Jump to content
Search In
  • More options...
Find results that contain...
Find results in...
DCG Retrowave

DOOM 87: The Lost World (Beta Release) for DOOM II - Vanilla-compatible maps.

Recommended Posts

1 hour ago, Doomkid said:

"Way Sub" made me lol, loving the development!

I demand that every Subway must change their name to Waysub immediately :D

Share this post


Link to post

Software Update 😲

 

 

This is the super secret map for the upcoming full release of DOOM 87: The Lost World :D

 

Also, all MIDI music in this video was recorded on my Roland SC-88 :)

Edited by DCG Retrowave

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, DCG Retrowave said:

 

 

 

This is the super secret map for the upcoming full release of DOOM 87: The Lost World :D

Haha, classic map, can't wait to play with you again.

Share this post


Link to post

DOOM 87's release has been delayed until early 2021.  I've been spending a lot of time enhancing the maps I've previously released in demos and replacing some of my earliest maps with far superior maps.  I'll be releasing more DOOM 87 content very soon, including a replacement for the current demo with the updated versions of those eleven maps.  I'm also planning to release a beta containing all 32 maps once they all exist in a playable state (don't play that beta if you don't want to spoil the epic DOOM adventure :D).

 

Here are some epic screenshots of the improved maps!

 

MAP01: House of Doom

Screenshot_Doom_20201210_112300.png.c03567479ef4598ab3e7bdbea08ae90d.png

Screenshot_Doom_20201210_112317.png.cf43affb48b2efc6bd41ddf8d4671ee4.png

This area leading to the basement looks better now and it's visually identical on both sides, making the fake room-over-room seem more convincing.

Screenshot_Doom_20201210_112402.png.9d744b22a65c065d767c560fdfc3e5cc.pngThe door is still visible on the other side of the teleporter to make it seem like we're still in the same place.

Screenshot_Doom_20201210_112433.png.2262aa3389af588dc3fc88354083661c.png

This cabinet is part of the floor by the stairs where the door is.  This is how I managed to extend that space while keeping the layout as accurate as possible :D

 

MAP04: Evil Library

Screenshot_Doom_20201210_114911.png.5e361228bbc47a3a2b1b52e816de4c1a.png

This outside area actually has some detail now :D

 

MAP07: The Ball Game

Screenshot_Doom_20201206_144134.png.b23c5558d7ce0e94274e413b59625cef.png

Nothing new here aside from slightly improved texture alignment, less segs (the seg limit is still being exceeded, but this should be fixed soon :D), and one Pain Elemental in the secret area because I like him :D

 

MAP08: Marketplace

Screenshot_Doom_20201210_111732.png.86fae561ed180ee3a83c491a00d76657.png

Texture alignment, texture usage, and lighting have all been improved here.  (Yes, I cheat to get the best angles for screenshots :D.  I also use GZDoom with the software renderer because I like how easy it is to take these with cheats like "notarget" :D)

Screenshot_Doom_20201210_111721.png.30581d2ff2dd94f8bd47fbff640d4583.png

I added a window in this room for some natural light :D

Screenshot_Doom_20201210_111608.png.730fd2a24c6904dc0d02fdc23a4c4704.png

I placed a chaingunner on the soda machine because views :O

Screenshot_Doom_20201210_111554.png.57542df9229ac9c6cdd2ad0841953308.png

Screenshot_Doom_20201210_111635.png.ac221db357723eb3e9816bb9c8f786b0.png

Screenshot_Doom_20201210_111706.png.5758183b28dc7d92759a20cca079736e.png

I like this :D

 

MAP11: Arch-Ville

Screenshot_Doom_20201206_144325.png.fe2f782a4965f80c5ee77cc9191a637a.png

Much nicer looking :D

Screenshot_Doom_20201206_144347.png.1528826a3bafe79ac8ad4c95f820f066.png

The snow fortress thing in the distance is the exit.

