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LucidLocomotive

a most unusual occurrence on this very day over at the doomwiki

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31 minutes ago, Quasar said:

 

I also got extremely frustrated with people copypasting text from the in-game codex, which is not allowed due to copyright.

Would it be possible to use academic anti-plagiarism tools, with the entire id Software game text corpus, to prevent that?

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On 5/25/2020 at 3:48 PM, Quasar said:

I also got extremely frustrated with people copypasting text from the in-game codex, which is not allowed due to copyright.

How much needs to be copy-pasted for it to fall outside "fair use"? Surely some must be OK, otherwise every screenshot can also be considered a copyright violation. Do you think anyone actually cares? Anyone ever approached the wiki admins about this?

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9 minutes ago, dr_st said:

How much needs to be copy-pasted for it to fall outside "fair use"? Surely some must be OK, otherwise every screenshot can also be considered a copyright violation. Do you think anyone actually cares? Anyone ever approached the wiki admins about this?

To avoid the screenshot issue, i snap my own shots whenever possible and fit to common resolutions as much as possible. That way i can just distribute it cleanly (And it also compiles with the text that the user himself took that picture).

 

Other fair use cases could be screenshots from the game you can't replicate. Since the creator took those screenshots himself, one could reasonably use fair use and re-use these.

 

So far i know nobody has complained from the latter and obviously nobody will for the former. The only edge cases could be screenshots that are deliberately copyrighted, magazine scans, or other restrictive licenses.

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No armchair lawyering please. I and others on the wiki have spent literal years coming to an understanding of the limits of fair use. I don't need any advice in this regard.

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@Quasar

I don't suppose you need any advice, but it would be nice if you shared some of your accumulated knowledge with members of the community. If potential contributors know more, their edits may be more in line with what you expect, leading to fewer frustrations of the kind you mentioned above.

 

Maybe this information is already summarized somewhere, and you don't have to repeat it.

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Well, in any case, the community must have left the Wikia (now Fandom) space also because of the increasing ad spam. It was unbearable, especially after visiting clean wikis like the ZDoom wiki or Wikipedia.

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2 minutes ago, printz said:

Well, in any case, the community must have left the Wikia (now Fandom) space also because of the increasing ad spam. It was unbearable, especially after visiting clean wikis like the ZDoom wiki or Wikipedia.

 

It isn't just that it's ad infested, I think the site isn't well optimized or well written either. I've had wikia crash or freeze my browsers on multiple mobile devices many times. It's why I never open that site anymore, get someone competent to fix it first...

 

But since ad revenue is more important... who cares for these things. Besides, it's definitely not our lost :p.

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6 hours ago, fraggle said:

The Doom Wiki started life on Fandom and after several years the community of editors who created it decided to leave it and become an independent site. Fandom don't let you move your site because they make money off the ads on their pages, so the old site remains, confuses people and competes with the real wiki in search results.

 

That's why we all hate Fandom so much. It's not just because "the pages have lots of ads and that's annoying". Fandom disrespects our community and fucks us all over for profit. If you care about this wonderful Doom community we're all part of, please always use the real Wiki that's community-owned and maintained, and tell all your friends to never give Fandom money by visiting their site.

but what if I need to know where the secrets all are in a Doom 64 level? just use classicdoom.org and look at the maps? 

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1 minute ago, Eris Falling said:

Why not just try figuring the secrets out for yourself?

No reason I can’t. Don’t you think a wiki should have this information though? people have differing playstyles

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27 minutes ago, LucidLocomotive said:

No reason I can’t. Don’t you think a wiki should have this information though? people have differing playstyles

There are plenty of wads that doesn't have documentation at all.
Not that i am complaining, but a workaround for that some of here use when we want to find our way around maps is opening the builder, loading the map and check things out.
Unfortunately, in your case, that you want to know every secret of Doom 64, i think thats not possible with the actual Doombuilders.
So i recommend you, instead of the wikia, check some gamefaqs, there are some really detailed and really well explained wlakthoughts there. Also for Doom 64, thats what i did back then when i first played Doom64 Ex.
For the lost levels, well, you have time to play around with Doom 64 normal maps, maybe when you end the campaing, there is a dedicated page on the official Doomwiki.

