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dsm

Ammo capacity

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Dumb question: How'd you like the ammo capacity to be like in Doom 3? Similar to the old Doom game (400 bullets max, 100 shells max, 100 rockets max and 600 cells max), a little different or completely different?

Personally, I just hope that there's a shitload of bullets for the chaingun, so that it doesn't end up like in Q2 where you can empty your ammo supply for the chaingun in less than thirty seconds. I want to be able to carry a lot of bullets (500 would be a nice, round number) so that I can use the chainy quite a bit >:-]

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Even 500 bullets wouldn't last very long when using the Quake 2 chaingun. It fires much too fast after it warms up. I think 400 or 500 would be good as long as the Doom 3 chaingun doesn't use up as quickly. By the way, will there be a backpack in Doom 3?

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The original Doom ammo counts are a bit overdone. They make sense if you have to face big hordes of monsters, or if you fight extremely resistant monsters like the Cyberdemon in Doom with it´s 4000 or so health points. Things like that will be different in Doom3, so a more reduced ammo capacity would probably fit better.

I would vote for 50 rockets max, 50 grenades (if there hopefully is a grenadelauncher and not just hand grenades), 100 shells, 400 bullets, 100 cells.

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Yea i think they could tone down the ammo ammounts a bit i meen when i go hunting carrying more then 25 shotgun shells is kind of a burden nevermind all the shit hes carrying

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You can hold 999 bullets in the alpha.

OH WAIT I REVEALED HIDDEN INFORMATION NOW I MUST SUFFER O' DEATH.

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Fredrik said:

You can hold 999 bullets in the alpha.

OH WAIT I REVEALED HIDDEN INFORMATION NOW I MUST SUFFER O' DEATH.


ARGH

/me casts you into the Netherealm

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Back on topic...

Ammo capacity in D3 being like Doom wouldn't bother me, I think that limiting the chaingun ammo makes you think much more carefully about when you use it and to make you count your shots, thus adding to the suspense.

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Ichor said:

Even 500 bullets wouldn't last very long when using the Quake 2 chaingun. It fires much too fast after it warms up. I think 400 or 500 would be good as long as the Doom 3 chaingun doesn't use up as quickly. By the way, will there be a backpack in Doom 3?

The Doom 3 chaingun had better have a firing rate AT LEAST as high as the Q2 Chainy. I hate slow chainguns.
And even if 500 bullets won't last long it'll still last longer than Q2's meager 300 bullets. Oh and I hope there's a backpack in D3, just for the sake of nostalgia, besides, getting the backpack after running about with a lower ammo capacity was also kind of nice imo.

The original Doom ammo counts are a bit overdone. They make sense if you have to face big hordes of monsters, or if you fight extremely resistant monsters like the Cyberdemon in Doom with it´s 4000 or so health points. Things like that will be different in Doom3, so a more reduced ammo capacity would probably fit better.

I would vote for 50 rockets max, 50 grenades (if there hopefully is a grenadelauncher and not just hand grenades), 100 shells, 400 bullets, 100 cells.

I'm not interested in the ammo capacity making sense, I just want it not to be unsatisfactory, which I think a low ammo capacity tends to be - I find it VERY annoying if I can't carry very much ammo (as was the case with some of the heavier weapons in HL). Oh and while it's probably ok with the rockets/grenades thing only being 50, I still want bullets to be as high a number as possible without being too high (bullets don't take up an awful lot of space - you can easily carry 600 7.62 calibre bullets alongside a lot of other equipment).

Ammo capacity in D3 being like Doom wouldn't bother me, I think that limiting the chaingun ammo makes you think much more carefully about when you use it and to make you count your shots, thus adding to the suspense.

