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Mr. Freeze

All Cops Are Bastards

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This is a very tough, sad and aggravating topic. As a non-American, not living there, but with some family ties to the US, I usually observe such issues with much interest.

 

2 hours ago, Mr. Freeze said:

Assisting officer Derek Chauvin in his act of state-sanctioned murder were officers Tou Thao, J. Alexander Kueng, and Thomas K. Lane. All of them were fired, but as of this moment only Chauvin has been arrested. Why are the rest still free? I don't know. Why didn't the Mythical Good Cop among them stop Chauvin from executing George Floyd? Who knows. 

It's likely that they will be arrested and charged at a later point. It took some time before he was arrested as well. If he is charged with murder, I find it hard to believe that they will be completely off the hook.

 

2 hours ago, Mr. Freeze said:

All cops are not individually bad people, no. But all cops prop up a system that gives them an absolute monopoly on violence.

This is an interesting point - the monopoly on violence. It got me thinking - how different would the situation be if the police force did not have a monopoly on violence. Would it be better or worse? And who else would be allowed (by law) to exercise violence against civilians, when and under which circumstances. How do you propose to reform the system?

 

1 hour ago, Doomkid said:

I can link to a whole fuckovalot more videos of cop violence against protestors and other related footage if you like. Not sure if DW has the stomach for the serious and important (yet very disturbing) thread that this will inevitably turn into right now, but if indeed we all mostly agree to it, I've got myself armed with knowledge, research, photos and recordings. Just in case any liars show up.

Arming oneself with knowledge and research is extremely important, but are you sure you are not arming yourself too much with "selective" knowledge? It seems that you suggest that the protesters are doing and have done absolutely nothing wrong, and all violence in what turned into riots is due to the police.

 

1 hour ago, Doomkid said:

According to most greyfaces on the interwebs right now, the right to not have a riots in America matters far more than the right to a fair trial (aka not being executed in public for no good reason)

Well, the right to not have riots disrupting and endangering one's life and well-being is a pretty important right. Individually, of course, the right to not be murdered by a police officer is far more important. It is possible to say plainly and openly that this was murder (and indeed the officer will be charged with it), and yet not support violent protests and destruction of property of completely unrelated civilians.

 

1 hour ago, Doomkid said:

Wages haven't increased for the commoners, yet that leech piece of scum Bezos and his buddies control such a disproportionately large percentage of the planet's wealth. Anyone who thinks one man, or indeed one entity of any kind, deserves that much money, or that hoarding so much wealth while so many people don't have a roof over their head or food to eat isn't disgusting -- you are immoral as fuck.

This is completely off-topic, but here is something I realized about this issue of disproportionate wealth distribution, a long time ago. It's not about whether one 'deserves' or not this or that. Any system you come up with, will have people that figure out a way to take advantage of the rules of that system, to maximize their own benefits, while others will be left behind. Sometimes it is malicious, at other times just circumstantial, but the end result is that no system will provide you with any guarantee of "fairness" (hard as it is to define this concept in the first place). That is not to say that we should ever cease of trying to improve the system, by making small changes here and there that can improve the well-beings of all individuals; however it's rarely as simple as take it all from the rich and give it to the poor.

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It seems that you suggest that the protesters are doing and have done absolutely nothing wrong, and all violence in what turned into riots is due to the police.

I would not and have not suggested such a thing.

 

3 hours ago, dr_st said:

This is completely off-topic, but here is something I realized about this issue of disproportionate wealth distribution, a long time ago. [...] it's rarely as simple as take it all from the rich and give it to the poor.

I would never (and have never) suggested that the solution is this simple. I cop a lot of flak from people who don't know what communism is. Many seem to have the misconception that "capitalism where the government actually uses taxpayer money to provide necessary services that a first world nation ought to have, like healthcare that doesn't put you in debt for the sole purpose of gratifying the insurance industry, as well as police who do not racially profile and aren't given nearly unlimited power over the lives of the citizens" is somehow the big evil dirty COMMUNISM. It's completely fallacious.

 

At heart I'm a reformist - one who knows that only a select few "basic but very important" things need to change to make this system far better for everyone, but when the various people in positions of power refuse to give even an inch to the people who desperately need a mile, it becomes blatantly obvious that peaceful reform has been ruled out as an option. Indeed, the people have been mostly-peacefully letting their will be known FOR DECADES to the elected officials who time and time again do literally nothing for them.