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27 minutes ago, P41R47 said:

There are plenty of wads that doesn't have documentation at all.
Not that i am complaining, but a workaround for that some of here use when we want to find our way around maps is opening the builder, loading the map and check things out.
Unfortunately, in your case, that you want to know every secret of Doom 64, i think thats not possible with the actual Doombuilders.
So i recommend you, instead of the wikia, check some gamefaqs, there are some really detailed and really well explained wlakthoughts there. Also for Doom 64, thats what i did back then when i first played Doom64 Ex.
For the lost levels, well, you have time to play around with Doom 64 normal maps, maybe when you end the campaing, there is a dedicated page on the official Doomwiki.

okay thanks I think I will just use ClassicDOOM.com. have you ever used that site? it’s really good. and also yeah you are right about a lot of wads being empty, the only thing is that Doom 64 is an official, canon game in the main series, that’s been out since 97, so it just surprises me that its so empty 

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2 minutes ago, LucidLocomotive said:

okay thanks I think I will just use ClassicDOOM.com. have you ever used that site? it’s really good. and also yeah you are right about a lot of wads being empty, the only thing is that Doom 64 is an official, canon game in the main series, that’s been out since 97, so it just surprises me that its so empty 

Oh i don't use much guides except for when i'm really stuck. And i just use them to discover that, sometimes, i'm a complete retard for not thinking something soo obvious jajaja.
I'm gonna check if there is something interesting.

Hope you can enjoy your play ;)

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44 minutes ago, P41R47 said:

There are plenty of wads that doesn't have documentation at all.
Not that i am complaining

 

I think it's a compliment to the rest of the community -- a lot of good mapsets still come out every year! If the wiki were all caught up, that would imply overall activity was stagnant. :(

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33 minutes ago, LucidLocomotive said:

Doom 64 is an official, canon game in the main series

For many years the game was pretty obscure (it wasn't until EX that the game starts to gain a cult following. Yes there have been attempts before, Absolution being a prominent example, but EX is really the thing that make the game significant) and even now many still disregard the game's canonicity due to it being made by not-id.

Again, you are still just a nobody on a wiki. If you want to help adding secrets, start by contributing small things first.

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10 minutes ago, Xeriphas1994 said:

 

I think it's a compliment to the rest of the community -- a lot of good mapsets still come out every year! If the wiki were all caught up, that would imply overall activity was stagnant. :(

True, indeed. But yes, just for clarify, i wasn't complaining. I tried to help with the wiki but the amount of information to check, and don't knowing where to find it, made me retreat from my intentions. Maybe i just had to try harder.
But now that i'm here, somebody know who i have to talk, or what i have to do to review a wad that doesn't appeard in the downlads (beta)? 
Obviously, in legacy it is not possible to review wads.

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Some (a lot) of the time had to be spent to create the other 10,129 some odd articles on the wiki. Whatever is a priority to one person isn't necessarily to anyone else. There's a bad situation with Doom 64 maps - the tooling we have doesn't support them. Xymph is not currently able to auto generate thing tables for them, for example, because his libraries don't have Doom 64 map format support.

 

Maybe somebody with some python knowledge should volunteer to take care of that problem first.

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6 minutes ago, Quasar said:

Some (a lot) of the time had to be spent to create the other 10,129 some odd articles on the wiki. Whatever is a priority to one person isn't necessarily to anyone else. There's a bad situation with Doom 64 maps - the tooling we have doesn't support them. Xymph is not currently able to auto generate thing tables for them, for example, because his libraries don't have Doom 64 map format support.

 

Maybe somebody with some python knowledge should volunteer to take care of that problem first.

It'd definitely be possible, though I don't know how accurate the D64EX maps are compared to the commercial Doom 64 release. I don't see any reason why Things and whatnot would be different between the maps though, which is what those tables would need. And SLADE can certainly open up the "new" DOOM64.WAD file, so it doesn't look like much has changed in that sense. (Though it's got hash differences, so there's definitely changes.)

 

At that point it'd just be down to looking in EX's source for the necessary map format info, implementing that into Xymph's tools, and having it parse DOOM64.WAD to generate the info to slap into the wiki.

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3 hours ago, Quasar said:

Xymph is not currently able to auto generate thing tables for them, for example, because his libraries don't have Doom 64 map format support.

 

A few hours ago I started to type out a response to Xymph, asking about this, but then it dawned on me, "hey, I'm a programmer"... so I may have accidentally grabbed DMMPST's source and started adding Doom64 support for it. :P

 

So far I've got it reading in the map format and outputting map & thing statistics (including Doom64's new things, Unmaker & all), and I'll probably be at the point where I can export all the relevant wiki markup once I add support for D64's secret sector flag (probably in a day or two; I'm getting sleepy :P ).