Screenshot_Doom_20201206_144404.png.9242e2337471ccc350a5ed281c9b03b0.png

Scary :O

Screenshot_Doom_20201206_144422.png.26d1824c053079d192a3a265a87fd24c.png

These Arch-viles raise up instantly now.  As soon as you press that switch, the invisible walls surrounding them disappear rather than slowly lower to the ground like in previous versions.  I discovered how to make platforms instantly raise and lower while constructing my first vanilla room-over-room bridge :D

Screenshot_Doom_20201206_144454.png.65be65eecaf9fd97f6fb0f0c7f44c7a1.png

The stairs now use different textures so you can see them better.  The rock stairs were less obvious, especially when you're running fast to escape the Arch-viles :O

Screenshot_Doom_20201206_144631.png.01669f74029b70958cf13479f71529b7.png

Screenshot_Doom_20201206_144719.png.48d1f0ce7e8524c7a28c0918820f33a8.png

This building looks good now :D

Screenshot_Doom_20201206_144725.png.29b485f6a019ac3335b4d543ed34aa75.png

Screenshot_Doom_20201206_144753.png.a0d3ae7a67c87fa1b84c4daf7371ba9e.png

I added some traps in the maze.  Parts of the wall just vanished to reveal two more Archies :O

Screenshot_Doom_20201206_144944.png.6f8a034ee906bf39eb023a6c2274a2cf.png

Screenshot_Doom_20201206_145022.png.72b8b42d36f0f0d639dcc58098184225.png

Do not die :D

Screenshot_Doom_20201206_145218.png.3d1a0c090e632a46fe04bfd80e3a5201.png

This teleporter leads to "The Heck Dimension" :O

 

 

 

I'll post the remaining screenshots in a separate post because this one is getting quite long and the 1920x1200 screenshots take up a lot of screen space :D

Share this post


Link to post

More screenshots!

 

MAP15: Hall of Memes

Screenshot_Doom_20201205_224502.png.d339b01a6a689db4317c63eaa3e9bf56.png

This map used to look really basic.  It's one of my earliest maps so that makes sense, but now it's really epic :D

Screenshot_Doom_20201206_143640.png.c0e8ddcfa29e3d497819da46637c85b8.png

Oof :O

Screenshot_Doom_20201210_121747.png.ad7faf03cceecc40c8f1b8c40ddb5684.png

This switch lowers the wall in front of the player instantly now.  This makes a nightmare/UV fast run more doable :D

Screenshot_Doom_20201210_121807.png.5f12472071321ddd7d10a435e201a15a.png

Screenshot_Doom_20201205_224632.png.ad2aba91e205b058895ccc75bb8f5e4d.png

I almost died :O.  I playtest all of my maps at least 100 times (I require myself to do this for quality assurance :D) so it's pretty epic when they're still challenging for me :D

Screenshot_Doom_20201205_224639.png.3cdbe50442c50e2257613d34536fcb84.png

I went boom :O

Screenshot_Doom_20201206_105436.png.d7a8645d99ac226a9928ce887b911424.png

Funny :D

Screenshot_Doom_20201206_143845.png.355e6d45bab99438667ef9eaebacaf24.pngScreenshot_Doom_20201206_143835.png.9fbe89cbb35a7155aab2953f88511307.png

Oh yeah, the secret exit has been improved.  I won't show it here, but I will give some advice.  Make sure you have enough health left to survive an Arch-vile's attack :D

 

MAP19: Surrounded

Screenshot_Doom_20201210_122717.png.591cb0b795088346d61f03bb1e2d756a.png

As always, the ledge is not safe for sounds until you pass a certain point.  I added this red line as a visual hint for the player (I should've added this sooner :D).  Once you cross the red line, you can fire a shot without waking up the final Cyberdemon.  You want him to stay asleep so you can telefrag him at the end :D

Screenshot_Doom_20201204_104023.png.c661a630ade4ea13a00842b8f7dffb66.png

Screenshot_Doom_20201204_103355.png.150049f728c7a898f9b40712a04da259.png

Epic!

Screenshot_Doom_20201204_102735.png.1b87cd80b2cd0892449c986a6775d40e.png

Oh, hello there :D

 

 

 

I just hit the total file size limit for attachments so I'll be back soon with screenshots for maps 21, 24, 27, and 31 :D

Share this post


Link to post

Those are great screenshots as always, but next time I suggest that you use spoilers or maybe even resize at least some of the screenshots. Otherwise, can't wait to play!