 

I don't like violence and wish it didn't have to come to this. Really, if the will of the commoner meant SHIT to anyone in a meaningful position of power, these riots could have been completely avoided. However, I agree with Einstein that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result, so I can't pretend to be surprised things have come to a violent head.

 

Quote

You say yer life's a bum deal and you're up against the wall?
Well, people, you ain't even got no kind of DEAL at ALL...
'Cause what they do, In Washington...
They just takes care of NUMBER ONE
An' NUMBER ONE ain't YOU!...
You ain't even NUMBER TWO!!

A little quote from my old pal Frank.

Edited by Doomkid

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Are we really going to get into the whole wealth inequality thing now? Derek Chauvin didn't kill George Floyd because of minimum wage, or Jeff Bezos or Nancy Pelosi's fucking refrigerator. He did it because he is a violent piece of shit who occupies a position in which being a violent piece of shit normally lets you escape the consequences. NOT EVERYTHING IS ABOUT YOU. I'm sorry for flipping out but there's a whole bunch of political sides trying to co-opt the movement and start chaos in the streets and it's infuriating to witness. 

 

Speaking of agitators, Seattle PD has been caught on camera breaking the windows of businesses, presumably to pin the blame on some other group. Pigs.

 

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Thread title: "All cops are bastards."

 

Within OP post: "All cops are not individually bad people, no."

 

So which is it? They're either bastards, or they're not.

 

You start the thread by saying they're bastards, then point out (rightly) that individual cops are unable to effect the change needed to bring long-term reform to the system. You also then claim that they're all responsible for holding that system up, which at best is a little dishonest. Pretty sure most cops don't go on their beat seeing "Oh boy, I sure hope I uphold our right to slapjack minorities today!" Pretty sure most of them just want to do their eight hours and go home like most of us. (Well, those of us still working under this pandemic, but I digress.)

 

The simple fact is that it's not as simple as "All cops are bastards," nor as simple as "all cops are not individually bad people." It's a complex issue, one that's rooted in our biases and prejudices that have basically been around ever since one group of people decided they could subjugate another group of people. Before it was minorities, it was people of other nations, or religions, or what-have-you. Tribalism has been around as long as society has, pure and simple.

 

But at the same time, the alternative is basically every man for themself, and then a LOT more cities would look like Minneapolis, DC, etc.

 

One thing I have noticed: There are little reports about how some cops are actually supporting the protestors. Cops who lower their batons and walk with the protesters, or take a knee in solidarity. That's a little different from most of the reports you hear from most of these riots.

 

I do think change will happen, eventually. But like how racial tensions were in this country during the civil rights era, and how they've gotten worse under Trump just when we thought they were moving forward under Obama, it's gonna get worse before it gets better.

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7 minutes ago, Mr. Freeze said:

Are we really going to get into the whole wealth inequality thing now? Derek Chauvin didn't kill George Floyd because of minimum wage, or Jeff Bezos or Nancy Pelosi's fucking refrigerator. He did it because he is a violent piece of shit who occupies a position in which being a violent piece of shit normally lets you escape the consequences. NOT EVERYTHING IS ABOUT YOU. I'm sorry for flipping out but there's a whole bunch of political sides trying to co-opt the movement and start chaos in the streets and it's infuriating to witness. 

Obviously the main crux of the issue here is police brutality, but if you think income inequality (and moreover, general inequity under the current status quo, racial and otherwise) doesn't play into this at all, you are simply incorrect. Police violence is one of the many ways that an oppressive system.. Well, oppresses people. I'm sorry if you don't see it, but it's there either way.

 

One thing I have noticed: There are little reports about how some cops are actually supporting the protestors. Cops who lower their batons and walk with the protesters, or take a knee in solidarity. That's a little different from most of the reports you hear from most of these riots.

I've seen multiple instances of this and am so thankful for them. I just wish the clips of this kind of behavior were as common as the brutality ones. I'm not saying it isn't happening in multiple instances, it's just hard to look past all these recordings of brutality.

