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SLON

Doom II Updated

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Well, where do you start? The idea of "rethinking" the Doom was with me for a long time.
I want to say that I saw a thousand (or so) Doom 2 remakes, but they were all not what I wanted. They either did not leave anything from the original maps in fact, or they were a jumble of sometimes meaningless "improvements for the sake of improvements" without improving the very atmosphere of the maps.
So in the end it came about. The idea is only to improve what is already available, so do not expect something fundamentally new. All maps will be exactly the same, with (practically) the same geometry and gameplay. The whole idea is only to bring to the essence their very atmosphere.

Screenshots:
 

Spoiler

Screenshot_Doom_20200514_181515.png.7c9e2e40a9291cbc0b9493cd24e27cbd.pngScreenshot_Doom_20200514_181525.png.48b55732a12564964ad9888b9c0a2802.pngScreenshot_Doom_20200514_181556.png.3450e1aabe515a8d0c57202c7d5839dd.pngScreenshot_Doom_20200514_181618.png.7a432e91b56b02816c737bd5f0098943.pngScreenshot_Doom_20200514_181643.png.85aee8d57593662319ff648f6f24adfe.pngScreenshot_Doom_20200514_181656.png.e710fcc4434488599e6ce2452c6e0b1a.pngScreenshot_Doom_20200514_181726.png.032d6748048aa8f4918723a75357b06f.pngScreenshot_Doom_20200514_181742.png.8d18367a54bbc1dab45c4e1ba5dbcd88.pngScreenshot_Doom_20200514_181801.png.269570e0b1f580c661a85d107d446c48.pngScreenshot_Doom_20200514_181833.png.b1feb5c29a0810a7251fd67a727db31b.pngScreenshot_Doom_20200514_181849.png.f8843025fd5162c0d1c8aef2f77c8f9a.pngScreenshot_Doom_20200514_181907.png.6e22292889adf68805c6d5e2254553f3.png


Some of the ideas came from alphas of Doom and Doom 2. Almost all new textures are drawn by me, based on unused content.
Also included are some minor fixes, like missing/crooked textures.

Of the other improvements planned: new monsters (do not worry, there will not be many at all, and they will be from canonical ideas, i.e. you will not see 30 types of imps here), new MIDI music in order to remove repeating tracks (again, all of them will come from the corresponding groups like Accept, Black Sabbath, Judas Priest, Metallica, etc., and yes, they are chosen according to the atmosphere).So far, only a WIP, as there are things necessary for improvements.

_______________________________________________________

Download Demo


 

Since no one needs this nonsense, this will soon be erased.

Edited by SLON

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Spoiler

https://imgur.com/x7GY9IP
https://imgur.com/cOtmBmx
https://imgur.com/6rEiwtS
https://imgur.com/SQBkr0F

Some improvements to secret levels.
In fact, this is what, I am sure, should have been done (since all Doom decorations look like placeholders there), but it wasn't done because of the rush dev, like a bunch of other things. I decided not to transfer the Wolf decorations, but to go as far as possible with the Doom decorations and sectors.

Edited by SLON

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Interesting idea, unique among the legions of "overhaul" and "reimagining" projects

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The screenshots made this look like a reimagining of the original maps, but now that I have my hands on the demo I'm not sure about the legality of this project. Surely just lightly retexturing the IWAD maps and redistributing them can't be ok.

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40 minutes ago, LoneAlpha2401 said:

The screenshots made this look like a reimagining of the original maps, but now that I have my hands on the demo I'm not sure about the legality of this project. Surely just lightly retexturing the IWAD maps and redistributing them can't be ok.

It is sorta fishy so i'm curious about this too.

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I ask the moderators to close this topic, and, ideally, delete it. I really do not want to distract people with some stupid trash.

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Oh fuck em, if you're passionate about this sort of a project, go for it. To be honest like half of all wads dip into copyrighted sources (sounds, textures, midis, sprites from other games/movies) but for some reason map geometry is where people freak out. As long as you host the files not on the /idgames/ archives, I don't see who could have a legitimate gripe with you other than legal council for bethesda (spoiler: they won't care)

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1 hour ago, SLON said:

I ask the moderators to close this topic, and, ideally, delete it. I really do not want to distract people with some stupid trash.

