Classic Doom Better Than The New Ones Or Vice Versa?

[Gez]

What's better to play, chess or piano?

 

I don't think you can make a meaningful comparison between id-Doom and Bethesda-Doom, since even if they're nominally the same franchise and the same genre, there's a two-decade gap between them, with all the accompanying changes in technology and, even if it's a pretentious word, gameplay paradigms.

 

Obviously the classics are a lot more barebones, more simplistic, less polished, less production values. The Doom 2016 development team is like a hundred times larger than the Doom II development team, or something in that order of magnitude at least. Processing power has been multiplied by millions. Likewise for data storage. For these reasons, the modern Dooms are technically "better" than the classics.

 

But at the same time, that's not really what we're comparing, is it? Classic Doom is not just id's offering from the mid-nineties, it's also all the community-made content for it since then. The thousands of mods. The dozens of source ports. The easy-to-use editors that allow anyone to tinker with modding. And that's a large part of Classic Doom's appeal and replay value. If you're not discouraged by the dated sounds and graphics, you'll find a game that is extremely approachable, with extremely simple gameplay at its core (no precision aiming, no reloading, no cooldown management) because the complexity lies not in learning how to use your Doomguy (as the modern titles, and especially Doom Eternal, do) but in learning how to fight the monsters.

 

(You can tell -- classic Doom introduces new monsters slowly, you start with only zombies and imps, then graduate to demons and spectres, then you have the revenant, followed by mancubus and arachnotron, etc. whereas Doom Eternal starts you with a lot of different monster types right in the first level but introduces player abilities such as weapon mods, runes, dash, grenades, blood punch, etc. gradually.)

[dmslr]

6 minutes ago, Graf Zahl said:

The old ones are definitely better - any game with DRM is shit by default in my book.

 

What does DRM have to do with the game itself?

[Mr. Freeze]

Classic Doom is infinitely more replayable- 2016 doesn't have Classic's widespread mod support, and Doom Eternal is just exhausting to play for more than an hour.  

[D88M3R]

Way better, no question about it, pretty graphics and nothing else are not enough to make a game good.

The new Dooms have zero replay value, zero. Once you finished a level at 100% there is no reason to go back because of how repetitive it is.
They dont have level design, is arena after arena after arena. They also lack atmosphere. 
They have a bad, dumb story that gets in the way of gameplay (The meta commentary about the Doomguy/player is good and smart, but deflates quickly)

Adding to that, they have one "mood/tone" in story and gameplay which is a blend of Brutal Doom with the Doom comic book, with non stop braindead action. 
They have dumb gameplay choices (excessive and not well made platforming, unskippable "cutscenes", weapons mods, piñata monsters, etc)

 

Not too long ago i replayed Doom 2016, less than halfway through it you see everything the game has to offer and it becomes a chore.
I have not replayed Eternal yet but i doubt it aged much better, and the platforming and story are ridiculous, among other things.

 

There is a reason why Doom 1 and 2 keeps being played after 25 years and still will be after another 25.
Is a perfectly oiled clockwork machine that to this day is still a great game.
They got so much stuff right that is amazing that after so many years they still cannot replicate it. 
The weapons, levels, enemies, gameplay and etc is so good and varied most of the time.

The new ones are not bad games but they are not great either and they made some baffling choices regarding gameplay.
I could go on forever but i think i made my point.

Doom 1 and 2 are eternal classics, Doom 2016 and Eternal are okay games.

[DNSKILL5]

6 hours ago, dmslr said:

What does DRM have to do with the game itself?

Pretty sure he means he isn’t going to play a game that has DRM. I tend to agree, DRM is bullshit and is going to push gamers away (eventually) when they stop drinking the complacency juice publisher’s (because it usually isn’t the developer at fault) have been serving. When gamers stop saying “I’m fine with this even though I’m really not” and start saying “I’m not buying this if I’m going to be treated like my money doesn’t mean shit.”, maybe there could be some change to how DRM is handled in the future, but when someone mentions how they hate DRM and the first thing to enter your mind is why that has anything to do with the game... it could be a very long time before this change occurs. 
 

edit: don’t take that as an attack, I said “your mind” but I am referring to gamers in general. 