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If you have 10 bad cops and 90 good cops unwilling to do anything about the bad cops, you actually have 100 bad cops. You can be a bastard cop without being evil per se, but it doesn't make you good if you uphold the Blue Wall of Silence and defend your buddies at the expense of morality. It's a sliding scale. And it's not dishonest to say that cops hold up the system. They do because the police unions are the main protectors of their own, and every cop is a member of the police union. 

 

Quote

But at the same time, the alternative is basically every man for themself, and then a LOT more cities would look like Minneapolis, DC, etc.

 

Police reform =/ anarchy. There is a need for a police force. There is not a need for the militarized, "warrior"-style police that occupy the USA. 

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15 minutes ago, Mr. Freeze said:

If you have 10 bad cops and 90 good cops unwilling to do anything about the bad cops, you actually have 100 bad cops. You can be a bastard cop without being evil per se, but it doesn't make you good if you uphold the Blue Wall of Silence and defend your buddies at the expense of morality. It's a sliding scale. And it's not dishonest to say that cops hold up the system. They do because the police unions are the main protectors of their own, and every cop is a member of the police union. 

But that also assumes that those 90 good cops all know about what the 10 bad cops are doing, which is not exactly very likely. That's like saying that a military officer knows everything that goes on in their base. They don't. Not even the commandant.

 

Now, if someone knows what this bad cop is doing, then there may well be a complaint. If there isn't and they willingly turn a blind eye, then sure, lump them in. But we never hear about stuff that's internal investigations and stuff like that, so we can't even be sure how many cops are reported on. In the case of Chauvin, there was all sorts of failures, left, right, and center, and I'm quite sure some heads will roll when this is all said and done.

 

But you're basically equivocating things in a black-and-white way. Those 90 good cops may not know what those 10 bad cops are doing. They might not even know what ONE bad cop is doing. Your statement only flies if somehow every supposed good cop knows, somehow, that the bad egg is a bad egg.

 

Real life ain't that cut-and-dry.

 

15 minutes ago, Mr. Freeze said:

Police reform =/ anarchy. There is a need for a police force. There is not a need for the militarized, "warrior"-style police that occupy the USA. 

Well, unfortunately we've got some kooky ideas about guns, mostly fueled by a silly interpretation of an Amendement to the Constitution that has been functionally obsolete for almost 200 years now. But it's good that you see a need for a police force; now the problem can be more or less put down to "How do you make it work as best as it can, accepting that there's going to be some bad apples who abuse their power?"

 

That said, by and large, most police aren't exactly militarized. Most of them carry a service pistol, some may have tazers or batons, but in that sense it hasn't really changed much in at least the last fifty or sixty years at least. That's not much different from many other average beat cops across the world. It's not like every cop is a walking SWAT team member with tactical shotguns and flashbangs. And more and more of them are incorporating body cameras and other things that can hold individual officers to account, so it's becoming less and less possible to just walk around and think that since you're Johnny Law, everyone will bend to you.

 

Also, it's not like this concept isn't used in the rest of the world. Ever hear of the GIGN in France? The Emergency Response Team in Canada? One of the many Tactical Firearms Units in the UK?

 

It's not like a specially-armed tactical unit is a totally American concept. And it's not like over there every single cop is one of those, either.

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I come to this board for Doom, not more of this shit. It's pretty disrespectful to say that all cops are bastards don't you think? You better be damn thankful cops exist because the world would be worse without them. With no one to keep the peace, we descend into chaos. That doesn't excuse the actual bad cops from what they do, but saying all of them are bad just because some are is an obnoxious generalization.

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25 minutes ago, Dark Pulse said:

But that also assumes that those 90 good cops all know about what the 10 bad cops are doing, which is not exactly very likely. That's like saying that a military officer knows everything that goes on in their base. They don't. Not even the commandant.

 


Police officer is a job that will inevitably also attract a certain type of people who put "law and order" above everything else but see the "law" portion of it as a free pass to do as they like, and if those do not get weeded out because others keep silent, we have a massive problem on our hands.

 

I don't know how it is in real life but there's tons of movies out there where some distorted form of "honor" is presented that keeps those other cops from talking. And if that is really true, it is the actual problem.

 

Regarding the thread's title, that's extremely offensive. Most police officers are decent, normal people who aren't into this shit and care about their duty to society.

