Duke Nukem 3D or Quake?

[frag enabler]

1 hour ago, ReaperAA said:

I feel that Duke's character could still work, but he would definitely need major updating (and not the updating that DNF did).

It could, definitely, just not the way modern gamedevs go about "modernizing" old franchises, ie. making everyone spew out irrelevant and cringeworthy memes.

DNF, a game released in 2011, was referencing:

300, a mediocre movie released in 2006 that everybody forgot about 2 years later

Robocop, a movie released in 1987

Predator, a movie released in 1987

Starship Troopers, a movie released in 1997

Army of Darkness, a movie released in 1992 (this can be forgiven, though, seeing as these phrases are more or less Duke's own right now)

Escape from New York, a movie released in 1982

Back to the Future part II, a movie released in 1989

Commando, a movie released in 1985

Miracles, a song released by a pair of clowns, basically a shitty meme

plus a bunch of (failed) pokes at other, much more succesful titles (HL, Halo, GoW). There game was also supposed to include a jab at Serious Sam, but they probably realized that unlike DNF, SS3 was shaping up to be a great game (it really wasn't). It was on par with Borderlands 3 having Pickle Rick and Amber Lamps (does anybody seriously even remember this in 2020?).

They need to hire writers that are in touch with modern pop culture and have a good degree of self-awareness. I swear, if the same people were to "write" Duke today, we'd no doubt see something along the lines "dat boi", any spin on this stupid fucking doge meme or worse, "haha <%thing> go <%noise>".

3DR really should've hired Yahtzee when they had the chance.

[snapshot]

Duke3D, Quake felt horribly dull.

[A Nobody]

I'm surprised that Quake is taking the reign.

[ReaperAA]

51 minutes ago, SuperchargedEuthanasiaDiv said:

They need to hire writers that are in touch with modern pop culture and have a good degree of self-awareness. I swear, if the same people were to "write" Duke today, we'd no doubt see something along the lines "dat boi", any spin on this stupid fucking doge meme or worse, "haha <%thing> go <%noise>".

3DR really should've hired Yahtzee when they had the chance.

 

To be honest, I don't think that even referencing "modern" pop culture is a great idea (let alone dated stuff that DNF did). Why? Because the modern lines and culture would become obsolete too one day. I think that the best thing would be to come up with original lines and quotes that match with the Duke's persona.

[Cacodemon345]

The entire comparison is self-selective by nature in the Doom community. You will get different results if you were to post the same question in one of the Duke3D (and possibly other Build games) forums.

[Biodegradable]

1 hour ago, SuperchargedEuthanasiaDiv said:

3DR really should've hired Yahtzee when they had the chance.

 

They did! They just rejected the treatment he wrote for the game and thanked him for his time that they wasted. I sure hope the bastards at least compensated him well enough.

[seed]

4 hours ago, ReaperAA said:

The weapons in Duke are also more creative than those in Quake. Quake probably has the most "typical" weapons in any FPS game ever whereas Duke at least tried to be creative with the weaponry.

 

I think you got it the other way around bud :p.

 

The Axe, useless as it is, Grenade Launcher, the shotguns, Nail Guns, and the Lightning Gun... nah, Duke's arsenal just pales in comparison... the only highlights it has are the Devastator and Freeze Gun, the others aren't even remotely original, creative maybe, a little.

 

4 hours ago, Foebane72 said:

And to be honest, who in their right mind would want to play such a mysogynistic, sexist character as Nukem, anyway? His most recent outing, Forever, was proof that there's no place in this modern world for his style of... anything. And the first two Nukem games were really nothing special, neither, being crappy platform games. Looks like 3D was his only real hit. I just don't get the love for that guy.

 

You are mixing up the Dukes. What you are describing here is purely the DNF2011 Duke. The original was not an asshole with a superiority complex, full of himself, sexually frustrated who sees little more than means to achieve sexual gratification in women, and who also thinks he's king of the world.

 

You can thank Broussard for the abysmal depiction of Duke in that game and the pathetic writing in general as well. DNF2011 is best summed up in two words: ego hell.

[Dark Pulse]

Quake was more technically impressive, Duke had the better soul.

 

Under which criteria am I to judge?

[A Nobody]

Always bet on Duke.

[taufan99]

Gameplay-wise: DN3D
Atmosphere- and technology-wise: Quake

 

Spoiler

Also, DN64 > DN3D.

@mrthejoshmon Whoa mate! Are you my distant relative? We sure share that same opinion.

[Cacodemon345]

5 minutes ago, InDOOMnesia said:

Gameplay-wise: DN3D
Atmosphere- and technology-wise: Quake

I would move the Atmosphere part into DN3D.

 

Because, Quake 1's atmosphere looks dated by today's standards, while Duke3D's atmosphere was better and aged more well, in my opinion.

[taufan99]

2 minutes ago, Cacodemon345 said:

I would move the Atmosphere part into DN3D.

 

Because, Quake 1's atmosphere looks dated by today's standards, while Duke3D's atmosphere was better and aged more well, in my opinion.