Edited August 16, 2020 by Gerolf

[printz]

I used to like Doom 2016 and find it awesome while progressing through it. However, as soon as it was over, I realized how tacky and hollow it really is. It felt really limited in scope, eschewing any depth for simple arcade gameplay. This makes me reluctant to try Doom Eternal.

 

Doom 3 was better. It didn't have much more depth, but also wasn't going just for the basics like Doom 2016. It still had world-building and ambient dynamics that suggested more was going to happen. I think (realize) I like it for its dark and scary atmosphere with a humble approach, like I saw in other childhood games such as Diablo.

 

Doom 2 and 1 (can't easily separate them now) are great and also powerful on world building, but they're saturated now. It's been done to death. It also got memed to death, leading id into making that Doom 2016 abomination. That's why I often find Doom 3 map sets (the ones which may still be made) more attractive, their novelty isn't all tapped.

 

EDIT: the primitive game engine is Doom 2's biggest weakness. 

Edited August 17, 2020 by printz

[DoomGater]

17 hours ago, Graf Zahl said:

The old ones are definitely better - any game with DRM is shit by default in my book.

 

 

additionally, games which haven't been properly ported to Linux do not count for me. 

[DoomGater]

17 hours ago, dmslr said:

What does DRM have to do with the game itself?

 

Among other disadvantages, it is a sign of greed. For Doom(1), the first episode was available as shareware,
the 4th (Ultimate...) and 5th(SI6IL) episodes are available foc.
How many Episodes for the new Doom are freely available?

[A Nobody]

9 hours ago, printz said:

I used to like Doom 2016 and find it awesome while progressing through it. However, as soon as it was over, I realized how tacky and hollow it really is. It felt really limited in scope, eschewing any depth for simple arcade gameplay. This makes me reluctant to try Doom Eternal.

 

Doom 3 was better. It didn't have much more depth, but also wasn't going just for the basics like Doom 2016. It still had world-building and ambient dynamics that suggested more was going to happen. I think (realize) I like it for its dark and scary atmosphere with a humble approach, like I saw in other childhood games such as Diablo.

 

Doom 2 and 1 (can't easily separate them now) are great and also powerful on world building, but they're saturated now. It's been done to death. It also got memed to death, leading id into making that Doom 2016 abomination. That's why I often find Doom 3 map sets (the ones which may still be made) more attractive, their novelty isn't all tapped.

 

EDIT: the primitive game engine is Doom 2's biggest weakness. 

Doom's about the gameplay though.

[Maes]

6 hours ago, DoomGater said:

 

Among other disadvantages, it is a sign of greed. For Doom(1), the first episode was available as shareware,
the 4th (Ultimate...) and 5th(SI6IL) episodes are available foc.
How many Episodes for the new Doom are freely available?

Well, if the timeline of the original Doom games is anything to go by, expect maybe a free episode in a year's time (because, yeah, the effort of making 9 Doom maps, even with the means of the time, is totally comparable to making an episode for a modern AAA game today), and the next one 25 or so years later (which won't even run on the original engine, mind you).

[seed]

7 hours ago, DoomGater said:

How many Episodes for the new Doom are freely available?

 

How many of them have been made?

 

Also SnapMap is a thing, and that stuff is free.

[mammajamma]

On 8/17/2020 at 8:52 AM, Maes said:

Well, if the timeline of the original Doom games is anything to go by, expect maybe a free episode in a year's time (because, yeah, the effort of making 9 Doom maps, even with the means of the time, is totally comparable to making an episode for a modern AAA game today), and the next one 25 or so years later (which won't even run on the original engine, mind you).