 

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24 minutes ago, Graf Zahl said:

 

Regarding the thread's title, that's extremely offensive. Most police officers are decent, normal people who aren't into this shit and care about their duty to society.

 


If that was true, then there wouldn't be all these dead and maimed civilians. And the few coppers who do actually try to root out the corruption and bad actors wouldn't be treated so shoddily.

The police are not here to protect you. Their role is to enforce private property. It is a role that attracts the worst kind of thug, the type who like to use state power as a shield and justification for their brutishness. This is reinforced by the selection and training process; here in the UK, they actually screen out applicants who display "too much" intelligence and initiative. Someone with genuinely good intentions and an admirable sense of civic duty might make it through the selection process regardless. In which case, the training and martial culture of the force will see to it that they either fall in line, or quit.

Cops here in the UK certainly aren't as brutal as their US counterparts, but they are still corrupt and racist and get up to heinous shit like marrying and having children with activists under false pretenses. You might say that was one individual, but no way was he working alone, or without the tacit approval of his superiors.

That is why people say ACAB. It's not about the individuals and their acts, they're just a symptom of a wider problem.

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52 minutes ago, Dark Pulse said:

But that also assumes that those 90 good cops all know about what the 10 bad cops are doing, which is not exactly very likely.

 

I highly doubt in a world with limitless social media and ambulance-chasing news reporting, that police officers wouldn't know what was going on in their department. As the saying goes, bad news has wings. You don't have to know every detail about someone to make a judgement on them...ever work in an office and someone tells you about the resident pain in the ass worker? It's the same in your average precinct, people know or learn quickly who the good and bad eggs are. 

 

52 minutes ago, Dark Pulse said:

now the problem can be more or less put down to "How do you make it work as best as it can, accepting that there's going to be some bad apples who abuse their power?"

 

I'm glad you asked! Here are a few ideas I think would get the ball rolling: 

 

1. REFORMED TRAINING. It takes 3 years on average for a law degree, but police training is typically six months or less. So in the span of two semesters, your average beat cop is given a gun and set loose. Police training not only needs to be longer and more in-depth, but also needs to emphasize conflict resolution and not this macho "warrior" mindset that is more appropriate for special forces. 

 

2. ASSIGN POLICE TO POLICE WORK ONLY. Cops aren't animal control, why are they being called for on loose animals? Cops aren't mental health experts, why are they called when someone is suicidal? Cops aren't working on behalf of homeless shelters, why are they sent after some poor dude on a sidewalk? Assign the right people to the right situation, and don't give people who's first instinct is to reach for a gun command of these affairs. 

 

3. EVISCERATE POLICE UNIONS. Outright dismantling of the unions is probably unrealistic given how entrenched they are. So we need the next best thing: oversight. The AFL-CIO should disassociate with the IUPA because it is clear and obvious the goals of the police union are opposed to serving the workers whom the labor movement was launched to protect. Seattle passed Ordinance 125315, which makes the SPD subject to civilian oversight regardless of what the IUPA wants. I think similar measures across the country would destroy the Blue Wall of Silence and make bad officers more subject to punishment. 

 

4. CREATE A DATABASE OF BAD APPLES. No more hopping towns and reapplying for police work. You get kicked out, you're done. 

 

52 minutes ago, Dark Pulse said:

That said, by and large, most police aren't exactly militarized.

 

The ACLU disagrees. So does Amnesty International. The Pentagon's 1033 Program allows law enforcement to request hardware and material from the military for their own usage. This includes a $1 million mobile command bus and a tank. 

 

It's not all hardware either: the use of SWAT teams for drug raids has grown to 62% of their total deployment, with their original purpose- engaging barricaded suspects and hostage situations- only deploying 7% of the time. Add to that the above "Warrior-style" training cops to kill and you see the blurring of the lines between the American Army and Police. 

 

I ask that anyone make a separate post for a point you want to argue because this is a wall of text that isn't shrinking anytime soon. 

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4 minutes ago, NoXion said:

The police are not here to protect you

 

Oh that's just the tip of the iceberg. Read up on these court cases and try not to vomit. 