I can see where you're coming from; it's a kick-ass experience of going throughout big cities and space stations to kick alien asses, but I prefer Quake's fearsome atmosphere. It always keeps me on my toes, even the more colorful N64 port.

[ReaperAA]

23 minutes ago, seed said:

I think you got it the other way around bud :p.

 

The Axe, useless as it is, Grenade Launcher, the shotguns, Nail Guns, and the Lightning Gun... nah, Duke's arsenal just pales in comparison... the only highlights it has are the Devastator and Freeze Gun, the others aren't even remotely original, creative maybe, a little.

 

Nah, I am pretty sure I didn't :p

 

I was only considering creativity here, not how "solid" the weapons feel. In terms of "solid" feel, Quake definitely wins. The Nailguns are pretty much similar to plasma gun (fast firing projectiles). The shotguns are well.... shotguns. The axe is a simple melee weapon. The grenade launcher was also done other games. Only the lighting gun was something new.

 

Duke 3D had shrink gun, pipe bombs, laser trip mine and freeze gun as the new weapons which weren't really common in most FPS games at that time (if not outright unavailable). Gimmicky yes, but also more creative than the standard weapons.

[Cacodemon345]

33 minutes ago, seed said:

The Axe, useless as it is, Grenade Launcher, the shotguns, Nail Guns, and the Lightning Gun... nah, Duke's arsenal just pales in comparison... the only highlights it has are the Devastator and Freeze Gun, the others aren't even remotely original, creative maybe, a little.

I found Duke3D's arsenal to be always more creative than Quake 1's one.

Quake 1's arsenal is just a rehash (mostly) of Doom's arsenal; the only thing new was the Lightning gun.

[seed]

12 minutes ago, Cacodemon345 said:

I found Duke3D's arsenal to be always more creative than Quake 1's one.

Quake 1's arsenal is just a rehash (mostly) of Doom's arsenal; the only thing new was the Lightning gun.

 

Well, idk, excluding the shotgun - supershotgun I don't think they are a rehash at all, though it could have used one or two more weapons instead of 2 weapons that are basically upgrades of each other (Shotgun - SSG; Nail Gun - Super Nail Gun). And they do feel more solid and are more fun to use than Duke's overall. but then again that's subjective.

 

22 minutes ago, ReaperAA said:

I was only considering creativity here, not how "solid" the weapons feel. In terms of "solid" feel, Quake definitely wins. The Nailguns are pretty much similar to plasma gun (fast firing projectiles). The shotguns are well.... shotguns. The axe is a simple melee weapon. The grenade launcher was also done other games. Only the lighting gun was something new.

 

Duke 3D had shrink gun, pipe bombs, laser trip mine and freeze gun as the new weapons which weren't really common in most FPS games at that time (if not outright unavailable). Gimmicky yes, but also more creative than the standard weapons.

 

I was mostly thinking of grenade jumping when I listed the GL, obviously that's nowhere near a groundbreaking weapon, but what you could do with it.

 

Also that's another "DUH, dumbass" moment for me, I forgot about the Shrieker/Expander completely lol. Yeah, compared to what was done at the time they were creative for sure, but I think the fact that some are so gimmicky kills some of the charm. Trip Mines were also plain useless, just as useless as they were in HL1 actually :p .

 

No wonder HL2 killed them off, although the SLAM was available in Deathmatch, and the fact that they could be detonated remotely made them quite a bit more practical and tactical. Pure Trip Mines suck.

[frag enabler]

1 hour ago, Biodegradable said:

 

They did! They just rejected the treatment he wrote for the game and thanked him for his time that they wasted. I sure hope the bastards at least compensated him well enough.

Wasn't it more of him giving them a snippet and 3DR rejecting it because it didn't fit their "vision"?

Nevermind, I did a little bit of research and as it turns out, Yahtzee's piece was loved by everyone... except fucking George Broussard. You know, the guy responsible for dragging DNF and 3DR through the mud. The guy who would scrap it mutliple times and make people start over from scratch. The guy who decided to switch engines, like what, 3 times? Yeah, that asshole. It's thanks to him that DNF is running on UE. Not UE2, not UE3, but a wretched monstrosity that is UE with modern features dangling off of it like inoperable tumors. It's thanks to him that DNF manages to tank on 8 gigabyte cards.

Yahtzee's insight on the matter

the video in question

 

[Biodegradable]

Yeah, for real. Yahtzee's approach of amping up the irony/goof factor of Duke's character would've been a much more interesting experience that would've been propelled the character into a direction that made so much more sense, especially since Duke3D didn't take itself seriously. It's weird that Yahtzee very much understood that Duke is essentially a walking-talking parody of 80s/90s action movie protagonists, but somewhere along the way, George Broussard forgot about that. Talk about a missed opportunity.

[Foebane72]

I didn't know about George Broussard's role in Duke Nukem Forever. He sounds as egotistical as John Romero was with Daikatana.

 

[A Nobody]

Each of Duke's weapons have different uses, have their own ammo pool, and are a ton of fun.

 

Atmosphere is not what matters (and shouldn't). It's about the awesome frantic gameplay they offer.

[seed]

17 minutes ago, The Strife Commando said:

Atmosphere is not what matters (and shouldn't). It's about the awesome frantic gameplay they offer.

