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digithead100

Do you like Doom platforming?

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So a while back I played Back to Saturn x Episode 1(great WAD) and I got pretty annoyed at map 31(Optical Hopscotch) because of this platforming section. Obviously Doom needs to have some platforming but having to perform really precise jumps and repeat entire sections because of one mistake can be kind of annoying. Maybe its just because I suck at it but does anyone legitimately look forward to platforming sections in classic Doom?

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In modern Doom games, it's one of the best mechanics. Classic Doom? Absolute dog shit.

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Posted (edited)

Platforming in a First-Person-Perspective has never been a good idea in my opinion as it's so much more difficult to judge distance, especially in older games like Half-Life that were notorious for it. Thankfully, what community maps I've played where it is present, people seem to use it sparingly.

Edited by Biodegradable

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Not in the original game lol.  The player is WAAAY too slide-y and has so little air control.  Nothing you couldn't probably overcome with practice, but it's so tedious that I don't feel it's worth it.

I do like it in Quake, though.  But there's almost no slide and you can stop on a dime mid-air, so it's a lot easier.

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i like doom platforming personally, i find it a fun thing in wads personally

 

I remember playing a lot of Doom Barracks Zone Coop on zdaemon years ago and trying to complete the gym area on map03 before anybody else in the server, sometimes i succeeded at it and it was fun

though were sometimes when a troll would join the server and shoot off people who trying to complete the gym jump course and that was really annoying, thats the only thing I didn't like

 

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I actually enjoy it and since jumping/crouching appeared in Doom source ports I don't think it's really been taken advantage of so I absolutely welcome any WAD that has jumping puzzles or mechanics that require a bit of platforming because Vanilla doom had you stuck firmly on the ground.

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Posted (edited)

I like platforming sections in classic Doom because they challenge me to be more deft with my movement and better familiarize myself with the physics of the game.

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I have no issue with platforming with the doom engine. I dunno why people bitch about it so much.

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11 hours ago, Remilia Scarlet said:

I do like it in Quake, though.  But there's almost no slide and you can stop on a dime mid-air, so it's a lot easier.

 

The other day I was thinking exactly this. In Quake it wasn't overdone and like you say you can stop on a dime. When my bro and I used to play Quake, we would say at the jumping parts, 'Now don't jump fucked up'.

 

11 hours ago, Biodegradable said:

Thankfully, what community maps I've played where it is present, people seem to use it sparingly.

 

I think using it sparingly is ideal.

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I think it's fun in moderation. It can add a bit of quiet time to a map for pacing purposes, or be used to conceal secrets.

 

I also find platforming interesting when it's used as a bonus to kick off an encounter like at the beginning of Plutonia MAP21. If you get it first-try, you're rewarded with a better position or additional resources, and if you miss you have to play the encounter normally, without that buff.

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Platforming is fine in doom, I've got some manner of movement-skill-check in many of the maps I made, and they range from gimmicky to very straight forward, with lots of variation in terms of difficulty and forgiveness. Sure, you can make platforming extremely hard, or even inconvenient to a point where playability suffers (like for example "blind jumps"), but many of the harder platforming sections I've come across or built myself are usually pretty clear cut with regards to where you're supposed to be going and how you're supposed to get there.

 

Arguments such as "momentum makes platforming in doom bad" is something I've heard a lot, and after having played and made quite a few platforming sections myself, I feel comfortable in saying that these takes are best dismissed on sight, due to how easily they can be proven false. All it takes to come to an abrupt stop on a 32x32 (or 16x16) pillar is pressing "back", ideally before you even make contact with the next platform so that you decrease your speed at the earliest possible time. That way you can gain a lot of control over doomguy's momentum, and if you've refined your technique a little you can develop a pretty decent flow as you move from one platform to the next, due to how much control you actually have. Give it a little bit of practice, and within a few minutes you'll most likely have understood the basic gist of it, from there it's just about practice, and sometimes patience.

 

Whether or not platforming is something people enjoy is entirely up to them, but attempts to somehow rationalize personal preference (and passing it off as objective fact) by way of roping the very mechanics that make platforming skill-based into the equation is a highly opinionated take at the best of times.

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I put way too much platforming in my maps in general to pretend I don't like it.

It's alright; DOOM has its very own distinct flavour of run fast to the ledge and throw yourself horizontally platforming that gives it a unique 'feel' compared to something like the BUILD games (which also have a very distinct, if different, 'feel' to the platforming). It is part of classic DOOM's DNA (from episode 1 onwards! Although you'd have to be secret-hunting to experience it...) and I wouldn't change that.

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After recently going through the Chasm on NM, I'm inclined to say no. Not stopping on a dime and in general being a perfectly rectangular man with snowshoes on his feet without the ability to look up or down makes it pretty frustrating.

In the new games? Sure, they are all about the verticality.

