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AverageDoomguy

Brutal Doom creator speaks about past controversies

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1 hour ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

Off-topic:

Spoiler

Ill address this point by point:

  • This is said in jest.
  • I think you are well aware what i mean when i say that. Namely, any topic regarding BD ends up being heavy on the strong responses. And i can't say its entirely unjustified.
  • I have been here for the latter of 10 years already, just not as a user. I very much do not and did not intent to write it off as that i know things better, and i apologize if it comes off that way.

 

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So first things first... There is quite a lot to discuss when it comes to the art that has been put forth, such as where all the assets came from, who created said assets, who has been credited properly for the creation of said assets and who hasn't (for the longest time anyway), and the cherry on top: Who has been making money off of the mod we're discussing here, and who hasn't gotten any money despite being a contributor to the project (credited or not), etc... And that begs not only the question how it reflects on Mark as a person, but it also puts the art itself into question by virtue of it not being just one single person's creation entirely.

Absolutely. I do like to stress that the mechanics on display are what i can appreciate in Mark's work - That is, things like Imps jumping at you, kicking, or other mechanics. Those to me are aspects that work well. 

 

As far as asset creation and creditation goes, did Mark not stick a Credits screen somewhere, but hidden? A major problem with this and the crediting in general is that there is often (perhaps always) a catch: An explanation as to why asset X was not credited, or why a credits screen was only put in after the fact. These are things i do not agree with: You give credit where credit is due. This essentially speaks double for this community, where asset stealing despite rather clear licenses (often generous aswell!) is a common occurence. (Thinks of Grezzo 2)
 

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Also, the art on display is, if I read your comment here correctly, a reflection of Mark's "edgy-comedy-persona", or it can at least be considered such, and when viewed under that lens, then art and artist are inseparable with regards to the bigger picture. You can, of course, discuss both individually and sidestep Mark's persona "mechanically", but nobody is obligated to do so.

I think that the controverses made by Mark, which are summed up in this thread, definitely pertain to his persona, yes. In fact, how much of the art is actually his? I think you are quite right in that aspect by considering both the art and the artist altogether: The made controverses by Mark are an act of his as an artist and concern his (Or others) art.

 

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Next up the image you say Mark has been trying to establish: If you actually clicked the video and gave it a listen for just a few minutes, then you'd come across the important detail Mark puts forth as an explanation for his "brand of humour". And you know what? I'm actually willing to give him the benefit of the doubt when it comes to edgy jokes like that one infamous comment that was part of Brutal Doom's Plasma Rifle code. But one thing I'm not ever going to buy into, language barriers and 4chan-piss-takes be damned, is the whole situation that revolved around the part where he supposedly told a person to kill themselves, because A) that's not what happened, and B) what Mark actually did to the best of my knowledge was way worse than just dropping a "KYS" on an internet forum and calling it a day.

I am aware of the aftermath. Te takes thereafter are definitely more indicative of characterization than the controverses spell out. As far as humour goes, beyond the obvious subjectivity: If an entire room cannot read the humour of a supposed joke, then perhaps its not percieved as one. This is often what i felt when reading the controverses.
 

Edited by Redneckerz

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10 minutes ago, daisuki milk said:

it was a joke. not the funniest or most clever joke in the world but a joke regardless. i never DEMANDED he apologize for creating a mod

 

Alright then, sorry in this case, but I genuinely thought it was a serious demand because, believe it or not, some people actually ARE that petty and entitled.

 

10 hours ago, Edward850 said:

But see that's the thing, why isn't/wasn't he saying this to everyone else? This shouldn't be stuff left to weird confessionals, especially considering he's not making all this stuff himself (it actually makes me wonder if he's actually being honest about telling this to "a friend"). And then there's the weird hypocrisies he has, complaining about people taking his work when his work was taking everyone else's:

 

But have you also considered that maybe he didn't want to issue a public apology because people just wouldn't give a rat's ass about it in the first place? Yes, I agree, mistakes were made at the time, and I don't think anyone is seriously defending that anyway, and an explanation should have come shortly afterwards, but if people don't even want to hear it at all, then why should he do it to begin with? Just to give those expecting or demanding one a false sense of security and make them feel better about themselves because the person they hate gave them even more satisfaction?

 

No can do.

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Just now, seed said:

 

Alright then, sorry in this case, but I genuinely thought it was a serious demand because, believe it or not, some people are ARE that petty and entitled.

it's fine, my reply was kind of blunt and rude so I'm sorry too

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24 minutes ago, seed said:

But have you also considered that maybe he didn't want to issue a public apology because people just wouldn't give a rat's ass about it in the first place?

