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Zero Denied

Half-Life 3 Was In The Works Years Ago

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1 hour ago, Foebane72 said:

They DID make Half-Life 3, except they called it Hunt Down the Freeman instead.

 

I'm deadly serious, I admire HL1, but NEVER liked the direction HL2 took, so for someone different to come along years later and make a trash game based on HL2, all the better.

 


Why? Crap games don't necessarily lead to good games. It just means that there's now a proper stinker amongst the officially published titles. I see no worthwhile reason to be pleased with that (what the fuck was Valve thinking, honestly). Especially not some bizarre glee because you personally didn't like the direction the sequels went.

 

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4 minutes ago, NoXion said:

Why? Crap games don't necessarily lead to good games. It just means that there's now a proper stinker amongst the officially published titles. I see no worthwhile reason to be pleased with that (what the fuck was Valve thinking, honestly). Especially not some bizarre glee because you personally didn't like the direction the sequels went.

 

Agreed, "I don't like it =/= objectively bad". I love HL2 overall even though I miss the darkness and the more edgy stuff from the beta, but, there's Missing Information, Raising the Bar Redux, Dark Interval, Episode 17, and more if I want that, so who cares.

 

And HTTF is not even canon or a Valve sanctioned entry in the series, it being a commercial game means exactly jack shit to the series. Never understood why people even care about it.

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13 minutes ago, NoXion said:

It just means that there's now a proper stinker amongst the officially published titles.

Yeah, HDTF seems to be used as one of the many excuses people use to crap on Valve, eventhough it has no connection to the official games. I'm honestly glad they decided to drop the try-hard edgy stuff of the beta, some of it reads like that funny sonic the hedgehog fan fiction, much prefer the more light-hearted take of what was shipped.

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If I were Valve, who is in charge of Steam, I would make sure that any lame rip-off of any of my games would be BANNED from Steam... but oh, look, HTDF is available on Steam, no questions asked. Can't Valve just say no to ANY game developer who wants to publish their games?

 

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I've loved all the Half-Life games so far, and most Valve games. I'm not including Hunt Down the Freeman because it's not even *called* Half-Life.

Really interesting to hear about the randomised elements. I can understand why that makes a lot of people nervous about what that would have meant for the game, but I don't recall people complaining about the randomised elements in the Left 4 Dead games.

One thing I loved about HL2 was the prolonged flight from the Combine. It makes them feel relentless. My only issue with it is that because it's scripted, it has limitations. If you replay an encounter, you know that a bunch of dudes will rappel down from the bridge *here* and that a dropship will fly in right *here*. Also, if you hang around too long after the encounter it can break the immersion when no reinforcements turn up.
 

Valve have consistently set the bar for innovation and quality in their games (largely because Steam means they can afford to take their time, of course). Alyx was amazing and proved that they are still setting the bar. Procedurally-generated encounters, done well, would have a tremendous effect.

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2 minutes ago, LordEntr0py said:

I've loved all the Half-Life games so far, and most Valve games. I'm not including Hunt Down the Freeman because it's not even *called* Half-Life.

Really interesting to hear about the randomised elements. I can understand why that makes a lot of people nervous about what that would have meant for the game, but I don't recall people complaining about the randomised elements in the Left 4 Dead games.

One thing I loved about HL2 was the prolonged flight from the Combine. It makes them feel relentless. My only issue with it is that because it's scripted, it has limitations. If you replay an encounter, you know that a bunch of dudes will rappel down from the bridge *here* and that a dropship will fly in right *here*. Also, if you hang around too long after the encounter it can break the immersion when no reinforcements turn up.
 

Valve have consistently set the bar for innovation and quality in their games (largely because Steam means they can afford to take their time, of course). Alyx was amazing and proved that they are still setting the bar. Procedurally-generated encounters, done well, would have a tremendous effect.

Stuff Half-Life did was done in shooters before.

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9 minutes ago, Foebane72 said:

If I were Valve, who is in charge of Steam, I would make sure that any lame rip-off of any of my games would be BANNED from Steam... but oh, look, HTDF is available on Steam, no questions asked. Can't Valve just say no to ANY game developer who wants to publish their games?

 

Steam is supposed to be an open and friendly digital store for both developers and consumers, so that philosophy doesn't mix with "deny bad games from entering the store, period." Besides, some people have guilty pleasures and genuinely enjoy trash. This attitude is pretty childish and entitled dude. If you don't like it, just ignore it, it's that simple. And they've said "no" before, primarily to games that had too much controversial content.

 

I don't like HDTF at all either, but it's existence doesn't affect me in any capacity, and it's not even canon or sanctioned by Valve themselves, so there's even less reason to care for it since it leaves no stain on the series, it's like bad fan-fic.