 

OREGON V MATTHIASON - Police can lie about fingerprints

PEOPLE V JONES - Police can lie about DNA

MARYLAND V KING - Police can lie to obtain DNA

PEOPLE V MAYS - Police can lie about polygraph tests

PEOPLE V DOMINICK - Police can lie about witnesses

PEOPLE V SIMS - Police can lie about recording conversations

PEOPLE V STEGER - Police can lie about what will happen to your friends if you don't confess

PEOPLE V GURULE - Police can lie about evidence to force a confession to a lesser crime

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1 hour ago, Dark Pulse said:

Thread title: "All cops are bastards."

 

Within OP post: "All cops are not individually bad people, no."

 

So which is it? They're either bastards, or they're not.

 

You start the thread by saying they're bastards, then point out (rightly) that individual cops are unable to effect the change needed to bring long-term reform to the system. You also then claim that they're all responsible for holding that system up, which at best is a little dishonest. Pretty sure most cops don't go on their beat seeing "Oh boy, I sure hope I uphold our right to slapjack minorities today!" Pretty sure most of them just want to do their eight hours and go home like most of us. (Well, those of us still working under this pandemic, but I digress.)

 

The simple fact is that it's not as simple as "All cops are bastards," nor as simple as "all cops are not individually bad people." It's a complex issue, one that's rooted in our biases and prejudices that have basically been around ever since one group of people decided they could subjugate another group of people. Before it was minorities, it was people of other nations, or religions, or what-have-you. Tribalism has been around as long as society has, pure and simple.

 

But at the same time, the alternative is basically every man for themself, and then a LOT more cities would look like Minneapolis, DC, etc.

 

One thing I have noticed: There are little reports about how some cops are actually supporting the protestors. Cops who lower their batons and walk with the protesters, or take a knee in solidarity. That's a little different from most of the reports you hear from most of these riots.

 

I do think change will happen, eventually. But like how racial tensions were in this country during the civil rights era, and how they've gotten worse under Trump just when we thought they were moving forward under Obama, it's gonna get worse before it gets better.

 

I can totally understand the sentiment behind ACAB. But the phrasing/framing just falls into this trap going around in circles with "well actually not every single cop" and just ends up wasting everyone's time. The point is that American police as an institution is fundamentally broken. The entire way cops are recruited and trained, the decades of militarization, the larger judicial system and police unions shielding them from any accountability, etc. This is what really needs to be talked about and brought to light. The pathological behavior of individual cops are merely the symptoms.

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Posted (edited)

I just want to say something about the coppers taking a knee or walking with protesters. That's the kind of thing that definitely gets a nod from me, but if such gestures are not followed up with meaningful efforts to deal with the problem, then that is all they are - gestures - and we'll be back in this situation a few years hence.

Actually punishing cops who step over the line is a start, but the kind of changes mentioned by @Mr. Freeze also need to happen. Given the outcry over this particular tragedy, it does actually seem possible that the murderer will see justice this time. But my weary, cynical side warns me not to bet serious money on the prospect. I hope that part of me is wrong.

Although circumstances do seem to be quite different this time; this has gotten a lot more attention than other murders by cops in the recent past. So despite my cynicism, I have hope as well that this is a turning point.

Edited by NoXion

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1 hour ago, Graf Zahl said:

Regarding the thread's title, that's extremely offensive. Most police officers are decent, normal people who aren't into this shit and care about their duty to society.

 

You know, I would've agreed with this, had I not seen how shitty our cops really are after the events of the last year, where apparently they barely lift a finger if you get kidnapped, and don'tcha fucking dare call the cops when in need, if they're not in the mood to offer any help or you just have allegedly "pointless problems", they'll just literally curse you on the phone for "disturbing" them. Oh, and depending on the situation, they might also do nothing because they think you're "just bluffing".

 

Granted our police forces aren't quite as bad as what I've seen happening in the US, but they are mostly useless, which is not much of an improvement - if you have 50 actually horrible cops and 500 who are just useless, silent, refuse to speak or act against them, then you have 550 bad cops, and not just the 50 supreme trash ones. If you're not part of the solution, you are part of the problem. And no, these forces don't exist to protect the citizens either, that's just one of the biggest lies sold to us by the government.

Edited by seed

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My condolences to all those who died from this arbitrariness.

 

Something like in my country. I'm from Russia if you know.

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This shitty thread provides an unexpected opportunity to post this photo I took in Stockholm last year.