Certainly he could, but then why must I be forced to give him any respect for his indifference of trying? 

If he wants to show he's changed, it's on him to show it. Frankly if he's still acting the same in 2019 as he always has as I showed, and that he can't even muster an apology but just excuses then I'm not exactly convinced by any metric. 

Edited by Edward850

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8 minutes ago, Edward850 said:

Certainly he could, but then why must I be forced to give him any respect for the indifference of trying? 

 

Certainly you aren't, but given the circumstances, I personally find the fact that he tried at least to make amends much better and more suitable for the situation than empty excuses and apologies, since, judging by the people's response in this topic and other similar topics that surfaced in the not-so-distant past here, wouldn't have changed a damn thing, just trigger more "fuck this guy/who cares about what Mark says" comments from those who hated and never cared for him anyway. And again, this way he also avoided giving those who love dogpiling on him at every opportunity exactly what they wanted. Actions speak louder than words anyway.

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tbh when someone's calling card in a community is being the dickhead who doesn't apologize it's ostracization time

doing that devil's advocate act for the benefit of an edgy self-hyping asset thief is doing yrself dirty

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16 minutes ago, seed said:

I personally find the fact that he tried at least to make amends

But he hasn't, hence this entire discussion. He hasn't actually tried anything, he's brushed it all off with excuses and given no actual effort nor promise to make amends. 

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3 minutes ago, printz said:

I wonder what @Sergeant_Mark_IV thinks about id Software using his idea when they made Doom 2016.

 

What ideas? You mean the glory kills? AFAIK they were already working on those before BD had them, not to mention that DNF had those even before either of them.

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37 minutes ago, yakfak said:

doing that devil's advocate act for the benefit of an edgy self-hyping asset thief is doing yrself dirty

 

Yeah, sure thing.

 

I definitely love being Mark's "shill". Best of luck with that if it makes you feel better.

 

26 minutes ago, Edward850 said:

But he hasn't, hence this entire discussion. He hasn't actually tried anything, he's brushed it all off with excuses and given no actual effort nor promise to make amends. 

 

But didn't he, like, credited those whose assets ended up used in BD originally without any mention of who made them, for instance? Or purge them if not?

 

Or has he not done even this bare minimum? I'll admit I'm not very familiar with Mark's past - mainly because I'm not exactly interested in washing someone else's dirty laundry in public.

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29 minutes ago, seed said:

But didn't he, like, credited those whose assets ended up used in BD originally without any mention of who made them, for instance? Or purge them if not?

He did start crediting people (in a credits page people rarely see upfront but okay), slowly and eventually. However it's still in contention if everyone was, every once in a while there'd be another person to popup and say they weren't, which is what happens when you take a bunch of stuff without caring where, he had no idea where he got everything from. 

 

That's not the only issue, keep in mind. There was the racism, the attempt to coax someone into killing themselves (thread long since purged on the ZDoom forums) and the blatantly dickery to everyone else in the community like with the moddb reward debacle that was only in December of 2017. None of this was just one simple thing. 

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7 hours ago, Edward850 said:

He did start crediting people (in a credits page people rarely see upfront but okay), slowly and eventually. However it's still in contention if everyone was, every once in a while there'd be another person to popup and say they weren't, which is what happens when you take a bunch of stuff without caring where, he had no idea where he got everything from. 

 

Can't say I'm surprised, that is indeed the consequence of just taking a bunch of stuff from places and tossing it into your mod without keeping track of who did what. My question here comes mostly from the fact that him taking stuff and also not crediting the authors was a conscious decision, or he just took it without thinking of repercussions, as dumb as it may be. But depending on multiple factors, such as age, maybe he just wasn't clearly thinking at the time.

 

I'm saying this mainly because in retrospect, back when I was a kid I did A LOT of dumb shit myself that I simply didn't care for at the time, but being an adult now I can clearly see how shitty were some of these things. Needless to say that they most definitely make me bury myself 100 ft into the ground everytime I think about them - and wonder how I could be so supremely stupid. But regrets are pointless, I am where I am now, and have most definitely learned my lesson, the hard way no less. My point here is, that people tend to do dumb shit when they're not thinking clearly (or maturely), and sometimes they realize this only when it's already too late to make changes/improvements/amends. You can only understand this if you've been there yourself, like I was, for reference. That doesn't mean I've learned nothing since then, quite the contrary actually, as I've already stated, and I've made damn sure to never repeat them ever again.

