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LucidLocomotive

a most unusual occurrence on this very day over at the doomwiki

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now, to be clear of course I am referring to the doomwiki-org. i am playing a brand new favorite of mine with a title of “doom 64”. and when I get to mission 6 I say to myself, “now, I wonder what kinds of secrets I will needing to watch out for here and on this exact level, hmmmm”. i head on over to doomwiki and see the “secrets” section for map 6 sucks! it doesn’t even number them, and it only has one secret! (the heck?) so what do I do? i go on over to the dumb and deformed cousin who will not be named, and I find a beautiful “secrets” section, complete with all 3 secrets. i immediately say “hey, I better edit the doomwiki page and copy this information over to it. 

 

so i go to doomwiki, make an account, click the button to edit the section, and it kind of glitches out or something. i was not able to paste the text because the editor box only had the above sections displayed for editing. so I went back and refreshed it to try again, but when I scrolled down, wouldnt you know it? somebody else must have done it at the exact moment I was planning on doing it. it had displayed on the secrets section the exact text with all 3 secrets, that i was planning on pasting. so i scroll down and “huh? last edited 2 months ago? the hells going on?”. 

 

i thought “oh well, i guess it just hasn’t registered the uodate yet.” i start playing the level and then later i forgot the last 2 secrets, so I go back to the page and ITS BACK TO HOW IT WAS WHEN I FIRST LOOKED AT IT. This is extremely bizarre. unfortunately I didn’t get a screenshot of when the secrets section was complete. but I do have a pic of what it originally looked like (which is what it looks like now as of me writing this, on my end at least.). here it is: https://imgur.com/3K0Yl5n

 

what could be the cause behind this? is it just something supernatural, or naht exactly? 

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Who knows. According to the update log, the last person to touch it was ZeroTheEro on April 8th, and it's waiting for a wiki editor to approve the changes.

 

So basically, if you edited it, it didn't register.

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9 minutes ago, Dark Pulse said:

Who knows. According to the update log, the last person to touch it was ZeroTheEro on April 8th, and it's waiting for a wiki editor to approve the changes.

 

So basically, if you edited it, it didn't register.

i did not edit it, but it still showed the thing that I was PLANNING on editing it with! thats the crazy thing. i guess for now I will just stick with fandom, since it has so many more complete sections 

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3 minutes ago, LucidLocomotive said:

i did not edit it, but it still showed the thing that I was PLANNING on editing it with! thats the crazy thing. i guess for now I will just stick with fandom, since it has so many more complete sections 

Saying things like that will get you shanked around these parts, as Doomworld basically disowns the Fandom wiki en masse.

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Well, sometimes the fandom pages *do* have more information. I don't know why, they really shouldn't because fandom is shite.

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Wow, your posting style is slowly getting more re-

Only the verified editors (which is about 20-30 iirc) can have their edits approved immediately.

Sounds like you auto logged out, you can either log back in the wiki or view the edit revision. You are a nobody, so it's normal your edits haven't got approved yet (and may never will)

 

Plus, imho, if you want more new Doom stuff that looks better on the surface, Fandom is the way.

 

If you want to delve into carefully written content, and have your contributions regarded after maybe 3 months, .org is for you.

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1 hour ago, TheNoob_Gamer said:

Wow, your posting style is slowly getting more re-

Only the verified editors (which is about 20-30 iirc) can have their edits approved immediately.

Sounds like you auto logged out, you can either log back in the wiki or view the edit revision. You are a nobody, so it's normal your edits haven't got approved yet (and may never will)

 

Plus, imho, if you want more new Doom stuff that looks better on the surface, Fandom is the way.

 

If you want to delve into carefully written content, and have your contributions regarded after maybe 3 months, .org is for you.

oh no, you misunderstood. i did not edit the page. i didn’t edit it at all. i was GOING TO edit it, but then I clicked the back button on my phone before I even clicked on the text area. i 100% did not edit it, but it was showing the thing that I was planning on editing it with. and now it doesn’t anymore. that was the whole point of this post, because that was pretty crazy that something like that happened and I cannot figure out how or why

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Unapproved edits are not visible to guest users, only registered. If an edit was pending approval, you wouldn't have seen it until you made the account. 