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Momentum makes platforming bad? There's an excellent game from 1985 called 'Super Mario Bros.' that might make one reevaluate that assertion.

 

I enjoy ancillary platforming, when Doom's fake slide jump is used to make space more functionally complex, or to complicate the player's movement during combat. I'm heavily into Rekkr at the moment and there are some fights where I can't afford to snipe and I have to leap across some plateaus to fight up close, but then I'm stuck there.

 

There's some platforming-focused play in Hexen, isn't there? It's been a while but I think it's a fun change of pace that enlivens play with a different kinetic dynamic, and a different way of perceiving the map (and the map is the star of doom-engine gameplay, I argue).

 

My concern is that the doom engine doesn't have good feedback for platforming. Even if you're using freelook, it's not clear where your base is. The player's acceleration doesn't make the moment of liftoff particularly clear, either when slide-jumping, or zdoom-enabled hexen jumping. So, generally, I think I prefer platforming to be pretty easy, with large platforms and short jumps, and to have relatively little at stake.

 

Not my favorite game, but think of jumping in Ocarina of Time. It's very clear when you reach the edge of a platform and your jump begins.

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I think it's an interesting challenge. before these sections in most levels, it is like a bunch of enemies, and then finally, when you take all of them out, you are ready for another fight, taking out your big guns. But, instead of 5 barons attacking you at once, there is a ledge with small platforms to jump on, and when you do, it becomes easier, and easier (or at least you think) and then you make one wrong move, and suddenly, your biggest enemy is the floor. Racing towards the nearest portal or stairs before your health depletes to nothing, and now, you are studying this section harder, so you can make it to the end, where you say, "enough is enough." But... there are Medkits there. Why Do I need so Many Medkits? BAM!!!! The door opens, with those five barons you thought were in the other room! Now, you study the room, looking for the most advantageous spot to fire, and with several BFG shots, the spiny remains of those pesky barons lie waste in front of you.

 

the platforming room prepares you for the final fight. 

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8 minutes ago, Aaron Blain said:

Momentum makes platforming bad? There's an excellent game from 1985 called 'Super Mario Bros.' that might make one reevaluate that assertion.

Here's the difference - in SMB, you can see what's below you. You can see your feet. In Doom, you're pretty much guessing if tapping forward will cause you to fall off the ledge.

This is why, for the most part, precise platforming does not work in first person perspective.

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7 minutes ago, SuperchargedEuthanasiaDiv said:

Here's the difference - in SMB, you can see what's below you. You can see your feet. In Doom, you're pretty much guessing if tapping forward will cause you to fall off the ledge.

This is why, for the most part, precise platforming does not work in first person perspective.

I agree. Feedback in general is the key. That's why we started seeing this fluidity of 1st/3rd person games. The first one I remember is Eradicator, but the first time I really enjoyed it was Riddick. Switching to 3rd person in Zdoom doesn't feel great because there's not enough feedback built in.

 

I played the demo of this on a PC Gamer cd, I believe, and totally enjoyed it:

 

 

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I like it, my favorite maps I've made definitely use a good amount of light platforming.

 

I never tried a level with more difficult platforming, though.

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I like platforming in Doom if it flows well and can be done in one swift motion. A good example is Sunder map05, where each of the platforming sections can be done smoothly and without stopping. I don't like the constant start and stop that some levels have in their platforming sections.

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Personally, I hate it, but I can see why it would be something so divisive. Enough people love it to the point where there are whole mods dedicated to it (Jumpmaze and derivatives). Doom wasn't made with jumping in mind, and it certainly wasn't made for precise platforming, but that's precisely why I can see it becoming addicting once you get good at it. It is by all means and acquired taste, and there's a high skill ceiling for platforming.

On the other hand, when I, and I assume the other half of the equation here, play Doom we just wanna shoot and kill and not deal with Doom guy's slippery-lubed boots that make platforming a pain in the ass.

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I love it. It poses a different challenge that is not just killing demons.

Although, it has to be made non-tedious & make sure a player can go back at the start of platforming (if they fail) without massive backtracking.

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Like any aspect of Doom level design, when it’s fun, fair and doesn’t overstay it’s welcome, I like it. There are very few wads I’ve played that are super platforming oriented other than some zaney wads I’ve played on ZDaemon over the years and they were fun in their own right.

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I play keyboard-only, so I dread complex platforming, especially if it pulls the trick of making you jump a little farther each time, so it's ever more difficult to put the brakes on because of the torque you need to generate for successively longer leaps.

 

However, for years, I've thought of doing a sort of "Festivus for the rest of us" platforming map. Tons of platforming, but easy and speedy, albeit with the possibility of screwing up still there. Gotta have some challenge, right?

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Okay when done in slivers and where the penalty for failing isn't too terrible, but if you make it a chokepoint that I have to get across and I'm gonna take a ton of damage if I fail just to get to the next part of your map, fuck you and the horse you rode in on.

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