I just prefer Chaingun ammo to be rare at first (then much more frequent later in the game), but then you'd also be able to carry a lot of it. As I've already pointed out (indirectly though), I am unhappy about Q2's chaingun because it takes no time to stock up to full ammo, then a minute later you can end up having emptied the weapon on a couple enemies. True, you should be careful about when to use it, but the ammo capacity should NOT be too limited or it'll just get plain annoying - I want certain rewarding situations where I can be allowed run wild with the chaingun and I can't really do that in Q2 because the ammo runs out too fast.

And to all you lamers: You may kindly die /me begins deleting lame posts while scowling evilly at a number of doomers responsible for these.

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dsm said:

I'm not interested in the ammo capacity making sense, I just want it not to be unsatisfactory, which I think a low ammo capacity tends to be - I find it VERY annoying if I can't carry very much ammo (as was the case with some of the heavier weapons in HL).


I meant it should make sense from a gameplay point of view, so just what you´re saying, if you can´t carry much ammo it can be annoying. But on the other hand, if you can carry too much ammo it can spoil the gameplay a bit.

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Tetzlaff said:

I meant it should make sense from a gameplay point of view, so just what you´re saying, if you can´t carry much ammo it can be annoying. But on the other hand, if you can carry too much ammo it can spoil the gameplay a bit.

True true, that's why I won't mind having rockets and grenades being just 50 max. But stuff like machinegun ammo should be something you can carry in rather large quantities - I suggested 500 bullets because you can still run out of ammo relatively fast with the chaingun but not too fast. And 100 shells is a good basic too.
600 energy cells like in the original would be kinda nice imo, so that there will also be plenty of opportunity to use at both the plasma rifle and the BFG. I don't want the "best" weapons to be something you rarely use and I think that id has done fine so far (except for Quake 1 - you had far too little ammo for the lightning gun and you rarely ever used it because of this).
Just gimme lots of ammo for fast-firing weapons and I'll be happy.

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Shaviro said:

Yes.

How d'you know? Where did you hear/read that?

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Fredrik said:

You can hold 999 bullets in the alpha.

OH WAIT I REVEALED HIDDEN INFORMATION NOW I MUST SUFFER O' DEATH.


Uh.... No. Talk to me on IRC... I have a screen of the machinegun holding more than that.

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I think that 50 rockets is too unrealistic. Maybe you can carry like 10 rockets max, but they're really powerful. In the original half of the monsters would take a few rockets to finish off, but I'd prefer it if it were more realistic. I mean it's a rocket!! It makes a great big explosion! It would be a bit more fun to give the rocket launcher much more OOMPH but to even it out only be able to carry little ammo so it becomes the weapon you only whip out when you want to do serious damage to a boss monster or something.

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Warchief Marcus said:

I think that 50 rockets is too unrealistic. Maybe you can carry like 10 rockets max, but they're really powerful. In the original half of the monsters would take a few rockets to finish off, but I'd prefer it if it were more realistic. I mean it's a rocket!! It makes a great big explosion! It would be a bit more fun to give the rocket launcher much more OOMPH but to even it out only be able to carry little ammo so it becomes the weapon you only whip out when you want to do serious damage to a boss monster or something.

NO THANKS, I don't want Doom 3 to be a total Half Life ripoff. And about carrying 50 rockets being unrealistic, well, that depends on the size of the rockets.
If you imagine rockets that are about 12 cm long and max 2 wide then you'd have room enough for up to a hundred.
Of course, D3's an id game so we're going to see ridiculously large rockets in it unfortunately (unfortunately because it'll make you realism freaks go on and on about how unrealistic D3 is, annoying the crap outta guys like me).

I can accept a max of fifty rockets and no less - everything below that is just too damn annoying imho.

One reason why I stick with id's games is that they usually have this arcade style with a rocket launcher that fires relatively fast (while not being too powerful) and comes with a a decent ammo capacity (RtCW being an exception from this rule, but id wasn't the company to directly develop this one either). This way it's not as much a "disaster" or a "wasted opportunity" if you miss with one of the rockets - in Half life or in RtCW, this is very much the case and it annoys the shit outta me if I don't score a direct hit with a rocket because then I'll have to do things the hard (and very often slow and painful) way as I have to save the last two rockets for next time I encounter something nasty.

