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doom guy66

Wolf 3d would using a map be cheating

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In wolf 3d would you consider using a map with a source port cheating because you could've bought the hint book and looked at the maps and find the secrets with it

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43 minutes ago, Smouths said:

I mean, there was one in SNES Wolf3D, and John Carmack even added one to the iOS port, so I'd say nah.

cool so now  I can use my map in ecwolf and not feel like a cheater

 

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Posted (edited)

Yes, because the challenge of navigating the levels without a map is integral to the gameplay, and arguably factored in to the design of the levels. You're literally lowering the difficulty level of the game by using a map, which is no different than using IDBEHOLDA or IDBEHOLDL or something to make it easier to navigate a Doom level.

 

A hint book is different and arguably not cheating because the book does not physically interface with the game in any way, Even still, many people try to beat games with as few hints as possible to minimize any feeling of cheating.

 

I mean, play however you like, but let's not pretend that you're getting the full gameplay experience from 1992 because you're not.

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nope. not cheating. Wolf isn't about the maziness, it's about the enemy placement. So even if you know where the right room is, you have to be hyper-aware of the enemies, since they can take you out in 1 second. using a map is fine, just be prepared for a great battle in every room.

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Posted (edited)

When I fist properly played through Wolf3D in the 90's, there were already loads of "full level automap" printouts to look at with help navigating the levels. If you want the game to be more grindy and unfun you can play without the map, but I found it moved the game many notches up.

 

Besides, ECwolf's map (which is identical to the SNES version from 1994 iirc) only shows areas you've already seen on the map, so the "it's cheating" argument makes no sense in ECwolf's case. It's more like a reminder of where you've already been - it doesn't actually show any progress you haven't made, other than making a handful of secrets a bit more obvious due to how secrets work in Wolf.

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Well, even during playtesting, I use a map, but it's kind of that I need to playtest whether it's 100%-able, so I just want to save time by not pressing all the walls, or sometimes you have those screw-you-out secrets.
 

Casual blind play though, I don't need a map to navigate since they are just within 64x64.

 

To be honest though, do you care whether this is cheating in somebody else's eyes? You can play however you like.

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ECWolf's map makes Wolfenstein a much improved experienced.

 

I wouldn't consider it cheating, it's an improved feature. Especially when playing the Spear of Destiny Expansions. The map makes them actually somewhat fun to play now, instead of being an endless search for hidden walls with no true identifying landmarks.

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whatever makes it more fun for you to play. If getting lost in flat repetitive labyrinths sounds boring use the map, who cares about how 'difficult' something is. Having fun is what playing the game is about.

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Posted (edited)

No, because various ports had one, and the devs (Carmack) themselves added one too, so it makes the whole point of "using automaps in this game is cheating because it didn't originally have one" entirely moot.

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Quality of life features added to subsequent official versions of the game are not cheats.

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Capcom added an auto-fire function to recent Mega Man re-releases. I still consider it cheating. Future re-release features don't necessarily indicate whether something is cheating.

 

That being said, I doin't think an automap is cheating in a game that didn't originally contain it, at least not in the case of Wolfenstein 3D. If anything, it makes the game a heck of a lot easier to bear.

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1 minute ago, chungy said:

Capcom added an auto-fire function to recent Mega Man re-releases. I still consider it cheating.


I'd consider that an overdue accessibility option since I can personally no longer manually hit a fire button 10x per second like I used to be able; resulting from getting RSI in my right hand in February. To-mah-to versus to-may-to, I guess.

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I absolutely refuse to consider "tedium" to be an important and sacred part of game balance.

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The map is technically official, and the game never provides any method of providing a full map so you still have to find pushwalls. If you're playing in ECWolf you can use the automap since it's available and doesn't harm the experience whatsoever.

Now using A and D to sidestep left and right would be cheating since you aren't suppose to be able to reliably circle strafe like in Doom and you do risk nullifying encounters like that. So I make my A and D turn left and right.

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wolf3d originally had a map in a beta version, but it was cut from the final game. though i don't know if it was a dev tool or an auto map like ecwolf

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It really depends. If I'm playing Vanilla Wolf: Yes. If Im playing any Wolf3d Mods/Map packs designed for ECWolf or LZWolf: No.

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Posted (edited)

Damn, you are lazy and can't handle Wolfenstein. The game is supposed to be played without the automap because you're supposed to train your orientation skills! Yeah, that's possible even with the simple engine. You can draw a map on paper all you like, but you probably won't do it -- or you'll make a simpler schematic, which is a cool way to think a problem through! And you can say that the automap is just an automation of your drawing on paper, but it really trivializes the concept. Oppressive levels like E2F8 or E5F6, 7 won't be the same. You need to pick up the hints from what you see! Unlike in Doom, in WW2 you couldn't just have a mobile computer with you updating the map as you go!

