits in the software they can gain complete control of your machine.

I don't know enough to understand how this is possible. How do you make that jump from anti cheat software to controlling a machine through it?

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Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, Smouths said:

Though to be fair, the Ion Fury debacle was different.

 

Yes I know. I was cursing my luck about how it is almost always the games I am super hyped about that end up in some sort of controversy. That is all.

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4 minutes ago, Nevander said:

Could someone explain this part:

I don't know enough to understand how this is possible. How do you make that jump from anti cheat software to controlling a machine through it?


If software is installed that has kernel access, then your computer is only as secure as that software is, because that software basically has a bunch of privileges to change or read things that most programs never ask for. If that software is attacked by malicious parties and its security is found wanting, your machine becomes compromised.

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9 minutes ago, Nevander said:

I don't know enough to understand how this is possible. How do you make that jump from anti cheat software to controlling a machine through it?

 

It doesn't matter what kind of software it is, to begin with.

 

By exploiting vulnerabilities in the software, especially one that has such deep access to the system, if one of those is found, it presents a perfect opportunity for remote code execution (executing malicious code on the user's machine). You're basically getting hijacked.

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Sounds like I was right to wait and see how this could potentially fuck up.

 

Then again, I haven't even played Doom 2016 yet, though I do own it.

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Posted (edited)

I played two hours last night, right after installing the update. Battlemode was horrible, very laggy all the time and slayers dropping out when playing as a demon and being unable to connect for long periods of time (5-10min of waiting) when trying to play as the Slayer. I got bored after a few matches, and decimated by some VERY talented demon players, for that I'm grateful that the game seems to have started to match the skill levels of players, but the lag was very, very horrible.

I decided to go and play the campaign a bit after those BM matches, and at first I thought I was just tired bcs my aim felt off and the game felt different. Then the terrible BM lagginess suddenly continued in the campaign so it became clear that the update had caused the problems. 

I also find it deeply questionable to give kernel access to the software for all the forementioned reasons and I'm about to remove the program and the game until the thing resolves somehow. It breaks my heart because I really, really like playing Doom Eternal, however.

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