What is the point of Doom Eternal infighting?

[aldiboronti]

One of the great things about Classic Doom is the infighting and its strategic use by the player. Good luck finishing some maps without it! Now, OK, I'm still feeling my way about Doom Eternal but one of the letdowns for me was the toothless infighting. I guess you can say that it distracts the monsters even if it doesn't hurt them but it really pales besides the awesome scrapping between monsters of Classic Doom. So what gives? Am I missing something? Is there a switch somewhere that will restore real infighting?

 

[igg]

I remember watching monster infighting multiple times but none of them died.

 

On the other side, two of my three Icon of sin fights were not finished by myself. I always thought maybe a monster killed it?

[Gerardo194]

I think it was just for entertaining purposes. 

I haven't seen a real monsters infighting in Doom Eternal yet. 

It seldom happens in Doom 3 and Doom 2016

[NoXion]

There's that fake infighting that goes on before the demons get alerted to the presence of the Slayer. I also know that the demons can actually damage each other with their attacks.

It seems that the more dynamic and vertical combat means that there are fewer opportunities for friendly fire incidents. The Slayer is highly mobile and the demons are pretty good at keeping up with him. It seems to be dopey fodder demons who catch most of the stray shots.

[Man of Doom]

Based on several playthroughs, I’ve come to notice that nonscripted infighting is not only surprisingly common, it even serves as a sort of tactical advantage.

 

The reason I say the latter is twofold:

-A potentially dangerous enemy is out trying to win a fistfight against a smaller enemy, and as a result, they’re distracted so that you can adjust your arena strategies accordingly

-Like with the case of Zombiemen fighting with Imps, you can often get the drop on them by just plunking a sticky bomb on one of them and obtain the element of surprise there

 

The disappointing thing about the infighting here is that the demons don’t actually kill each other during the process because at best, you’ll just have the loser be staggered for a glory kill and the winner doing negligible amounts of damage to said loser.

[frag enabler]

Pretty much first PT assist to let you analyze the area you'll be fighting in.

Otherwise, see below.

 

[Foebane72]

I think a lot of Doom purists, especially Classic Doom, would look down on monster in-fighting and consider it pointless, since YOU'RE meant to kill all the monsters.

 

Put it this way: I made a map for Doom 2 back in the 1990s called Cyber Fort, in which a Cyberdemon was standing on top of a high pedestal right in the middle of a square area guarding a key to the only ammo on the map, with Imps and Barons of Hell lining the walls, and the idea was to make the Cyberdemon in-fight with all of the other monsters, and destroy it, so you could then get the key to the ammo and finish off all the other monsters. I showed it to someone to get some feedback, and they simply told me that "Doom is NOT a SPECTATOR SPORT". And yet, monster in-fighting persists to this day, even though it has lost all meaning and is basically a spectacle. Ironic, eh?

 

[Doom-X-Machina]

I have to say, I was also disappointed at the lack of genuine monster-biffin' going on... one of my favourite things about classic Doom is infighting and it's amusing as all hell when you see an Imp's poorly aimed fireball smack a Baron in the arse and the Baron goes "yeah, nah... F#$K you!" and promptly turns on it's heels and slaughters it...

I've always used infighting to my advantage wherever possible, particularly when there's a Spider or a Cyberdemon involved.

[Grazza]

16 minutes ago, Foebane72 said:

I think a lot of Doom purists, especially Classic Doom, would look down on monster in-fighting and consider it pointless, since YOU'RE meant to kill all the monsters.

I'd think it was closer to the exact opposite. Infighting was one of the key features of the original Doom, and without it the game would have had an utterly different (and far less nuanced) feel.

[Doom-X-Machina]

4 minutes ago, Grazza said:

I'd think it was closer to the exact opposite. Infighting was one of the key features of the original Doom, and without it the game would have had an utterly different (and far less nuanced) feel.

 

+1

[D88M3R]

None.

[Foebane72]

1 hour ago, Grazza said:

I'd think it was closer to the exact opposite. Infighting was one of the key features of the original Doom, and without it the game would have had an utterly different (and far less nuanced) feel.

 

I agree, but tell those idiots I mentioned above. I make a map for Doom 2 that RELIES on in-fighting, and they dismiss that aspect. I myself found it essential for beating the particularly big maps in Doom 2, like Suburbs: just run circles around the many monsters beaming in, and they'll finish off each other instead with so many crossfires.

 

[Chezza]

I think there's a missed opportunity with real monster infighting. However I understand changing the monster's aiming and aggression could significantly change the intended gameplay of Doom Eternal.

 

But it would be cool to get cyberdemons kick smaller demons out of their way or stomp on them without a care. Mancubus and Revenants shoot a reckless burst of shots hitting other demons and causing them to charge them etc. It can serve for some player strategy and entertainment.

[Foebane72]

16 hours ago, Gerardo194 said:

It seldom happens in Doom 3 and Doom 2016

 

It happens much more in Doom 2016, but Doom 3 instituted some strange hierarchy to the monsters as to what will attack what, and I haven't figured it out to this day.

 

[frag enabler]

13 minutes ago, Foebane72 said:

 

It happens much more in Doom 2016, but Doom 3 instituted some strange hierarchy to the monsters as to what will attack what, and I haven't figured it out to this day.