 

I know I probably just gave some petty losers a reason to dogpile on me too now, but that's exactly the last thing I could possibly care about: what internet randoms think about me. To those I have only one thing to tell: Get lost. Most decent people actually do learn from their mistakes and avoid repeating them, and experience tells me that those who toot themselves as the highest moral example always hide the darkest and shittiest of secrets, always and always. But you probably don't care anyway, because having not committed similar mistakes already makes you feel more powerful and having the "moral high ground" above other so that you can boost your flat ego even more. You are nothing but a broken, empty shell with a mask who lives for drama and crapiness, the sick gratification these experiences offer you, and pathetic vendettas too. You should probably seek help as a result.

 

7 hours ago, Edward850 said:

That's not the only issue, keep in mind. There was the racism, the attempt to coax someone into killing themselves (thread long since purged on the ZDoom forums) and the blatantly dickery to everyone else in the community like with the moddb reward debacle that was only in December of 2017. None of this was just one simple thing. 

 

I know, I've heard about these incidents as well, and unlike the assets theft, these are a lot more inexcusable. Telling someone else to kill themselves - I've heard that the person in question was also depressed, which makes it all the more aggravating -, especially if it wasn't just a "KYS" like all the cool kids on the internet do these days, is simply being a lowly, pathetic human. I've seen that ModDB debacle as well at the time it was fresh, but memory is too fuzzy to still be able to tell what exactly happened there.

 

At any rate, what my point here was the whole time, was that after all this time I think we're all better off simply ignoring Mark and not encourage more drama every time his name shows up. Looking at the topics where this has happened before, it encourages only more hatred and pettiness against someone who doesn't deserve the said attention in the slightest. Better off doing something more productive instead of shitting on crappy people who don't learn anything from what they're doing, should all of this be true. By stirring more drama they only get more and more unwanted attention. Don't even acknowledge their existence anymore and move on.

Edited by seed

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Does Mark go around and make threads about releases of Brutal Doom anymore? He doesn't. Then why should we go around and try to make threads about his Brutal Doom controversies?

 

Mark's current focus is also no longer on Brutal Doom; he is currently focusing on VietDoom and his new game; he already said that v22 would be his last Brutal Doom release.

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4 hours ago, wheresthebeef said:

Forgiveness is a trait everyone should learn and practice

A person has to be sorry for their actions before they can be forgiven 

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22 minutes ago, Bridgeburner56 said:

A person has to be sorry for their actions before they can be forgiven 

 

Not if people aren't even willing to listen in the first place, in which case why even bother, as indicated by the responses in this topic and others than came before it. He's better off apologizing to the people he actually hurt rather than issue a more formal apology or whatever, if he is to do it at all, but even then, I highly doubt its effectiveness. Some just love stroking their egos a little bit too much.

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On 6/11/2020 at 2:39 AM, seed said:

"Silence the discord... "

 

I mean, I'd rather be brained by a pipe-wielding Annelid Hybrid than talk about BD at all.

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1 hour ago, Sergeant_Mark_IV said:

This happened on PB's Discord, not mine. No such event ever happened on BD's Discord. Unless you seriously believe I have any relationship with these guys.

If ceasing wrong behavior and making efforts for not repeating it counts as a valid apology, then I already apologized. Unless for you it means something like making a video crying out in tears and begging for forgiveness to please lying people like you who tries to destroy lives as a sport. Maybe killing myself would make you feel better? If this is the case, sorry kid, but I'm afraid this won't ever happen even in your wildest dreams.

Eddward, I do not ask you (or any other person that hates me) to like me, or play the mods/games I make. I am not asking you to laugh at the jokes I did. I am asking you to cease with such criminal defamation campaign and these ridiculous stories that I am a "neo-nazi skinhead that beats minorities and caused a toddler to commit suicide and scams designers out of their resources" that you have created by propagating erroneous, exaggerated, and malicious information. When did I get banned from ZDF? It has been like what, 8 years? And 8 years later nothing changed. You people go out everywhere on social media trying to convince everyone that I am evil incarnate. You have put more time trying to spread lies and making other people hate an internet person you don't like than the US military has spent participating in both World Wars combined. This is not healthy behavior, and you should get your head checked. Try putting that effort in making some mod or map pack people will actually enjoy.