 

13 minutes ago, sluggard said:

I'm honestly glad they decided to drop the try-hard edgy stuff of the beta, some of it reads like that funny sonic the hedgehog fan fiction, much prefer the more light-hearted take of what was shipped.

 

B-but... Air Exchange, Vertigo, and Borealis man :( ...

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12 minutes ago, seed said:

 

Steam is supposed to be an open and friendly digital store for both developers and consumers, so that philosophy doesn't mix with "deny bad games from entering the store, period." Besides, some people have guilty pleasures and genuinely enjoy trash. This attitude is pretty childish and entitled dude. If you don't like it, just ignore it, it's that simple.

 

I don't like HDTF at all either, but it's existence doesn't affect me in any capacity, and it's not even canon or sanctioned by Valve themselves, so there's even less reason to care for it since it leaves no stain on the series, it's like bad fan-fic.


I don't know what Steam is like now, since I don't pay attention to the new game releases, but at one point decent indie games were getting flooded out by a swell of asset flips and other rip-offs that aren't even fun to play ironically, because they're that fucking lazy. 

If the fact that asset flips are now even turning up on Nintendo platforms (which supposedly have a greater reputation for quality control) is any indication, then it seems unlikely that the situation has improved much.

I think there is such a thing as too much "open and friendly" in a digital game store. Scammers and talentless hacks can shit out a lot more turds, far more frequently than skilled developers can make good games.

It's a legitimate criticism of the way Steam is being run, although of course none of it has anything to do with the direction that the Half-Life series took.

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3 minutes ago, NoXion said:

I don't know what Steam is like now, since I don't pay attention to the new game releases, but at one point decent indie games were getting flooded out by a swell of asset flips and other rip-offs that aren't even fun to play ironically, because they're that fucking lazy. 

If the fact that asset flips are now even turning up on Nintendo platforms (which supposedly have a greater reputation for quality control) is any indication, then it seems unlikely that the situation has improved much.

I think there is such a thing as too much "open and friendly" in a digital game store. Scammers and talentless hacks can shit out a lot more turds, far more frequently than skilled developers can make good games.

It's a legitimate criticism of the way Steam is being run, although none of it has anything to do with the direction that the Half-Life series took.

 

Never said it was perfect, or implied that.

 

All stores have their own issues, but overall setting up a "quality bar" would be too difficult - still, asset rip-offs and scams masquerading as games should definitely not be allowed, that's not even debatable.

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24 minutes ago, The Strife Commando said:

Stuff Half-Life did was done in shooters before.

Well, of course. Are you challenging what I said about innovation?

I, for one, remember being extremely impressed with the Source engine when I first played HL2 after release. I remember being extremely impressed with how the Gravity Gun was both a fun weapon and an excellent showcase of the Build engine's capabilities. I'm not gonna claim it's the first game to introduce elements like this, but the innovation is in the way they are implemented, and how well they fit together. Case-in-point: there's a manhack trapped beneath a fallen piece of railing on one of the early "sewer" areas. It's a small thing, but I recall it being the first time I'd seen that kind of thing presented in such an organic and convincing way. It was so organic that it was actually slightly disappointing to discover that it was a scripted discovery.

 

(see how that came back around to the case for procedural encounters?)

Alyx was to VR games what HL and HL2 were to FPS games of their times. Many elements had already been pioneered, but it's honestly the most complete VR experience I've had; the way Alyx's hands grip the railing or trace the wall; the way a newspaper flops about when you hold it; the way objects break in convincing ways... It's not the first VR game to use these elements, but it's the first I've seen to bring them together and present them so smoothly.

Edited by LordEntr0py : mixing my engines

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2 minutes ago, LordEntr0py said:

I, for one, remember being extremely impressed with the Build engine when I first played HL2 after release.

That engine went way ahead after DN3D.

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Just now, Vic Vos said:

That engine went way ahead after DN3D.

*Facepalm*

I said Build... I meant Source.

 

:D

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4 minutes ago, seed said:

 

Never said it was perfect, or implied that.

 

All stores have their own issues, but overall setting up a "quality bar" would be too difficult - still, asset rip-offs and scams masquerading as games should definitely not be allowed, that's not even debatable.


Of course. The trouble is that it seems that Steam doesn't even do that most of the time. I think that's primarily what is making people call for more quality control on Steam, rather than simply games that are bad.

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16 minutes ago, NoXion said:

Of course. The trouble is that it seems that Steam doesn't even do that most of the time. I think that's primarily what is making people call for more quality control on Steam, rather than simply games that are bad.

 

I know, and I agree that Steam has its own quality control issues - for a long time Greenlight has been a laughing stock for instance, yet it gave us many games we otherwise would have never touched, probably, and given the devs an opportunity they never had -, as I said there's been many scam titles released over the years and although most if not all of them end up getting taken down sooner or later, the general issue still remains that they should not end up there in the first place.