 

A monster from a lower rank cannot deliberately fight a monster from a higher rank.

example - a Revenant gets hit by a stray fireball from an Imp. The Revenant turns on the Imp, but the Imp cannot retaliate in any way, because the Revenant has a higher rank.

If 2 monsters are of the same rank, they will fight each other normally.

Doom 3 has so few enemies onscreen at any given time it's incredibly hard to make two demons turn on each other anyway.

[HavoX]

I suppose they've got nothing better to do? If they haven't died from it, maybe they're just practicing while waiting for the Slayer.

[Doom_Dude]

Eternal's infighting bothered me in the earlier maps, where it didn't even seem that they were even doing any damage. It looks completely staged. Haha.

[Kristian Nebula]

I've managed to make some infighting in DOOM 2016, in the Foundry in the area after where you cross the bridge. The HK jumped up from behind the ledge, and I ran back and a Zombie Soldier was firing his big plasma ball towards me and it stopped and exploded where I'd been a moment earlier right on the Hell Knight. It got mad and went to jump on the Zombie Soldier and staggered it and kept pounding at it until it fell into pieces. It was a nice and refresing thing to see.

Also saw it happen in Doom Eternal a couple of times but can't really remember now when and in which map. I'll be sure to mention it when it happens again!

[Sitting on a cornflake]

I like the demon infighting.  It makes each level feel like a real place actually inhabited by the demons rather than a developer-created "map" where enemies spawn in based on triggers programmed into the code.  I suspect that's also why the demon infighting doesn't damage the demons; it exists in the game to make the levels feel more inhabited and alive and not to make the slayer's job easier.    

[RonnieJamesDiner]

2 hours ago, Doom_Dude said:

Eternal's infighting bothered me in the earlier maps, where it didn't even seem that they were even doing any damage. It looks completely staged. Haha.

 

I always found it a little goofy looking as well, haha. Because no, I don't think they're doing any damage whatsoever. You can sit and watch them for a long time.

 

 

DOOM 2016 did have an infighting system, and I would imagine it's the same (or a variation of the same) system in Eternal. The lead programmer talks about it in a GDC talk here: (this is time stamped)

Spoiler

 

 

[random_soldier1337]

There's infighting? All I ever saw was demons throwing sissy slaps at each other until you come along.

[whatup876]

Might be because of the new style of combat and fear that some fights could end sooner than they should.

In classic Doom it works because besides the dumber AI and the "hordes" you can come up with some enemies (like the 2 Pinky hordes from Tricks and Traps"), og Doom sort of "mixed" combat and level design.

 

A comparison could be that one is like an old school side scroller like Castlevania and Ninja Gaiden (with some Metroidvania-like elements in the levels) and the other is more like a character action game or beat em up.

[SYS]

I suspect they did it to make the areas feel more lively. To give that feeling your going into a war zone with creatures that will fight each other if they have nothing else to fight. Better then them standing still, aimlessly wandering, or teleport in all the time. 

 

They might have even wanted vignettes of earth survivors fighting at some point. But keeping in tune with cartoon violence and avoiding realistic depictions of violence against humans they had monsters WWE sparring instead. 

[Foebane72]

17 minutes ago, SYS said:

I suspect they did it to make the areas feel more lively. To give that feeling your going into a war zone with creatures that will fight each other if they have nothing else to fight. Better then them standing still, aimlessly wandering, or teleport in all the time.

 

Classic Doom: Where the monsters viciously attack en masse until you are dead, and once that happens, they just stand still on the spot, after they've settled any scores between them, that is. The Doom Eternal developers must not have liked that aspect of the game at all. But doesn't the same thing happen in Doom Eternal when you die? They just stand still on the spot, once again?

 

[SYS]

They move after you drop in Eternal. It's only for a second and the screen fades to black. 

[Man of Doom]

34 minutes ago, SYS said:

They might have even wanted vignettes of earth survivors fighting at some point. But keeping in tune with cartoon violence and avoiding realistic depictions of violence against humans they had monsters WWE sparring instead.

To be honest, I kind of wanted to see depictions of earth survivors trying to fight against the demons and all sorts of realistic violence namely because it was hinted at in Doom 2016 (case in point, that one Hell Knight hologram).

In fact, during the QuakeCon 2018 footage, remember those UAC troops clad in black armor with plasma rifles? Apparently, you could see them in the '18 footage actually fighting off demons (you could see them in the platform above that one loading dock just before you get to the bridge) but it seems like they've been cut from the final game and are pretty much relegated to cutscenes only.

[SYS]

The campy parts give it a charm and lighten it up a little. I felt that way about the collectibles too at first. I think they struck a good balance instead of full on Doom Ultra Dank Dark Grim Death HD. 

[frag enabler]

1 hour ago, Foebane72 said:

But doesn't the same thing happen in Doom Eternal when you die? They just stand still on the spot, once again?

 

The monster that lands the killing blow does a little victory dance and then fucks off.

[Foebane72]

1 hour ago, SuperchargedEuthanasiaDiv said:

The monster that lands the killing blow does a little victory dance and then fucks off.

 

Come to think of it, I think I've seen that.

 

[Super Mighty G]

On 6/15/2020 at 11:04 PM, Foebane72 said:

The Doom Eternal developers must not have liked that aspect of the game at all.

 

It has nothing to do with "liking" it. The concept of infighting probably didn't mesh with the gameplay loop they were going for so they decided not to utilize it.