2 hours ago, LucidLocomotive said:

i was not able to paste the text because the editor box only had the above sections displayed for editing. 

If you click a sub-edit button next to a section, you'll only see/be able to edit the text of that section. You either need to click the edit button of that relevant section, or the edit tab at the very top of the page. 

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2 hours ago, Dark Pulse said:

Doomworld basically disowns the Fandom wiki en masse.

Really? I've contributed to that in the past, what's the big deal? Too many ads?

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5 hours ago, LucidLocomotive said:

so i go to doomwiki, make an account, click the button to edit the section, and it kind of glitches out or something. i was not able to paste the text because the editor box only had the above sections displayed for editing. so I went back and refreshed it to try again, but when I scrolled down, wouldnt you know it? somebody else must have done it at the exact moment I was planning on doing it. it had displayed on the secrets section the exact text with all 3 secrets, that i was planning on pasting. so i scroll down and “huh? last edited 2 months ago? the hells going on?”. 

This is utterly confusing to read.

It sounds like you tried to enter text in a subsection of an article, which is only possible if the article has subsections to begin with.

You also tried to do this in the mobile layout. My preference is to use the Desktop layout on mobile. Yes, it makes everything look extremely tiny but you can just zoom in. Atleast that way you can verify what additional errors may pop up. If an edit is not made in a set amount of time, it will throw an error that the session was not submitted. I am not sure if this also applies to unregistered users, though.
 

4 hours ago, LucidLocomotive said:

i did not edit it, but it still showed the thing that I was PLANNING on editing it with! thats the crazy thing. i guess for now I will just stick with fandom, since it has so many more complete sections 

7fnne.jpg

No. Just because it has complete sections does not mean they are accurate. Just because you found one entry that is not yet updated to spec does not mean going to Fandom is a reasonable alternative.

Fandom's overseers can care less about accuracy which is the whole point of a Wiki to begin with. Then, most of the reasons Edward mentioned apply: Shit layout, garbage ads (On a Wiki, really?), no quality control, and then some.

I am sorry that i react so strongly to this but we really need to end this idea that the Fandom is a reasonable alternative.

4 hours ago, Nevander said:

Well, sometimes the fandom pages *do* have more information. I don't know why, they really shouldn't because fandom is shite.

Likely because they are done specifically or by people who either are equally clueless that an actual Wiki exists or simply like to deal with garbage ads and a crappy layout.

I have offered to bring over what's useful to Wiki but it has to be presented. I am not going to look over all the things myself because i have far better things to do with my activity there, one of them being to correct my own spelling mistakes :P

2 hours ago, Maximum Matt said:

Really? I've contributed to that in the past, what's the big deal? Too many ads?

You wonder what the big deal is and then you already present one reason as to why Fandom needs to dragged straight into a black hole.

PSA to all: Don't use Fandom if you care the slightest inch about the contributions you make or want to make.

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7 hours ago, Redneckerz said:

This is utterly confusing to read.

It sounds like you tried to enter text in a subsection of an article, which is only possible if the article has subsections to begin with.

You also tried to do this in the mobile layout. My preference is to use the Desktop layout on mobile. Yes, it makes everything look extremely tiny but you can just zoom in. Atleast that way you can verify what additional errors may pop up. If an edit is not made in a set amount of time, it will throw an error that the session was not submitted. I am not sure if this also applies to unregistered users, though.
 

7fnne.jpg

No. Just because it has complete sections does not mean they are accurate. Just because you found one entry that is not yet updated to spec does not mean going to Fandom is a reasonable alternative.

Fandom's overseers can care less about accuracy which is the whole point of a Wiki to begin with. Then, most of the reasons Edward mentioned apply: Shit layout, garbage ads (On a Wiki, really?), no quality control, and then some.

I am sorry that i react so strongly to this but we really need to end this idea that the Fandom is a reasonable alternative.

Likely because they are done specifically or by people who either are equally clueless that an actual Wiki exists or simply like to deal with garbage ads and a crappy layout.

I have offered to bring over what's useful to Wiki but it has to be presented. I am not going to look over all the things myself because i have far better things to do with my activity there, one of them being to correct my own spelling mistakes :P

You wonder what the big deal is and then you already present one reason as to why Fandom needs to dragged straight into a black hole.