 

There's still a bit more tinkering I'll need to do before my DMMPST "fork" (or update, if Xymph is up for adopting it) is ready for general use, since the Doom64 PC IWAD stores maps as wads-within-a-wad and I'll need to sneak in support for that at some point, but the goal is to produce something that'll be usable for generating wiki page skeletons for Doom64 pwads, should that ever become a thing. :P

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4 minutes ago, Xaser said:

 

A few hours ago I started to type out a response to Xymph, asking about this, but then it dawned on me, "hey, I'm a programmer"... so I may have accidentally grabbed DMMPST's source and started adding Doom64 support for it. :P

 

So far I've got it reading in the map format and outputting map & thing statistics (including Doom64's new things, Unmaker & all), and I'll probably be at the point where I can export all the relevant wiki markup once I add support for D64's secret sector flag (probably in a day or two; I'm getting sleepy :P ).

 

There's still a bit more tinkering I'll need to do before my DMMPST "fork" (or update, if Xymph is up for adopting it) is ready for general use, since the Doom64 PC IWAD stores maps as wads-within-a-wad and I'll need to sneak in support for that at some point, but the goal is to produce something that'll be usable for generating wiki page skeletons for Doom64 pwads, should that ever become a thing. :P

Xaser Acheron, doing the Doom God's work since 2003.

 

PS: Doom 64 EX's generated WAD stored the levels in the same way, so that'd be a problem with either solution. I think it's got to do with how levels were stored in the original game ROM.

 

And hell yes I'd like to see Doom 64 PWADs become a thing.

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12 minutes ago, Xaser said:

since the Doom64 PC IWAD stores maps as wads-within-a-wad

 

9 minutes ago, Dark Pulse said:

PS: Doom 64 EX's generated WAD stored the levels in the same way, so that'd be a problem with either solution. I think it's got to do with how levels were stored in the original game ROM.

It's because the N64 ROM, and thus Doom64 itself, did this. The N64 ROM had a main IWAD (seemingly no file name, but the header & dictionary is there) with each map placed in their own IWADs, compressed inside the main IWAD. Doom64 has the compression flag (though not the format) from Jag Doom.

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6 hours ago, P41R47 said:

Oh i don't use much guides except for when i'm really stuck. And i just use them to discover that, sometimes, i'm a complete retard for not thinking something soo obvious jajaja.
I'm gonna check if there is something interesting.

Hope you can enjoy your play ;)

its a great site for all kinds of thing. lately I’ve been using it to get the manual backstories for all of the classic wads in UD, D2, FD, and D64

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5 hours ago, Dark Pulse said:

It'd definitely be possible, though I don't know how accurate the D64EX maps are compared to the commercial Doom 64 release. I don't see any reason why Things and whatnot would be different between the maps though, which is what those tables would need. And SLADE can certainly open up the "new" DOOM64.WAD file, so it doesn't look like much has changed in that sense. (Though it's got hash differences, so there's definitely changes.)

 

At that point it'd just be down to looking in EX's source for the necessary map format info, implementing that into Xymph's tools, and having it parse DOOM64.WAD to generate the info to slap into the wiki.

do you (or anyone else here) know whether or not there is a rocket launcher in map 12: altar of pain? is there a way to find out by checking the code of EX?

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2 hours ago, Xaser said:

 

A few hours ago I started to type out a response to Xymph, asking about this, but then it dawned on me, "hey, I'm a programmer"... so I may have accidentally grabbed DMMPST's source and started adding Doom64 support for it. :P

 

So far I've got it reading in the map format and outputting map & thing statistics (including Doom64's new things, Unmaker & all), and I'll probably be at the point where I can export all the relevant wiki markup once I add support for D64's secret sector flag (probably in a day or two; I'm getting sleepy :P ).

 

There's still a bit more tinkering I'll need to do before my DMMPST "fork" (or update, if Xymph is up for adopting it) is ready for general use, since the Doom64 PC IWAD stores maps as wads-within-a-wad and I'll need to sneak in support for that at some point, but the goal is to produce something that'll be usable for generating wiki page skeletons for Doom64 pwads, should that ever become a thing. :P

hey do you know if you can check if there is a rocket launcher pickup at all in map 12: altar of pain? there are a lot of rockets lying around but I cannot find anything about a rocket launcher in any guides

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Hey @LucidLocomotive, it is poor etiquette to make 2 posts in a row asking the same question, and generally 2 or more posts in a row. You can group all questions into the same post, quote multiple people, and even edit existing posts. Thank you in advance.