 

But all in all, I don't think it's a job that's easier said than done, otherwise no other stores would have the very same problem, especially since some of these scams can be quite clever and the customers realize they've been ripped-off only well after the fact. More quality control is needed, but implementing it seems no easy task.

 

40 minutes ago, The Strife Commando said:

Stuff Half-Life did was done in shooters before.

 

Regarding your question about why HL3 was not made on Source, that's simple: Because Source is just too old, and has been that way for many years. HL was always meant to push the tech and gameplay in innovative ways that haven't really been done before, or if they were, they weren't executed as well - indeed, the genre doesn't exist in a vacuum and what they did was done before, ultimately. Case on point, physics and how they impacted the actual gameplay in HL2. The GG could have simply ended up as little more than a glorified gimmick, but it ended up being so much more than that and plays an integral part in the experience.

 

Source was very flexible, and could be heavily overhauled as seen with games like Titanfall which do use it, but no engine is immortal and sooner or later it needs to be replaced. It's just like expecting an operating system to be supported forever, that's plain wishful thinking, and there's only so much you can do to an engine until you reach the point of "well, I guess we've reached the limit of our tech, it's time to retire it and make something else." So, HL3 was not made on Source because it ultimately would've been unable to carry the game and was going to deliver a subpar experience.

Edited by seed

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Going from super innovative HL1 to super innovative HL2 to not really innovative HL3 would be seen by everyone as taking the easy road. Valve is perfectly aware of Half-Life's reputation and didn't want to create a sequel that didn't push the envelope like the previous two entries did. 

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On 7/14/2020 at 3:24 PM, Foebane72 said:

They DID make Half-Life 3, except they called it Hunt Down the Freeman instead.

 

I'm deadly serious, I admire HL1, but NEVER liked the direction HL2 took, so for someone different to come along years later and make a trash game based on HL2, all the better.

 

Same here, for some reason I just freaking hate HL2. Played it just for the story continuation and got what? Trash. I read the spoilers of the story. HL2 just didn't have the mysterious feel that HL1 had.

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Well at least we had Alyx, now let's wait another 15 years and we'll finally get to know that happened to Gordon. You know, the good thing about Half Life is that both 1 and 2 are precious gems that we'll forever be remembered with care and passion.

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12 minutes ago, Endless said:

Well at least we had Alyx, now let's wait another 15 years and we'll finally get to know that happened to Gordon. You know, the good thing about Half Life is that both 1 and 2 are precious gems that we'll forever be remembered with care and passion.

 

As seen in the end game scene of Alyx, Gordon and now Eli are just fine, waiting for more action at the end of Episode 2, whose ending has now been retconned, and with Source 2 complete and the crew teasing a new HL game on the way, we won't have to wait another 13 years for a sequel, hopefully.

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13 minutes ago, seed said:

 

As seen in the end game scene of Alyx, Gordon and now Eli are just fine, waiting for more action at the end of Episode 2, whose ending has now been retconned, and with Source 2 complete and the crew teasing a new HL game on the way, we won't have to wait another 13 years for a sequel, hopefully.

 

Well, that sucks.

 

Honestly, retconning deaths in videogames or movies, especially of significant characters, is always a recipe for disaster. Takes away the whole concept of noble sacrifice, for one thing. And now Alyx is the new Gordon Freeman replacement.

 

THAT SUCKS!

 

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6 minutes ago, Foebane72 said:

Well, that sucks.

 

Honestly, retconning deaths in videogames or movies, especially of significant characters, is always a recipe for disaster. Takes away the whole concept of noble sacrifice, for one thing. And now Alyx is the new Gordon Freeman replacement.

 

THAT SUCKS!

 

In that case I'm sorry for you bud, you picked up the wrong franchise then. Retcons have been a thing in HL since the days of old, nothing new to see here.

 

And they had to do it anyway, otherwise the series couldn't continue if they left it the same, considering Laidlaw posted the original script for Episode 3 years ago. This gives them a chance to reboot the series and tell a different story, since we got the original conclusion to the trilogy already, go forward for what, to just turn that script into a game? No thanks. They've done it before, and they can do it again.

 

And if you really want that continuation, watch out for Boreal Alyph and Project Borealis, I'd rather have something else than a recycled story.

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While the death of Eli definitely hit me in the feels back when I first saw it, I can't say that I'm so invested in his character's integrity as to be outraged about them walking it back. And I'm one of those who liked the direction the series took.

The only thing that annoys me about the Alyx game is that I'm unlikely to play it myself any time soon. I'm mulling over whether I should wait however long it takes for me to get a decent VR rig going, or just bite the bullet and watch a Let's Play.

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5 minutes ago, NoXion said:

While the death of Eli definitely hit me in the feels back when I first saw it, I can't say that I'm so invested in his character's integrity as to be outraged about them walking it back. And I'm one of those who liked the direction the series took.