PSA to all: Don't use Fandom if you care the slightest inch about the contributions you make or want to make.

oh wow okay, I apologize. i will not use fandom unless it is to carry info from it to the real wiki if I notice a stub

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Don't really see the problem with using the old wiki a bit if there's some more accurate information there, just use adblock lol

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1 hour ago, LucidLocomotive said:

oh wow okay, I apologize. i will not use fandom unless it is to carry info from it to the real wiki if I notice a stub

No need to apologize :) I am not attacking you, i am just vehemently against Fandom's existence solely because some of its entries pop up higher on the Google SEO list than the official Wiki, meaning that Google, of all things, thinks Fandom is more relevant for certain subjects than the actual wiki.

 

This is especially annoying if the DoomWiki version actually has the accurate content. So you could argue that Fandom essentially promotes misinformation and does nothing to mitigate that issue (of which there are many).

1 hour ago, doomsucksass said:

Don't really see the problem with using the old wiki a bit if there's some more accurate information there, just use adblock lol

That's the thing - you don't know if its accurate because nothing is verified.

 

''Just use adblock'' is mitigating the symptoms, not solving it. A proper Wiki should look semi-professional - Fandom is anything but professional by the way they handle things, how they handled the split, and how they handle entries.

 

If you could get DoomGuide to the Galaxy produced by id Software and you could get DoomGuide to the Galaxy produced by Randomness Incorporated, what would you pick? The official thing or the carbon copy?

 

I would always prefer the id Software one, especially when it has unique sections that Fandom does not have, like practically finished Amiga Doom representation, source modifications, accurate level description data, obscure factoids and so on.

Fandom is just a disjointed mess that's more the visual representation of something you would find in Roblox than an actual, professional knowledge base. Encyclopedia's exist precisely for that reason, not just to be another lollerskate centre of operations that's fused with oh so funny randomness.

Edited by Redneckerz

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3 hours ago, Redneckerz said:

No need to apologize :) I am not attacking you, i am just vehemently against Fandom's existence solely because some of its entries pop up higher on the Google SEO list than the official Wiki, meaning that Google, of all things, thinks Fandom is more relevant for certain subjects than the actual wiki.

 

This is especially annoying if the DoomWiki version actually has the accurate content. So you could argue that Fandom essentially promotes misinformation and does nothing to mitigate that issue (of which there are many).

That's the thing - you don't know if its accurate because nothing is verified.

 

''Just use adblock'' is mitigating the symptoms, not solving it. A proper Wiki should look semi-professional - Fandom is anything but professional by the way they handle things, how they handled the split, and how they handle entries.

 

If you could get DoomGuide to the Galaxy produced by id Software and you could get DoomGuide to the Galaxy produced by Randomness Incorporated, what would you pick? The official thing or the carbon copy?

 

I would always prefer the id Software one, especially when it has unique sections that Fandom does not have, like practically finished Amiga Doom representation, source modifications, accurate level description data, obscure factoids and so on.

Fandom is just a disjointed mess that's more the visual representation of something you would find in Roblox than an actual, professional knowledge base. Encyclopedia's exist precisely for that reason, not just to be another lollerskate centre of operations that's fused with oh so funny randomness.

the only thing i disagree with is the level information. fandom has a lot more trivia or other little things for the original trilogy levels, and then with doom 64 its actually filled out. for some reason on the real doomwiki, the majority of the doom 64 levels are completely missing sections like “statistics” and secrets, even though its a mainstream title (not fan-made) and has been out since 1997

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1 minute ago, LucidLocomotive said:

the only thing i disagree with is the level information. fandom has a lot more trivia or other little things for the original trilogy levels, and then with doom 64 its actually filled out. for some reason on the real doomwiki, the majority of the doom 64 levels are completely missing sections like “statistics” and secrets, even though its a mainstream title (not fan-made) and has been out since 1997

Which could easily be added, it's just that nobody's bothered to really do it.

 

Maybe that will now happen with the re-release.

 

As for trivia... well, key thing to remember is conjecture versus sourced notes. Anyone can put down trivia for anything, but someone doing their job will have a source or a link or something, or at the very least put down that it's community conjecture or something.