Well, id gave away Doom 4's DLC in the very last patch they put out, id/Bethesda's already offering a free upgrade to the PS5/Series X versions for PS4/Xbone owners, and they're fast at work on a large single-player DLC (one of three!) even with COVID fucking everything up. Odds are, give it a couple of years and we'll get the DLC for free AND the mod tools (id did hint that mod tools would come after the DLC is finished, after all).

[D4NUK1]

Also they have demos 

[Chip]

This isn't really a question for Doomworld, as this site is really about classic DOOM. the Reddit subforum and Slayer's Club is all about the remakes. 

[D4NUK1]

33 minutes ago, LiT_gam3r said:

This isn't really a question for Doomworld, as this site is really about classic DOOM. the Reddit subforum and Slayer's Club is all about the remakes. 

Why? Im sure there people here that like's more NuDoom that Classic Doom. 

Don't bring gatekeeping and elitism in general.

[Biodegradable]

47 minutes ago, LiT_gam3r said:

This isn't really a question for Doomworld, as this site is really about classic DOOM. the Reddit subforum and Slayer's Club is all about the remakes. 

 

Incorrect, mate. We've got subforums specifically made for the nuDoom games.

 

[DNSKILL5]

15 minutes ago, jamondemarnatural said:

Why? Im sure there people here that like's more NuDoom that Classic Doom. 

Don't bring gatekeeping and elitism in general.

I think you took their comment the wrong way. Doomworld tends to have a lot more discussion related to classic Doom, and there’s definitely more than one reason as to why that’s the case, but it has nothing to do with gatekeeping or elitism. 
 

Visit the Doom subreddit, and the majority of discussion is related to Doom 2016 and Doom Eternal. There are also more than one reasons as to why that is the case, but once again it has nothing to do with gatekeeping or elitism. 
 

I feel that your comment was in poor taste, but maybe there is some sort of misunderstanding. 
 

While I don’t agree that this isn’t a question for Doomworld, it is a repetitive question. 

[D4NUK1]

17 minutes ago, Gerolf said:

I think you took their comment the wrong way. Doomworld tends to have a lot more discussion related to classic Doom, and there’s definitely more than one reason as to why that’s the case, but it has nothing to do with gatekeeping or elitism. 
 

 

Maybe was like that as my language barrier is still pretty low. It's seems to show more sense as you explained. Sorry if you or @LiT_gam3r taked this the wrong way.

[Chip]

@jamondemarnatural it's okay. I understand how my comment can be taken the wrong way. Basically, I was saying that Doomworld has way more topics about the classic DOOMs over the NuDoom games. Most people here will obviously enjoy the older games than the newer ones. That doesn't mean there are some that enjoy the newer ones more. 

[THT]

I know I'll sound like an old fart here, but Doom Eternal isn't what I was hoping for in that it's very specific and convoluted in its approach to gameplay. You don't feel like you're discovering creative solutions when everything is hyper-specific (like 2-phase monster weaknesses, using chainsaw to get health back, etc.) which is where a lot of triple-A blockbuster games fall flat. Like other people have said, linear gameplay sucks the replay out of a game. I'd prefer to decide which weapon I FEEL IS BEST in a given situation, rather than saying, "okay, I need gun X to initiate the disarming animation on an arachnotron, then I need weapon Y to perform the big finisher" it'd be better if they made the physics robust enough that you could carefully aim a rocket and it'd just blow off organically as you please. This is a big, modern game on bleeding-edge hardware, right? Why do they keep relying on boring-ass scripted behaviours when we could have actual physics-based insanity and freedom? I think they just try to do as little as possible and coast by on the status-quo, personally I'd take previous-gen graphics for hyper-modern physics, but video games are the new Hollywood now, and devs just don't have the passion id channelled when they made the OG Doom.