Share this post


Link to post
35 minutes ago, InDOOMnesia said:

Those are great screenshots as always, but next time I suggest that you use spoilers or maybe even resize at least some of the screenshots. Otherwise, can't wait to play!

Good point!  I'll lower the resolution in the future (I already took the next set of screenshots so I'll just use the spoilers thing :D)

 

I should have an updated release available by December 16th, the same day the first registered version of DOOM was released!  I'm currently finishing a map for another project so I'll try to get them both done soon :D

Share this post


Link to post
18 hours ago, DCG Retrowave said:

Screenshot_Doom_20201210_121747.png.ad7faf03cceecc40c8f1b8c40ddb5684.png

If you make the base/skirting board line monster-blocking, you won't get hover-corpses such as these levitating knight remains.

Share this post


Link to post
On 12/11/2020 at 6:50 AM, Gez said:

If you make the base/skirting board line monster-blocking, you won't get hover-corpses such as these levitating knight remains.

I kinda like that actually so we'll see :D

Share this post


Link to post
On 12/10/2020 at 3:10 PM, DCG Retrowave said:

Screenshot_Doom_20201206_144725.png.29b485f6a019ac3335b4d543ed34aa75.png


I really like this structure, it really looks like something that could be made in the 90's - not necessarily in terms of Doom, but early 3D architectures in general. It's very cool (I like the other shots as well, especially the hellish ones) 

Share this post


Link to post

Just in time for Christmas, I've released a 21-map beta of DOOM 87: The Lost World!  All maps from the previous demo released three months ago have been greatly enhanced and 10 new maps are present in this beta WAD!  I've edited the original post on this thread to share screenshots and other information about this release, so please check that post for more details :D

 

 

Edited by DCG Retrowave

Share this post


Link to post

wooow, 90's whackyness with puzzle elements and your music.

Killer combination!

Sorry if i didn't give enough feedback recently, there are soo much Doom to play lately that i don't even have time for my life :P

Share this post


Link to post

I've played a few levels and I'm enjoying the pacing, level layout and aesthetics. This is definitely great work. I have't been able to look up/down or jump which is disconcerting given how used to gzdoom I've become. Is this a bug or a feature and is there a simple way to regain the z axis? Thank you, great work.  

Share this post


Link to post
6 hours ago, P41R47 said:

wooow, 90's whackyness with puzzle elements and your music.

Killer combination!

Sorry if i didn't give enough feedback recently, there are soo much Doom to play lately that i don't even have time for my life :P

So much DOOM to play and never enough time to play it all :D

 

No worries!  Your feedback is always appreciated :)

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, Nihlith said:

I've played a few levels and I'm enjoying the pacing, level layout and aesthetics. This is definitely great work. I have't been able to look up/down or jump which is disconcerting given how used to gzdoom I've become. Is this a bug or a feature and is there a simple way to regain the z axis? Thank you, great work.  

Thanks for the feedback!  I'm glad you're enjoying the WAD so far :)

 

Freelook, jumping, and crouching were all intentionally disabled to ensure that gameplay in ZDoom is close to how the WAD plays in Vanilla DOOM.  I didn't want players to have significant gameplay advantages compared to players using Vanilla-compatible ports and Vanilla DOOM itself.  For example, jumping on MAP07 would let you beat the map in approximately one second since you could reach the exit switch right at the start.  Obviously, this would give ZDoom/GZDoom users a huge advantage.  Since jumping is not a feature in the original DOOM engine, it can be considered cheating on maps that were designed with vanilla gameplay in mind.  Certain compatibility settings are also enforced (especially the Lost Soul limit and monsters being unable to cross dropoffs) because some maps would be completely broken otherwise.

 

Thanks again for playing and hopefully this explanation answers your questions!

Share this post


Link to post

It warms my heart to see people making wads with dosbox in mind! I will be playing very soon. All maps are done or you still have plans to add more? 