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3 hours ago, cambreaKer said:

wolf3d originally had a map in a beta version, but it was cut from the final game. though i don't know if it was a dev tool or an auto map like ecwolf


Interesting, the engine supported quite a few things that never made it in, like textured flats (seen in Blake Stone) and animated tiles (like in Catacomb 3D). Dropped for cleanliness and optimization sake, which is why we're fortunate pushwalls were even added in the first place.
 

16 minutes ago, printz said:

Damn, you are lazy and can't handle Wolfenstein. The game is supposed to be played without the automap because you're supposed to train your orientation skills! Yeah, that's possible even with the simple engine. Oppressive levels like E2F8 or E5F6, 7 won't be the same. You need to pick up the hints from what you see!


Tbh I don't have the same lack of spacial awareness that a lot of players seem to have with this game, but I will say if given the option to have an automap I'd much prefer it. Otherwise if it isn't there I'm not going to bitch, not everything will run under ECWolf but whatever does means I get to use the automap if I want to.

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28 minutes ago, printz said:

Damn, you are lazy and can't handle Wolfenstein. The game is supposed to be played without the automap because you're supposed to train your orientation skills! Yeah, that's possible even with the simple engine. You can draw a map on paper all you like, but you probably won't do it -- or you'll make a simpler schematic, which is a cool way to think a problem through! And you can say that the automap is just an automation of your drawing on paper, but it really trivializes the concept. Oppressive levels like E2F8 or E5F6, 7 won't be the same. You need to pick up the hints from what you see! Unlike in Doom, in WW2 you couldn't just have a mobile computer with you updating the map as you go!

I mean, I can beat it without a map, it’s just more tedious. Plus there are loads of games with maps that only get uncovered as you discover those areas, just like in SNES/ECwolf. It’s just a reminder of where you’ve been - Plus, BJ could be carrying a paper and pencil to write down reminders of where he’s been even in WWII, I know you’re saying the map trivialises that, but the game itself also trviliazes sprinting for example - should you stop running in game just because IRL a person could never run that fast, especially without a breather? And for one more plus, no actual WWII soldier could take down an entire multi story castle full of soldiers and most stones aren’t blue, and they wouldn’t have had electronic sliding doors, and so on and so on.. so we can just toss realism right out the window in this case!

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5 hours ago, chungy said:

Capcom added an auto-fire function to recent Mega Man re-releases.

 

Oh so they developed some sanity? You know if they actually added 8 way firing on top I would maybe actually enjoy playing Megaman games because they wouldn't be an endless cavalcade of hitting jump then fire. 

 

As for Wolfenstein 3D, eh, I don't really play it because I don't think its enjoyable to play and is just too basic. Automap probably would help with navigation though. 

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The Megaman games would be insultingly easy if you could fire in 8 directions. 

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6 minutes ago, Ajora said:

The Megaman games would be insultingly easy if you could fire in 8 directions. 

 

Maybe so but they'd be a hell of a lot less tedious. It's always been the reason I tire of them really fast. 

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Posted (edited)

The later NES and the SNES Megaman games help remove the tedium in other ways, mainly dashing and walljumping as well as all the various weapons you can get from beating bosses. Megaman 2 is often called the best of the series but I have a hard to going back to it after the "less tedious and more fun in every way I can think of" MMX games. 1-3, anyway.

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Posted (edited)
On 8/22/2020 at 5:49 PM, AndrewB said:

Yes, because the challenge of navigating the levels without a map is integral to the gameplay, and arguably factored in to the design of the levels. You're literally lowering the difficulty level of the game by using a map, which is no different than using IDBEHOLDA or IDBEHOLDL or something to make it easier to navigate a Doom level.

 

A hint book is different and arguably not cheating because the book does not physically interface with the game in any way, Even still, many people try to beat games with as few hints as possible to minimize any feeling of cheating.

 

I mean, play however you like, but let's not pretend that you're getting the full gameplay experience from 1992 because you're not.

 

The first 3 eps of Wolf 3D are ok without a map, but from ep 4 onwards through all 3 Spear of Destiny map packs, automap is helpful because getting lost is a near certainty.  Spear of Destiny Misson Pack 2: Return to Danger is particularly difficult to navigate without it.