The only thing that annoys me about the Alyx game is that I'm unlikely to play it myself any time soon. I'm mulling over whether I should wait however long it takes for me to get a decent VR rig going, or just bite the bullet and watch a Let's Play.

 

Watch a let's play, it will be good enough, I know I'm never playing that game myself either.

 

The price of admission if far too high regardless of how much money I'll ever have, and I would rather not go for a subpar experience, most people recommend the Index for the best deal, but no thanks, I don't have $11K to spend on VR capable hardware and the VR set itself for a single game.

 

And even if I did, I don't have enough physical space and a suitable room configuration to put it good use anyway. So, I'll pass.

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I just hope HL3 won't also be VR because I certainly can't afford VR gear either, plus I get motion sickness pretty easily, so trying to play VR games in general would be a nightmare if I even could afford it. I'm happy to skip out on HL Alyx if I can still play HL3. I already bit the bullet and watched a playthrough of it on YouTube anyways.

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13 minutes ago, Biodegradable said:

I just hope HL3 won't also be VR because I certainly can't afford VR gear either, plus I get motion sickness pretty easily, so trying to play VR games in general would be a nightmare if I even could afford it. I'm happy to skip out on HL Alyx if I can still play HL3. I already bit the bullet and watched a playthrough of it on YouTube anyways.

 

Don't worry, it won't be.

 

A prequel helped them make something excellent and fresh, especially in the time when VR games were too much of a gimmick and feeling... incomplete and glorified ideas, for lack of a better word, but they're fully aware the price of admission is too high and as a result only a minority of the fanbase would be able to experience it if they did that way. The team even said this multiple times in recent interviews that they want to make a "traditional" HL experience next. Alyx helped moving VR equipment around, but the point still remains - only a minority will get to experience it this way.

 

And for a main entry in the series, essentially both a soft reboot and a sequel, it is the right thing to do IMO. HL is a FPS after all, and turning it into an all-VR experience won't do it too much justice and only lock many fans out. I can definitely understand why some would see this as a downgrade after Alyx, but again, turning the franchise into a VR-only experience permanently would also not exactly be ideal either, completely forsaking its roots as a result. HL3 will likely have a VR component to it anyway, and if so, it remains to be seen how and what impact will that have, but overall it will most likely not have it as a requirement, and if they do it well, I'm sure it will not feel like a downgraded experience either.

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Yeah, that's a good point there, mate. Given that HL3 would be highly anticipated and no doubt Valve would want as many people to play it as possible, it only makes sense that they'd make it much more accessible. Plus, they have the power to do that and don't have to, say, work with a publisher who ends up cracking a deal with either Sony or Microsoft to make it a console-exclusive title.

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1 hour ago, seed said:

I don't have $11K to spend on VR capable hardware and the VR set itself for a single game.

I spent nothing like that... but yeah even if you already had a powerful enough PC, a headset is expensive and not really justifiable to spend on one game.


*sweeps evidence of buying Oculus entirely for Elite: Dangerous under the carpet*

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21 minutes ago, LordEntr0py said:

I spent nothing like that... but yeah even if you already had a powerful enough PC, a headset is expensive and not really justifiable to spend on one game.


*sweeps evidence of buying Oculus entirely for Elite: Dangerous under the carpet*

 

From what I've seen those seem to be the most common numbers for building a high end, VR capable PC and then buying a Valve Index, that shit is definitely not cheap, and as I said, I've heard that the Index is still the best way to experience Alyx, and the VR equipment is where you want most of the money to go.

 

Regardless of how you look at it, high end gaming hardware is not cheap and VR equipment even less so, so unless you're rich, this will never be more accessible, and with that money you're better off spending it on something else, like a small city car than hardware for just one game - I keep saying "one game" because Alyx is the only VR game that interests me, and probably ever will. And besides, even if you do have the money, if your room is not suitable for the job, it's pointless. I've got neither, for reference.

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There is a huge discussion about Rouge-likes on here, and HL3 never was a Rouge-like. LoL. it would just randomly generate areas, which I'm pretty sure does not automatically make it a rouge-like. I thought Half-Life: Alyx was technically HL3.

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3 hours ago, seed said:

 

As seen in the end game scene of Alyx, Gordon and now Eli are just fine, waiting for more action at the end of Episode 2, whose ending has now been retconned, and with Source 2 complete and the crew teasing a new HL game on the way, we won't have to wait another 13 years for a sequel, hopefully.

Ayy man, thanks for the spoiler Seed lol. Well, i gotta admit that looks cool, I really liked the way they're showing the whole power and mistery behind the Gman. Guess it's my fault for not owning a VR headset :(

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I wonder if people like the Half-Life series for the gameplay. They seem to only be interested in the story. Just a thought.

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