Share this post


Link to post
46 minutes ago, Noiser said:

It warms my heart to see people making wads with dosbox in mind! I will be playing very soon. All maps are done or you still have plans to add more? 

21 maps are complete so far, although some changes will likely be made to some of these maps eventually (such as improved texture alignment for the rock textures on MAP27 and more detail inside the fortress on MAP25).  The remaining 11 either exist in an early form or don't exist at all yet.  I'm taking a break from mapping for DOOM 87 for a week or two to finish a map for another project and record playthroughs of each map in this beta.  After that, work on DOOM 87 shall continue :D

 

DOSBox is definitely a great way to play this WAD!  For anyone who owns older DOS computers like myself, I'd especially recommend real DOS because that is very epic :D

Share this post


Link to post

UV Max, pistol start, no saves playthrough by me :O

 

 

This is also the start of my official artist channel officially becoming both a MIDI music and DOS gaming channel! :D

I plan to record playthroughs of other vanilla WADs like Scythe and Hell Revealed once I've finished the DOOM 87 beta.  I'm playing these on my DOS PC and then replaying the demos in PrBoom+ for the gameplay footage in the videos.  Getting my microphone audio in sync with this format wasn't too difficult either!

 

I got wrecked by my own stupidity and the default demo file size limit in the latest video though :D

 

Share this post


Link to post

UPDATE: MAP07 IS BROKEN ON ZDOOM-BASED PORTS

 

I'll be blunt: MAPINFO has been awful to work with and I wasted my whole evening on the 23rd trying to get it working properly.  All I want is to enforce proper compatibility settings, but apparently I have to also specify every single map in the MAPINFO, what SKY they'll use, and what music they'll use.  Why can't it just assume the DOOM II defaults if I don't specify this?  Why can't I just enforce Doom (Strict) compatibility and disable freelook, jumping, and crouching?  The text screens don't display, which I already knew and I gave up trying to fix it because the WAD was going to miss the Christmas Eve release I had planned.  I thought that was the only thing that was missing, but no, it gets worse.

 

Someone tried to play the WAD in ZDoom 2.8.1.  On MAP07, the walls never lowered when the Mancubi died.  At first, I thought this was a bug with their version of ZDoom, but then I was horrified to discover that this was also happening in GZDoom.  I added the MAPINFO lump at the last minute and never playtested MAP07 in ZDoom/GZDoom again after that because, well, why would I have needed to?  Well, I guess I'm supposed to specify that MAP07 needs to behave like a normal MAP07.  I don't hate ZDoom/GZDoom, but what kind of logic is that?  Why do I need to take all these extra steps the moment a MAPINFO lump is added?  I just wanted to enforce proper vanilla compatibility, but that's too simple I guess.

 

It takes a lot to get me frustrated like this, but I needed to vent because I truly believed the WAD was fully playable in all major ports.  I'm sure some ZDoom/GZDoom users will defend MAPINFO and explain what I did wrong, but is there an easy fix that doesn't require me to specify all of these maps?  To me, this is ridiculous for just some compatibility options, but I have no idea if there's an easier way.  The 12+ hours of research on MAPINFO that I've done didn't lead me to believe that there was a simple and easier way.

 

Quote

 

defaultmap
nocrouch
nojump
nofreelook
compat_limitpain
compat_nopassover
compat_crossdropoff
compat_dropoff
compat_corpsegibs
compat_invisibility
compat_soundtarget
compat_stairs
compat_useblocking
compat_spritesort
compat_missileclip

 

map MAP01 "House of Doom"
titlepatch CWILV00
sky1 RSKY1
next MAP02
secretnext MAP02
music D_RUNNIN

 

 

I won't post the info I typed for the other maps as it's just the same format as MAP01.

 

An updated WAD will be released shortly.  I apologize for the inconvenience to ZDoom/GZDoom users.