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This is a question I've struggled with myself, but at the end of the day to me it boils down to "it makes the game actually playable for me." My spatial awareness is borderline nonexistent, so samey labyrinths with no landmarks make it hard for me to play, despite my enjoyment of the core gameplay. An automap remedies that, and as others have said it was in the contemporary SNES port so I don't feel that guilty about it (maybe a little...). If you want a more authentic map experience though, whip out the graph paper. Someday I want to try that, it sounds kind of fun, honestly.

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20 minutes ago, Pokemanic33 said:

This is a question I've struggled with myself, but at the end of the day to me it boils down to "it makes the game actually playable for me." My spatial awareness is borderline nonexistent, so samey labyrinths with no landmarks make it hard for me to play, despite my enjoyment of the core gameplay. An automap remedies that, and as others have said it was in the contemporary SNES port so I don't feel that guilty about it (maybe a little...). If you want a more authentic map experience though, whip out the graph paper. Someday I want to try that, it sounds kind of fun, honestly.

 

*Lupin the Third disguises himself as an SS officer and navigates all the levels without killing anyone and without needing automap.*

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Posted (edited)

Good question. I would say do what makes it fun for you. I have been playing Wolfenstein 3D long before ECWolf came into existence, so I'm use to not using an automap. I've also played the games enough to memorize a lot of the maps. Many here can say they've done just that for Doom, so there's no real reason you couldn't do it for Wolf 3D if you truly wanted to, but this isn't for everyone and a map view option in game or a map print out (be it literally printed out, saved to your mobile, or looking at a physical copy of the hint book) can enhance the experience for those that want that feature. 

If you want to play without a map view, then you already know what to do, just keep playing and exploring (practice makes perfect), but what about if you want to use a map?

 

So if you want to play with a map view, there's actually a few ways to do this. I'll start with DOS (Wolf 3D and Spear) and SDL (Wolf 3D and Spear) options, and then EC/LZWolf options...

 

DOS and SDL: You can try to run the game with one of the command lines (create a text file, save it as a .bat file.) below that corresponds with the version you intend to run:

Wolf3D --goobers
SOD --debug
Wolf4SDL --goobers
SOD4SDL --debug

Then, when you are in the actual game, meaning you've selected your episode and difficulty; press Shift+Alt+Backspace all together to enable Debug mode. A message will display that tells you it worked. Press Tab+O to display an overlay map. You can't view it while moving around, but it is the "official" way of doing this without digging into the source code. The DOS versions you will have to make sure you are not using the Apogee version, because I'm pretty sure they disabled the debug commands in that version (steam and GOG I think uses Activision or GT version so it should be fine), but it should work just fine under Wolf4SDL with any version. It's not the most detailed map overlay but you can see enemy positions, secrets, etc. 


There are other alternative options with the DOS and SDL versions if you are interested in making a more advanced map overlay (which was actually the original overlay found in an alpha version, so they intended to have a map view all along but couldn't fix the bugs), which you can read about here. Please note that this requires doing source code editing. I'm not sure if there is currently a pre-built EXE with this added in that you can just drop the WL6 files in with, so I really only mention this to show that one, it's not cheating to use a map, and two, this is the way it should've been implemented from the beginning. 

Alternatively, you could use the hint books for Wolfenstein 3D and Spear of Destiny. You could track down physical copies, or you could save these PDFs to your phone for quick viewing, or wherever you prefer. You could even print them out for yourself. Also, here's the Wolf 3D manual and the Spear of Destiny manual for those interested.

EC/LZWolf: Simply run EC/LZWolf and go to options, and you can configure the map to your liking. You can make it to where it is more like the Doom or ROTT map view, or you can have it overlay. This requires no modifications on your end to get it working, just a few settings configurations like you'd do with any Doom source port. 

That's all there is to it. 
 

You could also view the maps with a Wolf 3D map editor like HWE (Havoc Wolf Editor), WDC, ChaosEdit, Mapedit, etc. and export the map files as BMPs if that’s your thing. This works for any version of the game. 

So, in conclusion, it's not cheating. It would've been implemented in a very similar way to ROTT's mapview if they could've figured the bugs out, but even the debug mode still has a way to view the entire map the player is currently on. EC/LZWolf added it in as a feature. 

 

Also someone stated earlier that there's no left or right strafe keys, which is true, but if you are playing keyboard+mouse you could still use WASD, just A and D turn left and right until you press the right-mouse button, which essentially turns them into strafing keys if you keep the button held down. There is actually a few ways to get true WASD control in DOS and SDL (lurk on that forum I linked earlier and you'll find the threads for that), but it takes a little bit of user tinkering. ECWolf again added it in as a feature. 

Edited by Gerolf

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