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Hicks said:

will you like that the doom guy walks slowly when he have a lot of weapons and ammo?

Why would I like that? Anything that reduces the fun and adds to the annoyance factor should be avoided.

Personally, I don't believe that id would step away from their up-to-fifty rockets arcade style rocket launcher, but of course you'll never know.

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AirRaid said:

Uh.... No. Talk to me on IRC... I have a screen of the machinegun holding more than that.

Seeing as 999 is a subset of any number bigger than 999, I am right and you're wrong when you say 'no'.

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dsm said:

NO THANKS, I don't want Doom 3 to be a total Half Life ripoff. And about carrying 50 rockets being unrealistic, well, that depends on the size of the rockets.
If you imagine rockets that are about 12 cm long and max 2 wide then you'd have room enough for up to a hundred.
Of course, D3's an id game so we're going to see ridiculously large rockets in it unfortunately (unfortunately because it'll make you realism freaks go on and on about how unrealistic D3 is, annoying the crap outta guys like me).

I can accept a max of fifty rockets and no less - everything below that is just too damn annoying imho.

One reason why I stick with id's games is that they usually have this arcade style with a rocket launcher that fires relatively fast (while not being too powerful) and comes with a a decent ammo capacity (RtCW being an exception from this rule, but id wasn't the company to directly develop this one either). This way it's not as much a "disaster" or a "wasted opportunity" if you miss with one of the rockets - in Half life or in RtCW, this is very much the case and it annoys the shit outta me if I don't score a direct hit with a rocket because then I'll have to do things the hard (and very often slow and painful) way as I have to save the last two rockets for next time I encounter something nasty.


So you want rockets that are just slighly larger than shotgun shells?
Something like this 70mm modle would be more reasonable.

If the rocket launcher magazine were designed like a 3X3 matrix of 9 rockets, and the mag was the top half of the launcher it could make for an ok balance. 9 shots would make for a decent volly of rockets between reloads. Of course if you want the classic look you could always go with one of these

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dsm said:
One reason why I stick with id's games is that they usually have this arcade style with a rocket launcher that fires relatively fast (while not being too powerful) and comes with a a decent ammo capacity (RtCW being an exception from this rule, but id wasn't the company to directly develop this one either). This way it's not as much a "disaster" or a "wasted opportunity" if you miss with one of the rockets - in Half life or in RtCW, this is very much the case and it annoys the shit outta me if I don't score a direct hit with a rocket because then I'll have to do things the hard (and very often slow and painful) way as I have to save the last two rockets for next time I encounter something nasty.


But... How often would you miss with rockets? There big, fast, and make large explosions... I for one, really hope id goes for the "less ammo, more damage" approach. When you think about it, doom rocket launcher was about as powerful as the super shotgun. (3 shots of either could take down a mancubus), the rocket launcher was mainly used for sniping. Maybe instead, they could have an explosive shotgun with many rounds, but less damage, as well as a rocket launcher with few rounds, but lots of damage. Just a thought...

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Ct_red_pants said:

But... How often would you miss with rockets? There big, fast, and make large explosions... I for one, really hope id goes for the "less ammo, more damage" approach. When you think about it, doom rocket launcher was about as powerful as the super shotgun. (3 shots of either could take down a mancubus), the rocket launcher was mainly used for sniping. Maybe instead, they could have an explosive shotgun with many rounds, but less damage, as well as a rocket launcher with few rounds, but lots of damage. Just a thought...

Well that sounds fine, except that I know my preference and I know that I cannot abide the Half-life style where you only have around max ten rockets to do good with. It' really simple - I just don't like it that way, see my other posts for an explanation why I don't like it. I'd cringe if something like that shows up in Doom 3, oh and I may not miss the enemies a lot in the old Dooms, but this is Doom 3 - the monsters are both faster and more furious than before, which greatly enhances the possibility of missing.