Share this post


Link to post
9 minutes ago, DCG Retrowave said:

UPDATE: MAP07 IS BROKEN ON ZDOOM-BASED PORTS

 

I'll be blunt: MAPINFO has been awful to work with and I wasted my whole evening on the 23rd trying to get it working properly.  All I want is to enforce proper compatibility settings, but apparently I have to also specify every single map in the MAPINFO, what SKY they'll use, and what music they'll use.  Why can't it just assume the DOOM II defaults if I don't specify this?  Why can't I just enforce Doom (Strict) compatibility and disable freelook, jumping, and crouching?  The text screens don't display, which I already knew and I gave up trying to fix it because the WAD was going to miss the Christmas Eve release I had planned.  I thought that was the only thing that was missing, but no, it gets worse.

 

Someone tried to play the WAD in ZDoom 2.8.1.  On MAP07, the walls never lowered when the Mancubi died.  At first, I thought this was a bug with their version of ZDoom, but then I was horrified to discover that this was also happening in GZDoom.  I added the MAPINFO lump at the last minute and never playtested MAP07 in ZDoom/GZDoom again after that because, well, why would I have needed to?  Well, I guess I'm supposed to specify that MAP07 needs to behave like a normal MAP07.  I don't hate ZDoom/GZDoom, but what kind of logic is that?  Why do I need to take all these extra steps the moment a MAPINFO lump is added?  I just wanted to enforce proper vanilla compatibility, but that's too simple I guess.

 

It takes a lot to get me frustrated like this, but I needed to vent because I truly believed the WAD was fully playable in all major ports.  I'm sure some ZDoom/GZDoom users will defend MAPINFO and explain what I did wrong, but is there an easy fix that doesn't require me to specify all of these maps?  To me, this is ridiculous for just some compatibility options, but I have no idea if there's an easier way.  The 12+ hours of research on MAPINFO that I've done didn't lead me to believe that there was a simple and easier way.

 

 

I won't post the info I typed for the other maps as it's just the same format as MAP01.

 

An updated WAD will be released shortly.  I apologize for the inconvenience to ZDoom/GZDoom users.

If you don't load a MAPINFO your wad will be threated as on any other port, just loading what is inside the wad, dehacked patch included.

So if you only want to add it to enforce a vanilla setting, well, you have to take all the innecessary steps for the MAPINFO to work correctly, think.

But now that i said it, i made a MAPINFO for the Demonfear MidiPack that only adds Episode selection. It works without problem. So try to just make a MAPINFO with the compatibility settings. It may work without you needing to specify all the map data at all.

Share this post


Link to post
3 minutes ago, P41R47 said:

If you don't load a MAPINFO your wad will be threated as on any other port, just loading what is inside the wad, dehacked patch included.

So if you only want to add it to enforce a vanilla setting, well, you have to take all the innecessary steps for the MAPINFO to work correctly, think.

But now that i said it, i made a MAPINFO for the Demonfear MidiPack that only adds Episode selection. It works without problem. So try to just make a MAPINFO with the compatibility settings. It may work without you needing to specify all the map data at all.

I tried having only the compatibility settings in the MAPINFO and it had no effect.  I could still jump, crouch, freelook, and use map-breaking features like monsters getting pushed off dropoffs.  I really wish it was this simple, but I have no idea if this can be done :(

Share this post


Link to post

Better ask in the Doom Editing subforum, i think it will be easier to spot there as there are some forum memebers that are always lurking there.

Share this post


Link to post
Just now, P41R47 said:

Better ask in the Doom Editing subforum, i think it will be easier to spot there as there are some forum memebers that are always lurking there.

Thanks for the advice!  Hopefully this can be resolved soon.

 

 (Of course, if everyone just read the README.TXT, forcing certain options wouldn't be necessary :D)

Share this post


Link to post

UPDATE: MAP07 Has been fixed on ZDoom-based ports.  I still strongly recommend playing this mapset in a more vanilla-compatible source port (or vanilla DOOM itself), but this issue has been resolved for anyone wanting to use ZDoom/GZDoom.  If you aren't using a ZDoom-based port, there is no need to download the updated WAD if you already downloaded the 21-map beta release.  The only changes apply to the MAPINFO lump.  All 21 maps are unmodified so demos will be 100% compatible.  The updated download link can be found in the original post on this thread and below this message.

 

Happy New Year, EPIC DOOMERS!!!