This is not stupid, trash, in fact, what you made was interesting, the problem is that you can't simply alter the original maps because thats ilegal.
What you could do to avoid this is recreate the maps yourself a similar as you remember them, this is, that you draw the map yourself and not usign the original source material at all, only just as a reference and nothing more.
From what i see, you made something interesting that really adds to the atmosphere of Doom 2, something the original really lacked, so i encourage you to go on with this.
And you don't distract people. I ensure you that they don't want to be offensive, its just that forum message is a difficult way for people to relate properly.

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40 minutes ago, P41R47 said:

This is not stupid, trash, in fact, what you made was interesting, the problem is that you can't simply alter the original maps because thats ilegal.
What you could do to avoid this is recreate the maps yourself a similar as you remember them, this is, that you draw the map yourself and not usign the original source material at all, only just as a reference and nothing more.

 

If I remember correctly the WAD called DoomOne done exact this. 

 

 

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1 minute ago, arnaldocsf said:

 

If I remember correctly the WAD called DoomOne done exact this. 

 

 

not exactly, DoomOne united all maps. The end of one is connected by a little intersection to the entrace of the following.
But yes, as you say, the maker of DoomOne copy all the maps from the original source, modified them to properly connect them, and nothing more, thus being ilegal.

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2 minutes ago, P41R47 said:

not exactly, DoomOne united all maps. The end of one is connected by a little intersection to the entrace of the following.
But yes, as you say, the maker of DoomOne copy all the maps from the original source, modified them to properly connect them, and nothing more, thus being ilegal.

 

Oh, I think that the author have redone all the original maps... now, this is bad. 

 

Edit: So If I understand right, redo the maps all by yourself it's OK, but copying then not?  

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Anything being a copy paste of an already made map is a no no. Practically piracy or copy infringement.

 

If you followed the map as a guide but remade everything by scratch and no copy paste, you should be good. The iwad maps are a guide, means of inspiration, not to be carbon copied and said it is your own.

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22 minutes ago, arnaldocsf said:

 

Oh, I think that the author have redone all the original maps... now, this is bad. 

 

Edit: So If I understand right, redo the maps all by yourself it's OK, but copying then not?  

Yes, that right. But for being more clear, if the linedef you draw are of the same size and recreates the same as the original soo faithfully that there almost no difference with the original, that also is ilegal.
You can recreate the original maps your way. Not the same way as they are.

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if you reside in the states and if you edit iwad maps and if id issues a cease & desist and if you ignore/refuse it and if they can prove damages (e.g. you were selling the refurbished maps lol) then there could be an issue between SLON and id, but it wouldnt involve any of you guys.

 

are you telling me you all get butthurt about copyright law when someone uses the Beverley Hills Cop midi, or when people greyscale a quake texture then include it in the pwad?

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People release “minor touch-up” mods for other games all the time. Romhacking.net has a million and one patches just like this for old games, minor improvements to subtle layout and texturing errors that were never fixed due to tight deadlines.

 

Just wait til the “letter of the law” copyright alarmists find out about the 25 year old DWANGO series! Modified versions of the precious iwad maps converted for Deathmatch! Oh lawdy, just the thought has me coming down with the vapors!!

 

...Ignore the alarmists, and simply don’t upload it to idgames. There are numerous wad hosting sites that will host any such wads where the intent is clearly not malicious. If someone really wants to use this in combination with FreeDoom to play a “pirated Doom 2” rather than visiting one of the 99999999 sites illegally hosting Doom2.wad for easy download, I have to question their sanity.

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Well, looks like I caused quite a stir... I was just throwing in my own two cents, didn't mean to upset anyone.

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I apologize, I didn't mean to be so sassy. I've seen similar projects to this get called "ZOMG ILLEGAL" one too many times I think and it just triggered the douche button. Sorry for that.

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aww boomer i missed this, the textures looked fine and interesting, would you share them someday?

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6 hours ago, P41R47 said:

This is not stupid, trash, in fact, what you made was interesting, the problem is that you can't simply alter the original maps because thats ilegal.

 

A significant number of famous wads use resources, sometimes unaltered, ripped from all over the place (e.g. Alien Vendetta has textures from Heretic and Final Doom, Lunatic has textures from Duke Nukem 3D, the Scythe series has music from something like a dozen different games), and I'm not sure how this is any different?

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2 hours ago, NiGHTMARE said:

 

A significant number of famous wads use resources, sometimes unaltered, ripped from all over the place (e.g. Alien Vendetta has textures from Heretic and Final Doom, Lunatic has textures from Duke Nukem 3D, the Scythe series has music from something like a dozen different games), and I'm not sure how this is any different?