[A Nobody]

49 minutes ago, THT said:

I know I'll sound like an old fart here, but Doom Eternal isn't what I was hoping for in that it's very specific and convoluted in its approach to gameplay. You don't feel like you're discovering creative solutions when everything is hyper-specific (like 2-phase monster weaknesses, using chainsaw to get health back, etc.) which is where a lot of triple-A blockbuster games fall flat. Like other people have said, linear gameplay sucks the replay out of a game. I'd prefer to decide which weapon I FEEL IS BEST in a given situation, rather than saying, "okay, I need gun X to initiate the disarming animation on an arachnotron, then I need weapon Y to perform the big finisher" it'd be better if they made the physics robust enough that you could carefully aim a rocket and it'd just blow off organically as you please. This is a big, modern game on bleeding-edge hardware, right? Why do they keep relying on boring-ass scripted behaviours when we could have actual physics-based insanity and freedom? I think they just try to do as little as possible and coast by on the status-quo, personally I'd take previous-gen graphics for hyper-modern physics, but video games are the new Hollywood now, and devs just don't have the passion id channelled when they made the OG Doom.

Same could apply to modern day games. They don't feel as good as games made in the past. The focus on graphics and realism rather than a great fun experience kills it for me.

[THT]

Also, the little bonuses that fly out of enemies look damn stupid; Diablo 3 made this same mistake when they tried to make a dark, gritty-looking game and fucked it all up by making all kinds of fruity neon tracers flying everywhere. I like to think I'm not part of the "dumbass" demographic that needs bright+shiny to see what's going on in my immediate surroundings.

[Mystic 256]

I like the Classic Doom Games better

Its more fun and faster, simple, and ultra moddable which i love

and the multiplayer (zdaemon, zandronum, odamex) is way better than new dooms

I oddly also like the graphics better even though they are sprites

Its more easy for my eyes to distinguish between the differant colorful sprites and colorful textures than shaded textured 3d models.

and again the millions of wads and mods make classic doom endless and diverse

 

The new doom games are good too

they just feel bit slower and a lot harder, maybes it because im not used to the mechanics, i just got the games in june and haven't fully finished them but they are a lot harder than even Plutonia UV for me, then again ive been playing plutonia for years and know it well

I kinda like idea upgradable weapons and the fact melee is its own key instead of a "weapon" like in classic doom it makes it easier for me to use often which is useful for glory kills which new doom has which are cool.

 

[jazzmaster9]

8 hours ago, THT said:

I like to think I'm not part of the "dumbass" demographic that needs bright+shiny to see what's going on in my immediate surroundings.

Yeah screw color coded readability. Casuals... true gamers can play blindfolded

 

Liking one art style is fine. But dont feel like you are somehow better because of it.

 

No i dont really think you are an old fart since being old usually comes with maturity and not calling people "dumbass" for not agreeing with you.

Edited August 21, 2020 by jazzmaster9

[AtimZarr1]

9 hours ago, THT said:

but video games are the new Hollywood now, and devs just don't have the passion id channelled when they made the OG Doom.

 

8 hours ago, The Strife Commando said:

Same could apply to modern day games. They don't feel as good as games made in the past. The focus on graphics and realism rather than a great fun experience kills it for me.

 

There are so many fantastic games released these days, we don't only need to look at the "big budget blockbuster franchises" (which I presume is how most people judge modern trends) to accurately assess modern games. For example, let's remember that the original Doom was developed as a self-published game with only a handful of developers working on it. That would mean we would have to look at indie or other "smaller-scaled" games released today to find those that share a similar "passion" and that don't focus on "realism".

 

If we're just interested in the retro FPS genre, there are some modern favourites such as Dusk (2018), Amid Evil (2019), Ion Fury (2019), etc. If we look beyond the FPS genre, examples of well-received indie games include: Hollow Knight (2017), Celeste (2018), Crypt of the Necrodancer (2015), Darkest Dungeon (2016), Slay the Spire (2019), etc.

 

And I only chose to list games released in the past five years. Being released in the past or the present doesn't innately make a game better or worse. There are still passionate people developing games that focus on gameplay and fun foremost, as there has always been. We just need to look for them.