 

vmW6IOp.jpg

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If I were to hypothesize why this problem is so glaringly apparent in US, I'm willing to bet money the main overlooked factor are your lenient gun ownership laws. This coupled with glaring wealth inequality leads to gradual increase in criminality. High density of gun wielding criminals then leads to cops being thrown into more frequent violent situations and they have to be trained appropriately. More cops trained appropriately then leads to what you see now. None of your ideas about police reforms will work in the slightest, because they don't address core issues. 

 

 

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1 minute ago, Grazza said:

This shitty thread provides an unexpected opportunity to post this photo I took in Stockholm last year.

 

vmW6IOp.jpg


Not sure how this thread is shitty - people are actually discussing stuff, which is a vast improvement over the screaming matches being held on Facebook or Twitter. Not sure what your picture has to do with this thread either. Is it the ACAB sticker?

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Saying the entire thread is shitty almost comes across as condemning the people who want change, which is silly to me because the need for change - regardless of where any individual may be politically - is glaringly apparent.

 

I know that isn’t necessarily what Grazza is implying, but when you just say “dis sux” and provide no reasoning for the statement, all people can do is draw inferences..

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Some music history for you guys.


Anyway, some more on how cops are bastards.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/minneapolis-protest-riot-umbrella-man-george-floyd-a9539741.html

Every day, I hear about people spotting agent provocateurs in real life, or just by scouring over video material, undercover cops starting riots. They're literally performing psychological operations to control the media, to shift away blame from themselves.

The American police system is rotten to the core.

 

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I wonder how many people even question the ethics and methods of the police force before even joining.

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Posted (edited)

full support to all protestors and demonstrators
and particularly to black people right now risking their lives

and when it tips over into riots because of police escalation i still support it! you still have the right to be there and hardly anything is ever solved without violence

no support whatsoever to the police

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Being not from America, seeing how the George Floyd situation went out, the absolutely idiocy that these cops brought forward (And with the responsible already having multiple tickets under his boot that would see most already be suspended, so why not him?), seeing how utter pricks abuse the situation simply kick random people to smithereens 10 to 1, kicking them against the head and leaving them near dead. Is that even still about Floyd, or is that just pure anarchy disguised?

 

... Its so utterly, utterly bizarre. Its like a gravitional lens effect kicks in. A cop here is more seen as a pencil pusher that writees out tickets rather than that they just take up random folks and apply excessive violence to them and straight up murder them, and still have some form of authority.*

 

*I am reminded that in recent years, the case of Mitch Hendriquez comes to mind who passed away through a neck choke, but that case is a lot less clear cut than the Floyd situation. It raised a storm in the NL back then because it was an exceptional situation, whereas, looking at America, this kind of thing is much more normalized.

 

It never should have been normalized from the start. Even on a most basic humane level, you should not and do not stoop so low.

 

Utterly bizarre.

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I've been hearing stories of innocent black people being murdered by US police officers for as long as I can remember and it needs to end. It has been going on for far too damn long and these riots happening all across the states were inevitable. I'm just surprised they didn't happen sooner. The whole situation is eerily similar to the 1991 LA riots, only this time on a national scale. I've never seen anything like it. I want this to bring about some real change, but I can't help but be cynical given how much I've witnessed on this godforsaken rock in my almost 30 years of inhabiting it with barely anything changing.

 

Then again, I have also witnessed some real moves for social progress in the past, so who knows. One thing I do know is that Black Lives Matter.

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Is there any way to properly take control of a person who's being a determined delinquent idiot, other than violence? Sing a lullaby, give a candy maybe? This would work on more hypocritical age groups, but adults (no matter what their education level is) are going to keep believing their own thoughts and following their values. Recidivists do exist somehow, don't they? If the police's purpose is to keep up the law, they need actual force on top of the legal power they're given. Corrupt people on duty, mistakes, questionable accidents, etc. are a different thing. The only good solution to those would be, well, robots with an AI

 

And oops, the riots are (or were) focused on markets and private property, not police stations or some government organisations, as if the man's death gave the rioters the "green light" to wreck and steal stuff. That looks like plain intentional savagery, which will result in nothing but a vicious cycle. Enforcing your political position via robbery and destruction, isn't that what you call "terrorism"?

 

Anyway, i'll just take some more popcorn. The pace of the world going down the drain is increasing, i like it

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