No, this happened with Blackmetalchainsaw or whoever. The fuckin lady admin aped out on someone and all the channels were deleted. Wanna know how? Because I'm in direct contact with Veronica, who filled me in after I fucking dipped to avoid the chaos. Look buddy, I have no problem with you. I'm just telling a funny story on how your discord got shit up. Whatever bro, I'm sorry that you're being witchhunted for dumb shit, I hope people can move past that.

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On 6/11/2020 at 5:24 PM, seed said:

 

Not if people aren't even willing to listen in the first place, in which case why even bother, as indicated by the responses in this topic and others than came before it. He's better off apologizing to the people he actually hurt rather than issue a more formal apology or whatever, if he is to do it at all, but even then, I highly doubt its effectiveness. Some just love stroking their egos a little bit too much.

 

Minor aside, if anyone is willing to entertain it; This is something I have thought about. If someone does wrong and they do not own up to it, they will obviously be looked down upon. Thing is, from what I know of people in general, I feel that if someone does own up and attempts to apologize, if one has no connection to the person, that one is more likely to double down on their assertions and call for penal actions against the accused, if possible. One may or may not very deserve it depending on the context but that is not what my point is. I mean to opine my understanding of people.

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@Sergeant_Mark_IV So your post is too long for me to do a quote breakdown, I'll make a general outline instead with the main sticking point. But first, thank you for responding.

 

I should note that your post is frankly bit hostile which is already one of my complaints about you, I'll accept this may be self-fulfilling prophecy, but as always it can never hurt to be the bigger person if you have improved as a person as you claim.

 

Be aware that I was around these events when they occured, this is not defamation of character by legal definition, I am not misrepresenting research, I am recall events that I personally saw. These are my viewpoints of these events as they occurred over the years, and thus from my understanding. You may disagree with that, but disagreeing with what we interpreting events to be as long as we both consider the events to be within in our recellection is not defamation. I am not lying when I saying these things, I am pointing out events as I recall them.

 

As for your finer points, we have reached a bit of an impasse. I do not recall these apologies you made, they would be of a particular curiosity seeing as you still somehow banned for ZDF anyway, suggesting repeated infections. However these threads are as you say, nuked, so there is very little we can do to compare review what occurred anymore. Hence the impasse. As such, it would not hurt to make these apologies more permanent here.

 

3 hours ago, Sergeant_Mark_IV said:

If anything, blame ZDF moderation for never caring about standardizing content crediting methods. Seems like most mods tends to place credits on the thread, which is a bad method because it's lost if the mod is re-hosted somewhere else.
If y'all really care this much about frankensprites made in a few minutes, you should start enforcing some hardcore rules over it.

This is a rather curious thing, blaming the ZDF moderation to do something you should have done from the start. Sure, it is somewhat of a long standing unwritten rule about community copyright and ownership which may have been confusing to you at the time, and heck I'll even agree that the ZDF moderation had strange priorities when it comes to enforcement of common sense rules. I couldn't really tell you if that's changed, I don't really go to ZDF anymore, but perhaps you can appreciate the problem that it's useless complaining about this to me. I am not in charge of any moderation, I am simply one of the people vocal about your lax reception at the time to having it fixed originally. It took too long is my key point here.

 

3 hours ago, Sergeant_Mark_IV said:

The "friend" I told that "most of the credit should go to the Doom community and Kaiser" is nobody else but Andrew Hulshult. And it was not a random occasion, it was for the victory speech in case of winning the Fan Creation of the Year at the SXSW 2017 Gaming Awards. which I couldn't attend personally because I didn't had money to travel to the US.  This is a documented fact recorded on video.

So you've got me here, I'll apologies for this as I wasn't aware you did this. However, the reason why I didn't know this was because this segment was unbroadcasted when they did the Game Awards Livestream. Your accreditation went completely unbroadcasted and thus it seems not a lot of people know about it, and this video seems to be the only mention of it at all, so a rather obscure source. I work with Kaiser and not even he knew about it, which is especially odd given he's the person that should of.

 

3 hours ago, Sergeant_Mark_IV said:

Fuck, I wonder how many times you told somebody to kys over 4chan or online game servers, but it's only a problem when I did it.

None. I don't even go on 4chan. Telling people to kill themselves is a very strange thing to just blurt out, it's not a dedicated key on your keyboard one just casually presses. That's why others called you out on it, it's not considered the social norm, certainly not around here in any case.