[Zulk RS]

On 8/15/2020 at 6:47 AM, Doomkid said:

Doom is a very lucky series. It doesn’t have a “bad game” and I think people who have never played it jump to saying “Doom 3 is the bad one” when it’s more accurate to say “it’s the least face-meltingly amazing game in an overall fantastic series”.

 

Doom 3 is better than the average game. It’s artfully made, has appealing visuals and is enjoyable to play to completion, even aside from being very technically impressive with it’s ultra realistic lighting.

 

Doom 2 is the best video game ever made so the competition is pretty fierce, but I’m content to just leave it at “the whole series is damn good”. Just look at poor old Duke and see the horrible state many of Doom’s peers ended up in. Even games as influential or more influential than Doom have series that are littered with shitty titles. I’m a huge fan of Street Fighter and Mario, but good lord they have hit some low lows along the way. Not so with DOOM.

 

This. Doom really is an awesome series. I would however argue that the fact that the classic Doom is so easy to mod and so easy run mods on to be a huge factor on why it didn't end up like Doom's peers.

 

Unlike with something like Skyrim which is also extremely modabble, Doom also has the edge because of how it can run on almost anything. You can have a second hand PC from the 90s and still play Doom and its mods. Since so many people still play Doom, it just naturally made sense to keep making new Doom games.  I haven't played the new games because my PC can't run them but if the reviews are anything to go by, it's probably pretty good. On an added note, I think Doom 4 (Doom 2016) had a risk of being very bad. I am talking about the development history of that game where they wanted to originally make something like a more modern shooter with a heavier focus on story and characters but then the idea was scrapped and they made the Doom 2016 we got instead. Not really sure how a story heavy modern Doom shooter would have been but it would have been a very easy thing to botch I take it.

 

 

[3saster]

26 minutes ago, Zulk RS said:

Unlike with something like Skyrim which is also extremely modabble, Doom also has the edge because of how it can run on almost anything.

If you ask me, that's not really the reason it's stayed relevant for that long (and Skyrim and the Elder Scrolls series in general have large modding communities too). The main things that allowed Doom to thrive in modern times imo is the extensibility and theoretically infinite modding (thanks to modifying the source code itself, or the very large feature base of other ports like GZDoom), and, most importantly, the ease of getting started nowadays. Of any game I've ever played, Doom has by far the lowest barrier to entry to get started modding, especially for mapping. The relative simplicity of Doom, while it has its limitations, is one of its biggest strengths, and the reason so many people get into Doom modding in the first place.

As for the original question, I'd almost argue it's an unfair question, Doom 2016/Eternal and Doom 1/2 are very different games in terms of how they play. Classic Doom is the one I've spend way more time on though, because as was mentioned before, Doom 2016 gets repetitive, and once you're done the main campaign, there isn't that much reason to go back unless you want to collect all the secrets. Combined with the lack of real custom content (even if SnapMap had a huge amount of cool maps, there isn't that much that can be done with the limits of Snapmap and 2016's gameplay), while I really enjoyed 2016 on my original playthrough, I don't see much reason to go back to it for a while. Meanwhile, with classic Doom, there's so much user content, and so much that can be done with it (either through vanilla, or extended things like GZDoom) that you'll never run out of stuff to play in Doom! So while I enjoy both Classic and Non-classic Doom, classic is certainly the one I keep playing all the time.

[MassiveEdgelord]

If DOOM 2016 didn't have Doomguy punch everything in cutscenes, a modding community, and more variety in maps, then I would easily call modern DOOM better.

[CasualScrub]

I prefer the classic games for their replayability, modding factor, and more relaxed playstyle.

[Steve D]

Pure opinion, I like Classic better. So simple and fun to play and map for. I have so many mapping projects that I have almost no time left over for modern Doom. I also like Doom 3 for its creepiness. A few bad decisions were made in its development, but if it was easy to map for, I think it would be more fondly remembered today.  Modern Doom is very impressive technologically, though I am bummed that I have to use Steam to play it. I might play it more if not for that.