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Dr.Ferret

Would using the cheat codes in classic doom be considered cheating or cheesing?

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Before you say it is obviously cheating, here this. My father is also a gamer who has played the original Atari and still games today. He played and beat doom 1 and 2 on ultra violence and he dose not know of the codes. He says this about a game, if a trick is in the game, it is cheesing. If you hack the game like let’s say messing with the coding or using a game genie on classic games that’s cheating. So what do you guys think? If the codes were put in by the developers is it cheating or cheesing?

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36 minutes ago, Dr.Ferret said:

Before you say it is obviously cheating, here this. My father is also a gamer who has played the original Atari and still games today. He played and beat doom 1 and 2 on ultra violence and he dose not know of the codes. He says this about a game, if a trick is in the game, it is cheesing. If you hack the game like let’s say messing with the coding or using a game genie on classic games that’s cheating. So what do you guys think? If the codes were put in by the developers is it cheating or cheesing?

use cheat codes, it's cheating. It's in the name.

cheesing is more of an exploit like getting cybies stuck so you can punch it to death for example.

no one's gonna stop you from doing either, though, so yeah.

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It's cheating. Cheesing is when you use game mechanics to your advantage in a way the designer didn't intend. For example intentionally moving over trigger lines so fast that they don't trigger, or using SR40/SR50 to jump from one area to another to skip stuff, carefully picking up a key without touching triggers around it etc.

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This reminds me when i was a kid and ate cheetos while playing Doom.

My keyboard smelled a lot to cheese, and a friend said i wasn't cheating, i was cheesing!

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Cheating, it's in the name for a reason.

 

But it's also your game, and your way of doing things.

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Using cheat codes is cheating. Cheesing is when you use the mechanics and map design to make things easy in an unintended way. Like running back really fast in an arena so you can door-camp monsters that the mapper intended you to fight head on in a closed arena, carefully picking up kicks to not trigger lines, using rocket-jumping to skip a large chunk of the map.

 

Now that I think about it... a lot of speedrunning tricks can be used to cheese games. I should really learn how to do that since cheesing is one my favorite things to do in doom.

 

Also cheat codes may be cheating but no one's judging or stopping you from using them so use it if you want.

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Cheesing: exploiting a flaw or imbalanced mechanic of game to give yourself an unfair advantage.

Cheating: Breaking rules for an unfair advantage. If cheats are inbuilt does that mean they're cheats? Yes.

Hacking: Using external software or modifying the very game files itself to give you an unfair advantage.

 

Yes, using cheat codes on classic doom is cheating.

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I include the following in the 'cheating' definition:

 

Using the obvious 'cheat codes' (idclip, IDDQD, etc) to complete a map.

 

2. Using these codes in a preliminary run through, to 'get a feel' for the layout and nature of a map, even if you don't use them in your final playthrough.

 

3. Consulting a walkthrough or YouTube video to pick up information or solve puzzles etc. Even reading a review of the WAD or a map within it could come under this heading, if it provides such information.

 

Funnily enough, I don't regard saving within a level as cheating, though I suspect many do. There's no way I want to restart a tough level maybe a dozen times, getting bored out of my mind with replaying earlier stuff that I've already done and which no longer provides much of a challenge. Likewise I often don't want to spend an hour or more on a huge level in order to finish it in one sitting. Of course I do occasionally make multiple saves in a short space of playing time in exceptionally difficult circumstances, as I suspect many other people do. I've never seen the official definition of 'save scumming', but I assume it refers to that last situation.

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If you panic when your back's against a wall and smash in IDCHOPPERS to save you I'm not going to cast dispersion, cheese or any other kind of comestible you can cut with a chainsaw. You're actually a champion of the game. More power to you.

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23 minutes ago, Summer Deep said:

Funnily enough, I don't regard saving within a level as cheating, though I suspect many do. There's no way I want to restart a tough level maybe a dozen times, getting bored out of my mind with replaying earlier stuff that I've already done and which no longer provides much of a challenge. Likewise I often don't want to spend an hour or more on a huge level in order to finish it in one sitting. Of course I do occasionally make multiple saves in a short space of playing time in exceptionally difficult circumstances, as I suspect many other people do. I've never seen the official definition of 'save scumming', but I assume it refers to that last situation.

 

Funny you should mention save-scumming. I actually tried to move away from doing that but then realized I don't have as much fun playing a level with no/limited saves. So now, I just save-scum plenty since it's more fun for me that way. Recently finished Holy Hell with Save scumming and it was really fun. As for whether or not it's cheating or not, I'm kinda on the fence about that since it doesn't feel like cheating on the same extent as using cheat codes but it doesn't feel fair either. Honestly though I don't care. Crouching and mouse-looking on source ports like GZDoom while playing maps not designed for that is also cheating I think but I do it all the time because it's more fun that way for me.

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The points made in the last couple of posts are good ones, I feel. Over time, I've imposed stricter and stricter rules on myself, such as the ones mentioned in my previous post, probably at the expense of having fun. It's got to the point where I consider that I've 'failed' a wad if I don't complete every level 'properly'. It's not too difficult getting through a shorter wad, but with megawads there tends more often than not to be at least one map with a ridiculously difficult puzzle or progression issue - do you spend hours or even days trying to work it out? In fact, I reckon I've only 'legitimately ' completed around ten of the fifty-plus megawads I've played, by these standards. I got stuck on MAP16 of this month's Megawad Club challenge, and initially saw no point in continuing with the wad. Since then, I've gone back to it and done a few more maps, but I've got to confess it doesn't feel the same - a lot of the tension and challenge has gone.