 

3 hours ago, Sergeant_Mark_IV said:

Try putting that effort in making some mod or map pack people will actually enjoy.

Nah, I'm already too busy restoring games that people enjoy to work on mods.

Edited by Edward850

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18 minutes ago, Edward850 said:

Be aware that I was around these events when they occured, this is not defamation of character by legal definition, I am not misrepresenting research, I am recall events that I personally saw. These are my viewpoints of these events as they occurred over the years, and thus from my understanding. You may disagree with that, but disagreeing with what we interpreting events to be as long as we both consider the events to be within in our recellection is not defamation. I am not lying when I saying these things, I am pointing out events as I recall them.


Being around during the time the events occurred does not make you or anyone exempt from false reporting with malicious intent.
The malicious intent can be identified by the proportions of the stories caused by these reports. For example, people always refer to the user as a "kid", despite the fact that he claimed to be 18 years old at the time of the thread, which would make him just 2 years younger than me. And in no possible way defined as a "kid" in any country in the world. But the word "kid" is purposely used to increase the emotional charge of the event to make it look like I was some 30-something bullying a 12-year-old.
Another example is something I saw somewhere a long time I go, I can't recall exactly where, but I think it was SomethingAwful, NeoGaf, or a similar kind of forum, which somebody accused me of naming my map After the Holocaust to make fun of the jewish holocaust, and not the song by the same name by Nuclear Assault, related to doomsday and destruction. A such ridiculous story couldn't develop from a "somebody told me" cycle and could only be intentionally manufactured.

Add this to the fact of the Doom community in general being an epicenter of drama since forever (with also you having a known story grudges, to the point of even keeping an "evidence looker" for yourself), and I connect points.
 

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This is a rather curious thing, blaming the ZDF moderation to do something you should have done from the start.

I admitted my guilty for being laxed, but I made the observation that I was never even hinted at the importance of crediting custom sprites.
 

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So you've got me here, I'll apologies for this as I wasn't aware you did this.

Apology accepted. Also my apologies for the hostile tone of my answer.
 

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However, the reason why I didn't know this was because this segment was unbroadcasted when they did the Game Awards Livestream. Your accreditation went completely unbroadcasted and thus it seems not a lot of people know about it, and this video seems to be the only mention of it at all, so a rather obscure source. I work with Kaiser and not even he knew about it, which is especially odd given he's the person that should of.

No. They did it, you just missed. They also have an archived broadcast of the entire event. The award is given at the 1:33:00 mark.

 

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30 minutes ago, Sergeant_Mark_IV said:

No. They did it, you just missed. They also have an archived broadcast of the entire event. The award is given at the 1:33:00 mark.

I don't know how but I'm calling shenanigans on this one (not against you). The sticking point of the stream back in 2017 was nobody knew who won that category until after the stream ended and the website was soft-updated. This is just bizarre.

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8 hours ago, hypoactive said:

No, this happened with Blackmetalchainsaw or whoever. The fuckin lady admin aped out on someone and all the channels were deleted. Wanna know how? Because I'm in direct contact with Veronica, who filled me in after I fucking dipped to avoid the chaos. Look buddy, I have no problem with you. I'm just telling a funny story on how your discord got shit up. Whatever bro, I'm sorry that you're being witchhunted for dumb shit, I hope people can move past that.

What?

 

Are you mistaking Loismustdie555 for BMC and BD for PB? Because Lois was the guy who got the PB Discord completely nuked from existence. And if such a thing were to happen at the BD Discord, the news of the entire incident would spread to other Discords, which didn't happen. Heck, the original pinned message from 2017 in the bd_general channel is still there.

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On 6/18/2020 at 8:32 AM, Sergeant_Mark_IV said:

can you name any other Doom modder that gave credit of his work at the stage of a Gaming Industry Award?

 

tenor.gif

 

I don't have a horse in this race at all, I could give a damn less about the controversy because it's old as fuck, I just laughed at this stupid line rofl

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He's right though, I can only think of Tim Willits praising the modding work of Tim Willits. So Mark and Tim are a very exclusive club of important people.

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It seems to me that Brazillian modders & mappers have been historically cursed on Doomworld or just the Anglo side of Doom.  Misunderstandings, accusations and hateful rumors based on different conceptions of right and wrong have been common pitfalls even in pre-Brutal Doom times.

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54 minutes ago, Artman2004 said:

Is Sgt Mark IV gonna get banned on Doomworld too?

Why would he? He hadn't violated any rules here yet.

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