Its kinda tricky, but this is what i understand.

When somebody makes a was wich uses custom resources, thats not bad because you need the Doom iwads to play them. Without the iwads you simply can't play them. You paid for the iwads, so there is nothing ilegal.

 

For the maps references, well its plain steal when you see that the referenced part is size by size, line by line the same from the original.

But if the map just uses a similar pattern clearly recognizable by anyone, thats is a reference, a nod, not stealing, and surely the drawed lines of the maps are just reminecent, not exactly the same as the source material.

 

Its like when you see a painting similar to other, its not plagiarism because somebody took the time to recreate the painting by itself. Its not the original and careful looking will reveal that. Also nobody stop you from sell this painting as you aknowledge that it is a replica.

 

Other thing is that somebody is selling a replica of a famous painting and claims that is the original when its not.

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1 hour ago, P41R47 said:

Its kinda tricky, but this is what i understand.

When somebody makes a was wich uses custom resources, thats not bad because you need the Doom iwads to play them. Without the iwads you simply can't play them. You paid for the iwads, so there is nothing ilegal.

 

If you started with a blank iwad, and then wanted to reverse engineer the original game starting with only pirated map data, you wouldn't get anywhere. If you have no sound data, the engine will still run with -nosound, but if you have no sprite or texture data the game will be in a nonplayable state (crash). So if the sprites and textures are just as necessary as the maps in terms of engine functionality, why is it ok for every megawad to recolor the statusbar numbers? Are you going to write a letter to the authors of SmoothDoom or the Minor Sprite Fixing project? Spoiler alert, gothictx has quake textures in it. TeamTNT's own Eternal Doom has hexen textures and the /idgames/ archive maintainer was a project lead on that. Hell Revealed ripped all the midis from RoTT. Also you need to tell Bobby Prince off, that bastard stole compositions from Alice in Chains and Slayer and some sort of freaky friday robot movie!

 

Yeah I'm salty, we had a newcomer actually working on something interesting and got chased off because of an arbitrary idgames policy (which he wasnt even using). Yes it's a sort of trope to overhaul the doom maps, but a "Minor Map Adjustments" project hasnt been attempted yet to my knowledge so I was looking forward to his progress.

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I know you are a veteran here, @Vorpal, youn surely know better than i, so i can only state what seems clear to my knowledge. But i might be wrong as it something i come up while lurking around, reading from admins and such.

Not all, but most of the examples you named are somewhat modified. Recoloring the numbers means someone take the time to do that, even if now is much easier with slade, for example. Same with retres.wad and Eternal Doom, the assets had to be adapted to Doom palete. Music in Kama Sutra is indeed ripped from rott and duke3d mostly, but all this means nothing again if one doesn't have doom or freedoom iwads to play or use theme.

 

Again i'm not the one who knows everything about this, but i think that there is a legal loophole about the music on pwads. Id owns the .mus file know as D_RUNNIN that is xxxx checksum so as long as you use a file that had a different checksum, you can move somewhat freely.

 

About map geometry not allowed, as @Doomkid said, there is work around for that. Doom iwad is there to claim for whoever wanted it.

 

I'm not arguin with you, Vorpal. I just answered some questions that were brought up. And as everybody here, i might be wrong.

I realy liked what the OP was doing, its a shame that he give up soo easily.

But well, how would you feel if you receive a C&D?

Thats not funny!

 

Idgames just cover from that, how? I don't know but seem to be a way to get away using copyrighted assets from other games.

 

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6 minutes ago, P41R47 said:

Not all, but most of the examples you named are somewhat modified. 

 

This is quite an arbitrary criteria you set, and I don't know why you bring it up because OP's project more than "somewhat modified" the maps. I mean a texture recolor can just be algorithmically reverse engineered in a few seconds in Paint, you seem to be ok with this but not ok with altered maps which would require immense manual effort to reverse engineer back to the iwad original.

 

18 minutes ago, P41R47 said:

Again i'm not the one who knows everything about this, but i think that there is a legal loophole about the music on pwads. Id owns the .mus file know as D_RUNNIN that is xxxx checksum so as long as you use a file that had a different checksum, you can move somewhat freely.