 

But yes, enjoying the game should be the priority!

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22 minutes ago, Zulk RS said:

Funny you should mention save-scumming. I actually tried to move away from doing that but then realized I don't have as much fun playing a level with no/limited saves.

 

Yeah save as much as you want, who cares? I like to save if I've overcome a particularly hairy combat scenario or I've made some significant progress I don't wish to repeat if I die. At the end of the day, there's no right or wrong way to play. Doom it up your way, baby... using cheat codes is cheating though hehehehe

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+1 for save scumming here as well.

 

I do it whenever I feel like it, even if that implies saving every 30 seconds in a ludicrous fight. Originally I attempted to impose stricter and stricter rules on myself to get better, but that has mostly failed because my skill ceiling is just too low. It was also stressing me out too much and I have absolutely far too much stress in my life, down to the point I've developed issues. And of course, all of this was at the expense of my own fun.

 

I've said it before but at any rate, I'm at a point in life where "being good at games" is the least of my "concerns". I want to sit or lay down to play something and have fun in doing so, if it turns into another activity I'm not enjoying and just makes me rage there's no point in struggling in such futility. Games are supposed to be fun first and foremost, at least to me they are, especially since I gain absolutely nothing from them, and I see no point in playing anything if there's zero fun involved, I've got other frustrating activities to spend my time on.

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+1 to the other definitions above. Cheesing is manipulating the existing rules of the game to gain an advantage unintended by the developers. 

 

Cheating is adding whole new rules to give yourself an unfair advantage, whether that's from built-in cheat codes, dev commands, or hacking/modding the game. 

 

Save-scumming is neither cheating nor cheesing, because it is an existing, intended mechanic. id put in the Quick Save and Quick Load buttons for a reason. Whether you think it makes playing a map too easy is entirely up to you, but it's not an unintended advantage in any way.

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5 hours ago, Dr.Ferret said:

If the codes were put in by the developers is it cheating or cheesing?

It clearly is cheating. How could anybody possibly believe it isn't?

 

Cheesing is when you exploit for example a design flaw in the game to gain some manner of tangible advantage. Broadly speaking.

 

Cheating is when you enter for example a code which alters the game's behaviour in your favour into a game - that said code was put into intentionally. Also broadly speaking.

 

IDDQD and such codes are not a design flaw, they have been put into - and left in - the game by the developers on purpose, so that you can by-pass some, or all of this game's rules. That's why it's called cheating, as in breaking the rules.

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If cheat codes are cheating then why did they put them in the game? Checkmate atheists.

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18 minutes ago, Wagi said:

If cheat codes are cheating then why did they put them in the game? Checkmate atheists.

 

Because sometimes it's fun to cheat, and also it can be useful for things like getting un-stuck, warping to a specific level, and various testing purposes. What I'm saying is, the spirits of iD gave us free will.

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If the name doesn't convince you they are cheating nothing will. There is nothing to change your opinion here. 

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I think the only person who can talk about cheesing here is @Gustavo6046!
So please, pal!
Grant us with your prescense!
 

or in other words!

 

Gustavo6046! I choose you!

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God mode, all weapons/ammo and keys is cheating no matter what. Noclip has a very specific use if you don't use it to cheat (getting stuck because of accidentally trapping one's self because of linedef fuckery, see E3M2) otherwise if you use it to bypass something you should be able to solve then that's cheating too.

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I don't think several of the cheats are actually cheats, like idmus or idclev... they're actually pretty handy when it comes to utility. And if a map maker is exceptionally lame, idbehold can allow you to enjoy otherwise bullshit custom maps, like the kind that don't give you enough damn rad suits.

 

Now obviously if you get carried away and nuke the whole progression of the game with a cheat like god mode or idkfa, that's pretty much as obvious a cheat as it gets.

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Here's my take on it.

 

Cheesing

Using in-game exploits or techniques to make certain things easier or faster to do. An example would be using a straferun to skip part of a level. You didn't have to put in any codes or use commands. Save scumming also falls under this category, since it's simply an abuse of the built-in save system. In the context of Doom, I'd say jumping, crouching and free-look are forms of cheesing the classic formula but are not hard cheats.

 

Cheating

Using in-game codes or console commands in order to gain an obvious advantage against the enemies. Codes like IDDQD and IDKFA are cheat codes. Using commands like noclip and god are cheats. These are not things you can get in-game naturally through effort, so they are cheats.

 

Hacking

Using external software or modifying game files outside of the game in order to do one or more of the above. For example, cheaters in online games I would classify as hackers because they are using aim hacks, wall hacks, speed hacks, whatever. When you download a trainer it's a form of a hack. It doesn't mean you have to possess hacking knowledge yourself.

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Stuff like IDDQD and IDCLIP is obviously cheating, but I think there is one exception: IDCLEV. Sure, it lets you skip levels, but it's also a convenient way to play levels from a pistol start. Since I pistol start just about every map that I play, I find myself using IDCLEV quite frequently. This generally makes things harder anyway.

 

1 hour ago, Hellektronic said:

I don't think several of the cheats are actually cheats, like idmus or idclev... they're actually pretty handy when it comes to utility. And if a map maker is exceptionally lame, idbehold can allow you to enjoy otherwise bullshit custom maps, like the kind that don't give you enough damn rad suits.

 

I was with you until idbehold, which is giving you advantages you're not supposed to have. I understand cheating if a map is actually bullshit (which probably isn't the case if you're complaining about rad suits) but it's better to call it what it is. Admittedly, I've used IDDQD and IDKFA just to explore levels for a bit if I expect them to be too hard for me, like some Sunder levels.

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