 

Yes it does. A game with zero atmosphere that looks dull as fuck and sterile would get boring in 5 minutes, no amount of good gameplay will save the game if it has no soul and personality.

[A Nobody]

2 minutes ago, seed said:

 

Yes it does. A game with zero atmosphere that looks dull as fuck and sterile would get boring in 5 minutes, no amount of good gameplay will save the game if it has no soul and personality.

I'm not sure if anyone mentions atmosphere when talking about Classic Doom.

[seed]

Just now, The Strife Commando said:

Not sure if anyone mentions atmosphere when talking about Classic Doom.

 

They do, quite a lot actually, even though they care more about the gameplay, naturally. Browse some topics and see for yourself, don't have time to dig them up now.

 

In fact, the lack of atmosphere in many maps of Doom 2 & beyond was criticized. And also, atmosphere and the sound design are two things us PSX Doom & D64 fans absolutely love about these titles too.

[A Nobody]

8 minutes ago, seed said:

 

They do, quite a lot actually, even though they care more about the gameplay, naturally. Browse some topics and see for yourself, don't have time to dig them up now.

 

In fact, the lack of atmosphere in many maps of Doom 2 & beyond was criticized. And also, atmosphere and the sound design are two things us PSX Doom & D64 fans absolutely love about these titles too.

I like Doom 2's maps.

[MrFlibble]

Both Duke3D and Quake were aiming to be a step ahead of the then-current FPS games, but they did it differently: Duke3D created environments that looked and felt like real-life locations, while Quake created environments that worked like in real-life (i.e. true 3D).

[A Nobody]

28 minutes ago, MrFlibble said:

Both Duke3D and Quake were aiming to be a step ahead of the then-current FPS games, but they did it differently: Duke3D created environments that looked and felt like real-life locations, while Quake created environments that worked like in real-life (i.e. true 3D).

I feel that people prefer Quake because it's true 3D. :(

[Redneckerz]

3 hours ago, SuperchargedEuthanasiaDiv said:

Wasn't it more of him giving them a snippet and 3DR rejecting it because it didn't fit their "vision"?

Nevermind, I did a little bit of research and as it turns out, Yahtzee's piece was loved by everyone... except fucking George Broussard. You know, the guy responsible for dragging DNF and 3DR through the mud. The guy who would scrap it mutliple times and make people start over from scratch. The guy who decided to switch engines, like what, 3 times? Yeah, that asshole. It's thanks to him that DNF is running on UE. Not UE2, not UE3, but a wretched monstrosity that is UE with modern features dangling off of it like inoperable tumors. It's thanks to him that DNF manages to tank on 8 gigabyte cards.

Yahtzee's insight on the matter

the video in question

 

Its Unreal Warfare (The short lived intermediate engine between UE1/UE2) merged with a Shader Model 3 renderer (under DX9). Back in 2005-2006, this would have looked absolutely amazing (well, till Crysis came along).

 

In 2011, this looks like Rainbow Six Vegas (The first one).. which was one of the first UE3 games (requiring SM3). Same kind of omni-present world lighting, but also no AA on top of it.

 

At its best it still looks semi-decent but its obviously 3-4 years out of time.

 

Fun fact: Postal 2 also runs a Unreal Warfare derivative, as does the Its-UT2004-but-done-in-2002 clone Mobile Forces.

[A Nobody]

George should have not got involved with Duke Nukem Forever. The 2001 build was about to be finished, but George asked the team to leave it aside because he wanted his precious useless dynamic lighting.

[Get Phobo]

Quake was more fun in coop play somehow while Duke was more fun otherwise.

[frag enabler]

1 hour ago, Redneckerz said:

Its Unreal Warfare (The short lived intermediate engine between UE1/UE2) merged with a Shader Model 3 renderer (under DX9). Back in 2005-2006, this would have looked absolutely amazing (well, till Crysis came along).

Was this used to render the 2007 trailer as well? Cause I remember people reacting to it... very negatively. It looked fine to me, and seeing a high-res Duke was a big shock, but I wasn't exactly a graphical connoisseur back then (Oblivion being the prettiest game to me at that time) and cared more about the version of Grabbag they whipped out for that video.

1 hour ago, Redneckerz said:

In 2011, this looks like Rainbow Six Vegas (The first one).. which was one of the first UE3 games (requiring SM3). Same kind of omni-present world lighting, but also no AA on top of it.

At its best it still looks semi-decent but its obviously 3-4 years out of time.

With DoF and motion blur that can also be labelled as abominations, also I'm pretty sure DNF's AA doesn't actually do anything. Like, it does not improve the video quality and yet manages to drop your framerate.

I don't know what they tried to achieve with MB in DNF, but it lags for like half a second behind your movement, and DoF blurs out everything except for a tiny piece in the center.

 

[Redneckerz]

25 minutes ago, SuperchargedEuthanasiaDiv said:

Was this used to render the 2007 trailer as well? 

Yeah. Around 2004, they went SM3. Prior to that they aped Doom 3's lighting system. Then they realized that if they wanted normals, they had to scrap most of their work.