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14 hours ago, Edward850 said:

Unapproved edits are not visible to guest users, only registered. If an edit was pending approval, you wouldn't have seen it until you made the account. 

If you click a sub-edit button next to a section, you'll only see/be able to edit the text of that section. You either need to click the edit button of that relevant section, or the edit tab at the very top of the page. 

that has to be the explanation! somebody else edited it in a while ago, but I didn’t make an account until then, so it didn’t show. and yes indeed i was logged out again when i went back to it.  you have cracked the case. this is awesome. thank you 

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1 minute ago, Dark Pulse said:

Which could easily be added, it's just that nobody's bothered to really do it.

 

Maybe that will now happen with the re-release.

 

As for trivia... well, key thing to remember is conjecture versus sourced notes. Anyone can put down trivia for anything, but someone doing their job will have a source or a link or something, or at the very least put down that it's community conjecture or something.

but the only problem is that even if someone adds it, apparently from what others here have said, it can take months for it to be approved, and it most likely wont be unless you are certified (according to the other commenters here)

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30 minutes ago, LucidLocomotive said:

but the only problem is that even if someone adds it, apparently from what others here have said, it can take months for it to be approved, and it most likely wont be unless you are certified (according to the other commenters here)

Basically the way Doom Wiki works is that they cut down on spam. To prevent spam, users aren't just allowed to edit and have changes immediately go live; they must be approved by an editor first.

 

However, once a user has done enough edits (200, IIRC?), they are considered trusted, get promoted to editors, and their edits get published automatically.

 

It's a tradeoff of one problem for another.

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15 hours ago, LucidLocomotive said:

the only thing i disagree with is the level information. fandom has a lot more trivia or other little things for the original trilogy levels, and then with doom 64 its actually filled out. for some reason on the real doomwiki, the majority of the doom 64 levels are completely missing sections like “statistics” and secrets, even though its a mainstream title (not fan-made) and has been out since 1997

A lot of these are made by Xymphbot, an automated bot that generates map pages and visualized maps automatically, to be filled later.

 

Fandom does not have that.

14 hours ago, LucidLocomotive said:

but the only problem is that even if someone adds it, apparently from what others here have said, it can take months for it to be approved, and it most likely wont be unless you are certified (according to the other commenters here)

There are only a few daily active editors, to approve something generally means you have to verify if what is stated is correct or makes logical sense.

14 hours ago, Dark Pulse said:

Basically the way Doom Wiki works is that they cut down on spam. To prevent spam, users aren't just allowed to edit and have changes immediately go live; they must be approved by an editor first.

 

However, once a user has done enough edits (200, IIRC?), they are considered trusted, get promoted to editors, and their edits get published automatically.

 

It's a tradeoff of one problem for another.

It can happen also after 90 days or so. I got mines a bit earlier manually.

 

Basically, make quality edits from a neutral perspective: formal in tone, avoid personal conjecture as much as possible.

 

Some users build a manual article over time with multiple edits. Others deliver full pages in one go, barring minor errors.

 

A lot can be automated (like level stats, visualised maps) but a lot of others like specific history or features are a manual job. It takes reading a lot of documentation, searching, and sometimes even digging through source code to get the details. But sometimes, details simply arent available.

 

In that case all you can do is make a logical deduction (if this, then that). As long as it makes logically sense.

Edited by Redneckerz

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1 hour ago, LucidLocomotive said:

but the only problem is that even if someone adds it, apparently from what others here have said, it can take months for it to be approved, and it most likely wont be unless you are certified (according to the other commenters here)

I've done over 100 contributions to the wiki and all of them were approved within a couple hours at most.

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Actually, unapproved edits are public, they're just harder to find (so Google doesn't see them in case they contain spam or stalking). Click the "pending changes" tab at the top. Quasar has talked about going to full moderation, e.g. because of SESTA, but so far it hasn't happened.

 

More details about "promotion" are here, but any wiki admin can also do it manually. If you believe you have a good track record elsewhere in the community, and you want to help, feel free to post about it.

 

Phone editing is hit and miss. I think maintaining complete desktop-friendly and mobile-friendly layouts requires extra server horsepower and web development skills, and we're short of both.  :7  That said, Redneckerz is correct that it's more responsive if you activate "desktop mode" at the bottom first.