 

No the checksum isnt a factor in a copyright dispute, the actual content data or art or text is. If I extend your reasoning, I can change one letter, and be the proud publisher of the Lard of the Rings.

 

29 minutes ago, P41R47 said:

But well, how would you feel if you receive a C&D?

 

I would probably comply with the C&D and remove any offending content, or I could argue noncommercial fair use if I wanted to risk it for the biscuit

 

cases I can think of where copyright infringement may apply:

1. damaged image/brand

If I handdraw Aunt Jemima syrup bottle sprites with horrifying gory death animations, and give them sound effects excerpted from nazi propaganda speeches, I might skip the cease & desist process altogether and find myself in court right quick

 

2. impacted sales 

I was selling my modified-from-original content, both profiting from the infringement and competing with sales of the original.

 

3. Third party stewardship

while not a law, someone ELSE who is going to distribute mymap01.wad is going to need to devote some amount of hardware and money to do so, and they don't want to devote any amount of time or money or risk associated with legal battles, and therefore enforce their own policies of what can or can't be on their distribution network. In our case that would be the file host and possibly the forum operator/moderators who can do what they want when they want, but we aren't them.

 

So what's the purpose of pointing the copyright finger around, if you aren't the author, the copyright holder, or the distributor? I'm guessing the arms folded, angry eyebrow stance of people in this thread is rooted in the concept of plagiarism being an immoral act, but OP is quite clear about the source so plagiarism isnt applicable here. Unless y'all are suggesting we adopt (or already have adopted?) a community moral position of [editing iwad sound and graphics is ok, but editing iwad maps is not ok and we agree to blacklist and shame anyone who does so and make them think the FBI is going to arrest them on behalf of John Carmack]

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5 minutes ago, Vorpal said:

 

This is quite an arbitrary criteria you set, and I don't know why you bring it up because OP's project more than "somewhat modified" the maps. I mean a texture recolor can just be algorithmically reverse engineered in a few seconds in Paint, you seem to be ok with this but not ok with altered maps which would require immense manual effort to reverse engineer back to the iwad original.

 

 

No the checksum isnt a factor in a copyright dispute, the actual content data or art or text is. If I extend your reasoning, I can change one letter, and be the proud publisher of the Lard of the Rings.

 

 

I would probably comply with the C&D and remove any offending content, or I could argue noncommercial fair use if I wanted to risk it for the biscuit

 

cases I can think of where copyright infringement may apply:

1. damaged image/brand

If I handdraw Aunt Jemima syrup bottle sprites with horrifying gory death animations, and give them sound effects excerpted from nazi propaganda speeches, I might skip the cease & desist process altogether and find myself in court right quick

 

2. impacted sales 

I was selling my modified-from-original content, both profiting from the infringement and competing with sales of the original.

 

3. Third party stewardship

while not a law, someone ELSE who is going to distribute mymap01.wad is going to need to devote some amount of hardware and money to do so, and they don't want to devote any amount of time or money or risk associated with legal battles, and therefore enforce their own policies of what can or can't be on their distribution network. In our case that would be the file host and possibly the forum operator/moderators who can do what they want when they want, but we aren't them.

 

So what's the purpose of pointing the copyright finger around, if you aren't the author, the copyright holder, or the distributor? I'm guessing the arms folded, angry eyebrow stance of people in this thread is rooted in the concept of plagiarism being an immoral act, but OP is quite clear about the source so plagiarism isnt applicable here. Unless y'all are suggesting we adopt (or already have adopted?) a community moral position of [editing iwad sound and graphics is ok, but editing iwad maps is not ok and we agree to blacklist and shame anyone who does so and make them think the FBI is going to arrest them on behalf of John Carmack]

Oh no, please. You missundertand me. I'm not defending anything. I just pointed the cases where assets were modified and might be seen as legal somewhat.

And its not my reasoning, i just pointed what i see comes as a problem about map geometries.

 

Thats the moral bar here. I didn't make it, if it is for me, anyone is free of doing whatever they want.

I'm with you in that aspect.

 

But i not set the rules, and here that are the rules it seem.

Like it or not.

I can't do anything about that.

And as you show, you know a lot about the legal things and and how they work.

But thats not the case with everybody. And if the OP decided to take his work back, sustained on ignorance of legal matter, is his/her choice.

 

Also, i would love to read a book named The Lard of the Ring.

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Well now I just feel awful knowing that I caused this mess, and discouraged a newcomer from modding.

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