 

As for your question:

7 minutes ago, LucidLocomotive said:

hey do you know if you can check if there is a rocket launcher pickup at all in map 12: altar of pain?

There are no rocket launchers.

image.png

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6 hours ago, Xeriphas1994 said:

 

I think it's a compliment to the rest of the community -- a lot of good mapsets still come out every year! If the wiki were all caught up, that would imply overall activity was stagnant. :(

Even The Sky May Be page had a recent update!

5 hours ago, Quasar said:

Some (a lot) of the time had to be spent to create the other 10,129 some odd articles on the wiki. Whatever is a priority to one person isn't necessarily to anyone else.

So much this. I feel that every active contributor on the page primarily spends time on one facet of Doom - And other fill in the other facets. It absolutely is an ongoing work that is done together.

 

The only thing i am bummed on is that the 10.000 article was just a level page. I dunno, i was pining for something more memorable. :P

2 hours ago, Xaser said:

 

A few hours ago I started to type out a response to Xymph, asking about this, but then it dawned on me, "hey, I'm a programmer"... so I may have accidentally grabbed DMMPST's source and started adding Doom64 support for it. :P

 

So far I've got it reading in the map format and outputting map & thing statistics (including Doom64's new things, Unmaker & all), and I'll probably be at the point where I can export all the relevant wiki markup once I add support for D64's secret sector flag (probably in a day or two; I'm getting sleepy :P ).

 

There's still a bit more tinkering I'll need to do before my DMMPST "fork" (or update, if Xymph is up for adopting it) is ready for general use, since the Doom64 PC IWAD stores maps as wads-within-a-wad and I'll need to sneak in support for that at some point, but the goal is to produce something that'll be usable for generating wiki page skeletons for Doom64 pwads, should that ever become a thing. :P

I assume you already saw this, but in the case you did not, would it make sense to team up with Revenant's recent drawmap python efforts? I feel it can't hurt!

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7 hours ago, Quasar said:

Some (a lot) of the time had to be spent to create the other 10,129 some odd articles on the wiki. Whatever is a priority to one person isn't necessarily to anyone else. There's a bad situation with Doom 64 maps - the tooling we have doesn't support them. Xymph is not currently able to auto generate thing tables for them, for example, because his libraries don't have Doom 64 map format support.

 

Maybe somebody with some python knowledge should volunteer to take care of that problem first.

This is mixing stuff up: the statistics/things tables are generated with DMMPST which is written in C. Map views are generated with Omgifol in Python.

 

The primary reason why I haven't spent any effort on Doom64 is that, as a PC gamer, I have little knowledge about console versions, and none about '64. So I don't even know where to get the original IWAD which, as a commercial release (in a ROM?), I presume isn't readily available online. But that too is just an assumption.

 

In the past I found or received (converted or extracted) level WADs for PSX, Jaguar, GBA1&2, 32X, but I still don't understand what the situation with '64 is or how this relates to 64EX. Some of you above seem to know lots more about it, so care to enlighten me (perhaps in communication separate from this topic)?

 

As for Xaser adding '64 support to DMMPST, that's fine -- please share it once ready so I can see whether including it in the general release makes sense.

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1 hour ago, Redneckerz said:

The only thing i am bummed on is that the 10.000 article was just a level page. I dunno, i was pining for something more memorable. :P

It would have been awkward to try and time that bot page additions stopped at 9,999 and then wait (possibly days) until a human editor created some new article. ;-)

Besides, once some delete-nominations are executed, another article will become # 10,000. So... <shrug> :-)

 

Quote

I assume you already saw this, but in the case you did not, would it make sense to team up with Revenant's recent drawmap python efforts? I feel it can't hurt!

This too is mixing up stats from a C tool with map views from a Python tool. They are unrelated.

 

Btw, the textured map views may become interesting and pretty illustrations to map articles, but as additional images in a gallery. The default map views with white backgrounds should not be replaced, as those serve to illustrate the walkthrough/secret lists, with the option of spotted variants to be added later (or immediately for DM levels).

Edited by Xymph

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