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On 5/24/2020 at 12:41 PM, Dark Pulse said:

Who knows. According to the update log, the last person to touch it was ZeroTheEro on April 8th, and it's waiting for a wiki editor to approve the changes.

 

So basically, if you edited it, it didn't register.

That was me. And I am still waiting for Quasar's approval. 


@LucidLocomotive basically, the wiki shows the stable edit if you are a guest, but the editor will show the most recent edit added. It's not a glitch, you'll get used to it.

Edited by ZeroTheEro

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4 hours ago, ZeroTheEro said:

That was me. And I am still waiting for Quasar's approval. 


@LucidLocomotive basically, the wiki shows the stable edit if you are a guest, but the editor will show the most recent edit added. It's not a glitch, you'll get used to it.

You know i can also approve it. Ill give it a look.

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9 hours ago, Redneckerz said:

A lot of these are made by Xymphbot, an automated bot that generates map pages and visualized maps automatically, to be filled later. 

I do this for community WADs, and also for commercial ones if I get access to them, e.g. GBA1, Jaguar and PSX. But I don't have access to Doom 64 -- hence can't generate stats/maps -- nor knowledge about it, so I don't feel qualified to approve non-trivial edits. Grammar, spelling, links, formatting, that sort of stuff is all trivial.

 

Quasar and I (and perhaps others) do approve loads of changes by anonymous and registered users if they are sensible, hence the experience of contributors like Andromeda is better than of ZeroTheEro, because nobody knowledgeable about Doom64 has gotten around to those changes yet. But the list of pending changes isn't that long, so all in all we're not doing too badly. Even though some edits indeed have been waiting for a long time already. As Quasar mentioned on IRC some time ago, more reviewers (ideally with knowledge about pending topics) are needed.

Edited by Xymph

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42 minutes ago, Xymph said:

I do this for community WADs, and also for commercial ones if I get access to them, e.g. GBA1, Jaguar and PSX. But I don't have access to Doom 64 -- hence can't generate stats/maps -- nor knowledge about it, so I don't feel qualified to approve non-trivial edits. Grammar, spelling, links, formatting, that sort of stuff is all trivial.

Just want to add that you are quite the lifesaver in regards to spelling - I tend to present articles in whole and although i do an extensive check before publishing, i do miss spelling errors - Part of being close to, but not quite, a native speaker.

I am sure there is a name for it - The phenomenon that you are better at grammar checking other people's works as opposed to grammar checking your own. Bias? :P

42 minutes ago, Xymph said:

Quasar and I (and perhaps others) do approve loads of changes by anonymous and registered users if they are sensible, hence the experience of contributors like Andromeda is better than of ZeroTheEro, because nobody knowledgeable about Doom64 has gotten around to those changes yet. But the list of pending changes isn't that long, so all in all we're not doing too badly. Even though some edits indeed have been waiting for a long time already.

FWIW i gave Zero's a look and accepted the revision. Sometimes i just stumble on old pages that are either unchecked or have pending revisions so ill just gloss them over if needed.

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5 hours ago, Redneckerz said:

You know i can also approve it. Ill give it a look.

I actually don't know. Now I know. 

Thank ye.

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9 minutes ago, ZeroTheEro said:

I actually don't know. Now I know. 

Thank ye.

You are welcome. For saving purposes, here is a list of active editors.

 

If something needs to be approved, feel free to PM me or leave a message at my userpage and ill try to get at the very least a comment out. Note that i absolutely do not know everything - I just edit a lot :P But if i can help, any time!

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2 minutes ago, Redneckerz said:

You are welcome. For saving purposes, here is a list of active editors.

 

If something needs to be approved, feel free to PM me or leave a message at my userpage and ill try to get at the very least a comment out. Note that i absolutely do not know everything - I just edit a lot :P But if i can help, any time!

Awesome, I'll keep that in mind. 

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I try to clear the pending edits within a couple days but things got stupidly crazy during March and April - Doom 64 and Doom Eternal both released, and I was involved with the prior. On top of that I wanted to spend a lot of my free time playing the latter. So some things fell out of the recent changes list before I even had a chance to look over them in some cases.

 

I also got extremely frustrated with people copypasting text from the in-game codex, which is not allowed due to copyright.

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