 

https://www.doomworld.com/applications/core/interface/file/attachment.php?id=110229

Share this post


Link to post

Important Update regarding DOOM 87's vanilla compatibility

 

DOOM 87: The Lost World is very close to completion.  Some of the maps in the beta have once again been enhanced and five new maps have been mostly completed.  However, as I continue to improve my mapping abilities, my designs have gone from pushing vanilla's static limits to completely exceeding them on several maps.  DOOM 87 was originally going to be fairly reasonable for casual players (easier than Plutonia and similar in difficulty to DOOM II and TNT), but my current WIP builds make Plutonia look easy by comparison.  Lots of maps contain over 100 monsters in a single area, meaning that the sprite limit is constantly exceeded and many monsters will be invisible.  On some maps, this isn't too bad, but on others, it makes the slaughtermap fights very confusing to deal with in vanilla.

 

New MAP25: Hellspawn Fortress

Screenshot_Doom_20210211_105309.png.fa75126444a27a367488b4cfe93c34cd.png 

 

MAP25 was scrapped in favor of a much better looking and absolutely brutal map.  Its ending has 200 monsters in a small arena (the photo above).  From the ledge the player will be standing on while dealing with the monsters on the platform across the water, most of them won't even be visible.  I've already had to compromise on some designs for the sake of optimizing for vanilla, but it's starting to drive me crazy :(

 

New MAP20: Self-Destruction (You have to rescue your voodoo doll before he goes boom :D)

Screenshot_Doom_20210129_103414.png.fc99e612747971c55823d0d559d81866.png

 

Some maps exceed the 256 seg limit and HOMs will be very noticeable.  MAP20 has these self-referencing sector platforms which require another sector to surround them (I place the linedefs as close as possible so the physics of the self-referencing sector don't leak into other areas).  The only way I could keep this layout in vanilla is to add a bunch of walls around everything in this outside area.  The HOMs in this map are quite severe and I love this design too much to change it (I already tried to optimize it a bit, but it barely helped).

 

New MAP16: Demon Jail

Screenshot_Doom_20210222_142531.png.95f5a59918d0d8d70219f44dcb339e14.png

 

Visplane overflows are now a problem on a few maps, even those that don't have very large areas.  The updated MAP16 will easily crash when viewed from various positions.  The savegame overflow affects multiple maps now, although this one bothers me the least since I never use the save feature anyway and this won't crash the game as long as the player is aware that they can't save on those maps (vanilla WADs like Scythe have maps like this as well).

 

I started mapping for vanilla because I wanted to create content that I could experience on my DOS PC.  However, DOS source ports do exist and I've been using DOOM2P.EXE (a patched vanilla DOOM executable with altered static limits) when playing these maps now.  I'm strongly considering switching to limit-removing and optimizing everything for DOOM2P.EXE.  You'll still be able to play in vanilla thanks to that patched executable, but Chocolate Doom will no longer work on some maps.  The problem is that I feel kind of weird calling this limit-removing when several maps will still be fine in unpatched vanilla (MAP01 for example) and most of the maps that exceed limits aren't even going that far over.  I do believe that my maps look good, especially compared to how they looked back in August when I first announced this megawad, but I fear that some players may judge these maps based on their "limit-removing" label.  I'm not going to intentionally start pushing every design to DOOM2P's 1024 visplane limit because I still want these maps to run smoothly on an older DOS machine (well, if you've got a faster Pentium at least :D).

 

So yeah, I'd love to hear some feedback on this possible decision.  I want DOOM 87 to be the best first megawad I can possibly create and I'm personally happy with it as long as it can run in DOOM2P.EXE.  Most players will likely be using a source port anyway (preferably one that's truly vanilla-compatible :D) and my personal recommendation would be PrBoom+.  If you'd like to use a source port on DOS, I'd recommend MBF 2.03 (I can't recommend the new MBF 2.04 because it didn't run properly on my computer.  It's probably a great choice if your setup can run it fine though :D).

 

Thank you for reading this update!