I know that in HL I often miss targets (because the rl never works the way I expect) and it sucks because I only have like five of 'em. Same goes with the grenades. In Quake 2 I often miss targets because the enemies are keen on ducking and if id has enemies that can dodge slow projectiles like rockets, then it'd be a nuisance.

Oh yeah, and something I forgot to look at before:

In the original half of the monsters would take a few rockets to finish off, but I'd prefer it if it were more realistic. I mean it's a rocket!! It makes a great big explosion!

Pardon me, but you don't know what you're talking about (which is all fine and good I don't always know what I'm talking about either on some subjects) - rockets only make large explosions in movies. Anti-personnel rockets nowadays usually send out a shower of nails - they don't explode in a big flower of fire. Anti-tank weapons make a flash that looks not completely unlike the Doom rocket explosions.

Then there are of course *some* rockets which make large explosions, but as the two examples above state, that is not always the case. And I could easily think up a legitimate excuse to why the rocket explosions are small in Doom (of course, that would prove extremely hard if id go with their standard motorcycle sized rl which I'm sure that they'll do judging by the weapons we've seen so far). And the demons that take a couple of rockets to kill are..well...demons so naturally they're likely a little more solid than you'd expect (properly even more solid than a heavily armoured tank).

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Anti-personnel rockets nowadays

What the hell does the behaviour today's rockets, and any weapon for that matter, have to do with the weapons in DOOM 3? id better just make things fancy. A large explosion is obviously much cooler than a small one.

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Fredrik said:

What the hell does the behaviour today's rockets, and any weapon for that matter, have to do with the weapons in DOOM 3? id better just make things fancy. A large explosion is obviously much cooler than a small one.

I was just countering the claim that rockets make big explosions.

A large explosion is obviously cooler than a smaller one? Depends on how it's used. You're right, if you blow up a large mega processor then a large explosion is cool, but I don't give a shit about them if they come from my rocket launcher because I find that it makes the rocket launcher unbalanced. If you add all those measures about extra slow reload times and other weaknesses then the rl just becomes annoying to use (like the HL one is) and if you don't then the rl is unbalanced which is also a bad thing from a gameplay perspective, therefore I prefer the arcade style because that never fails to satisfy me.

What I DO want to see is some additionally large explosions caused by machinery or other stuff which blows up.

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if doomguy plan to cary bout 50 rockets, and bunch of weapons, why he dont employ varlet (um or weapon carrier, dont know english well). Where he plan to put those rockets? maybe ammo cart could solve problem?

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zzz said:

if doomguy plan to cary bout 50 rockets, and bunch of weapons, why he dont employ varlet (um or weapon carrier, dont know english well). Where he plan to put those rockets? maybe ammo cart could solve problem?


What problem?

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It's a game, it doesn't need to have every single realism detail in order. Granted, nice touches such as fairly realistic physics is great because it enhances the overall visual quality and feel of the game, but when you start insisting on making ammo capacity realistic (which is next to impossible), then it'll suck.

A typical soldier can carry about three medium-sized weapons - this is not counting small weapons like knives, pistols, uzi-sized SMGs and brass knuckles. Now, could someone tell me how the Hell a marine is supposed to carry a shotgun, a double-barrelled shotgun, an smg/assault rifle, a bigass chaingun, a (most likely) bigass rocket launcher, a (most likely) fairly large plasma rifle and a (most certainly) bigass BFG all at once?
It's not possible now is it?
So stfu about those 50 rockets and let's just hope that whatever id does, they make a kickass rocket launcher that looks cool and causes nice explosive effects, whether big explosions or smaller, and that the weapon will be fun to use and not annoying in any way (except for being damaging to the player if not used with at least a slight bit of caution).

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I agree with DSM completely. Realism should not disturb gameplay, like in CS and the likes.

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