 

DCG Retrowave

Share this post


Link to post
44 minutes ago, DCG Retrowave said:

The problem is that I feel kind of weird calling this limit-removing when several maps will still be fine in unpatched vanilla (MAP01 for example) and most of the maps that exceed limits aren't even going that far over

Just a recommendation, but better decide on what you feel more comfortable. 

If the limits are not esceeded greatly, try to mantain it on vanilla setting.

For a comparison, remember that Hell Revealed high monster density is regarded as kinda sloggish by today standars, but Plutonia is regarded as a high mark on design and difficulty even by today.

 

What i try to say, is that the Casali Bros. touch a milestone on mapping design.

Its not important the monster density, but it placement and how are they use.

 

For example, try to make a vanilla map on Plutonia style. You will notice that you will be able to achieve it without problem, while the Monster density is not that high.

Plutonia most difficult map has a total monster count of just 206 monsters. The maps is pretty tight, the monsters are placed on hard to reach areas around very little manouvering space and not letting the player have a moment to breath.

 

Its your desicion, pal!

But knowing your passion for vanilla setting and that just a few maps would be over it, its just a shame not making it compatible with the original .exe :/

Share this post


Link to post
30 minutes ago, P41R47 said:

Just a recommendation, but better decide on what you feel more comfortable. 

If the limits are not esceeded greatly, try to mantain it on vanilla setting.

For a comparison, remember that Hell Revealed high monster density is regarded as kinda sloggish by today standars, but Plutonia is regarded as a high mark on design and difficulty even by today.

 

What i try to say, is that the Casali Bros. touch a milestone on mapping design.

Its not important the monster density, but it placement and how are they use.

 

For example, try to make a vanilla map on Plutonia style. You will notice that you will be able to achieve it without problem, while the Monster density is not that high.

Plutonia most difficult map has a total monster count of just 206 monsters. The maps is pretty tight, the monsters are placed on hard to reach areas around very little manouvering space and not letting the player have a moment to breath.

 

Its your desicion, pal!

But knowing your passion for vanilla setting and that just a few maps would be over it, its just a shame not making it compatible with the original .exe :/

Thanks for the feedback!

 

Most of DOOM 87's maps focus on difficult encounters with fewer monsters by limiting the player's resources (no BFG for pistol starters on maps that have lower monster counts, for example :D).  I completely agree with Hell Revealed's high monster counts being excessive.  MAP11: Underground Base has like 100 Pinkies in a huge room, but they're trapped by a monster blocking linedef so they are completely harmless and only exist to waste your time.  I got some of them killed by monsters on the ledge, but I had to punch most of them myself before I could enter that room.  DOOM 87's high monster count maps will generally clean themselves out thanks to guaranteed monster infighting and plenty of resources.  One of the maps in the beta was updated with a huge ambush at the end (I won't say which map because spoilers :D) containing over 300 monsters coming out of lowering walls in one big room when you try to grab the red key.  This fight ends in less than 5 minutes thanks to infighting and the BFG.  You just need to survive the insanity and quickly find the invulnerability before it's too late :D.  MAP24 in the beta is quite challenging with only 204 monsters and the style is very similar to Plutonia's Go 2 It (both are remixes of another map, but converted into mini slaughtermaps).

 

So yeah, I fully agree that high monster counts don't automatically equal high difficulty.  I always try to get the most out of fewer monsters and feel very satisfied when a room with just a few mid-tier demons ends up being very challenging, at least for the pistol starters :D

 

The main issue is detail.  While the sprite limit can be a nuisance, the real problem is all the HOMs due to the seg limit and the high risk of the game crashing on some maps due to a visplane overflow.  If I switch to focusing on DOOM2P.EXE compatibility, I'd mainly be doing it to preserve my maps in their intended forms.  I'm fine with some compromises, but I'd hate to severely alter what I consider to be my art :O

 

To me, DOOM2P.EXE is still vanilla since absolutely nothing is changed aside from the set values of the static limits.  This is how I've been playing vanilla/limit-removing content since November and while I still love it when a beautiful map runs flawlessly with the limited EXE, I just don't want to ruin the flow of some maps by obstructing the player's view too much.

Share this post


Link to post

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×