If Doom 1 had Doom 2 enemies and the SSG, where would they be introduced?

[VanaheimRanger]

I was looking over this topic by @LiT_gam3r  ...

...when I came up with a question of my own based on many of the responses there.

 

Many people wish that the SSG and Doom II enemies had been present in the first game, it seems.  My question is simple:

 

If id had included all of the Doom II beastiary and the SSG in the first game, but kept the same 3 episode structure, and not changing the Doom 1 introductions which were already made...at what points in the game would those Doom II additions be first introduced?

[Stabbey]

SSG and Hell Knight would probably be introduced in E2M3, replacing the Barons there.

 

Revenant probably introduced in E2M4.

 

Pain Elemental introduced in E3M2 or E3M3.

[VanaheimRanger]

12 minutes ago, Stabbey said:

SSG and Hell Knight would probably be introduced in E2M3, replacing the Barons there.

 

Revenant probably introduced in E2M4.

 

Pain Elemental introduced in E3M2 or E3M3.

I would personally introduce the SSG and HKs in E1M8.  Get rid of the spectres and replace them with 6 HKs to back up the barons.  Give the SSG in a secret to make the fight easier.  Then only use HKs in later maps instead of Barons.

 

Other suggestions sound reasonable :)

[Chip]

Arch-viles in E2M7 would be fun.

[VanaheimRanger]

6 minutes ago, LiT_gam3r said:

Arch-viles in E2M7 would be fun.

Spawning Vats, eh...yea, that'd be a good spot for them, lol.

[taufan99]

Mancubi would probably appear first in:

E2M2 (UV/NM)

E2M3 (HMP)

E2M5 (ITYTD/HNTR)

[Doomkid]

Dis' gameplay would have benefited greatly from a small army of ~8 Arachnotrons on the opposite side of the arena, with all of them having to be killed, not just the SMM.
 

Replace the Pinkies on the upper back perch of E4M2 with 4 Mancubi. That'll really piss people off in that map!

[Robo_Cola]

Sounds like a megawad idea to me.

 

Doom 2 in Doom 1

[taufan99]

1 minute ago, STILES said:

Sounds like a megawad idea to me.

 

Doom 2 in Doom 1

Actually, there's already a gameplay mod for that.

[VanaheimRanger]

11 minutes ago, STILES said:

Sounds like a megawad idea to me.

 

Doom 2 in Doom 1

I may or may not be secretly crowdsourcing research on something...

 

Let's say "may not" to be safe ;)

Edited August 28, 2020 by guitardz

[peach freak]

The PSX port of Doom actually includes Doom II enemies in the Ultimate Doom levels, on E1M1 there is a Pain Elemental in the secret Armor Bonus hallway that you get to by triggering a lift in the zig-zag room.

[Robo_Cola]

1 minute ago, InDOOMnesia said:

Actually, there's already a gameplay mod for that.

Well damn that's excellent!  Thanks for the reference, this will be fun.

[VanaheimRanger]

3 minutes ago, InDOOMnesia said:

Actually, there's already a gameplay mod for that.

That's actually pretty interesting...maybe I will try that out with NEIS or something soon.

[Stabbey]

Mancubi are introduced in E1M8, in the death exit room, so you don't really get a good look or feel for what they do.

[baja blast rd.]

The Super Shotgun alters Ultimate Doom's gameplay dynamics so much it's tough to find a comfy fit. But let's place it at the very end of E2M9: Fortress of Mystery, staggered evenly between the plasma rifle and BFG's arrivals in the episodic timeline. Its first non-secret appearance would be all the way in the next episode, E3M2: Slough of Despair. Early Inferno is full of these odd clumps of monsters that are begging to be chewed up by the SSG. 

 

Both Mancubi and Arachnotrons are unsightly mixtures of flesh and tech corruption (okay, I lied, the arachnotron is pretty cute), so their storyline begins in The Shores of Hell. Being thicc, neither feels quite at home in the corridors common to this episode, and I want to preserve E2M4's current feel. Again, E2M9: Fortress of Mystery comes to the rescue. This duo replaces its cacodemons and barons, fulfilling the infighting dynamic even better. Their non-secret intro is E2M7: Spawning Vats, whose machinery loosely explains their synthesized origin.

 

The Hell Knight serves as a miniboss in the exit room of E3M1: Hell Keep, replacing all of those imps, after which it becomes a recurring mook the way it is in Doom 2. 

 

The Pain Elemental is the easiest -- E3M4: House of Pain! It gets its first serious threatening role in E3M6: Mt. Erebus, where the open spaces allow it to wreak havoc on your ammo and your 386. 

 

The Archvile, made of fire, is a hellish being, and you can sort of think of it as a priest of wickedness, so there is no better introduction than E3M5: Unholy Cathedral, alongside the Revenant, which also makes its debut. The central arena is especially well suited to this tandem.  

 

After all of that, we are left with the Chaingunner and the Megasphere, and I like these as E4M3: Sever the Wicked introductions, where they spice up that highly forgettable middle stretch of Thy Flesh Consumed with some much needed... anything. Following an E4M1 and E4M2 that is unchanged, Doom 2 content makes common appearances, and episode 4 feels a lot fresher for that.

 

If you want to introduce these last two in Doom 1 proper, then the chaingunner appears first in E2M2: Containment Area's hidden passages and gradually makes more overt appearances throughout the episode. Like most of these Doom 2 backports, it is always treated as a rare monster, at least compared to its actual Doom 2 frequency. The megasphere debuts in E2M8: Tower of Babel, where it does the same thing as the starting soulsphere and mega armor but looks cool. 

Edited August 29, 2020 by ‹rd›

[VanaheimRanger]

7 minutes ago, ‹rd› said:

Well thought out response.

You definitely have some solid opinions, here.  And I agree with a lot of it.  However, I do believe it would be fine to throw the SSG into the mix earlier as we have a lot of more tanky enemies about than the usual Doom 1 fare.  Also, this was based on the original 3 episode structure leaving out E4.  I think the Chaingunner could be used sparingly in E1.  As for the Megasphere...I hadn't even thought of that at all, lol.

[StalkerZHS]

they'd be introduced as they are in the psx version

[Chip]

Oh, actually, I first thought there was a Revenant in E1M8's death room. I thought they put it in there as an introduction for the next episode, but never found them. It wasn't until I finished the game that I realized that they were only in DOOM 2. funny that I thought that, though.

[VanaheimRanger]

12 minutes ago, StalkerZHS said:

they'd be introduced as they are in the psx version

There are 8 levels removed from the Ultimate Doom levels in PSX Doom, making it kind of pointless to use as a guide for this.  Also, a Chaingunner and Pain Elemental in the first level is not really in the spirit of Doom 1.  Let's also not forget that PSX Doom was developed by Williams, who had slightly different design philosophies than id.

[Dark Pulse]

5 hours ago, guitardz said:

I would personally introduce the SSG and HKs in E1M8.

I'd argue against that - Plasma Rifle and BFG weren't introduced until E2 and E3, after all.

 

Something like this would make SSG an early E2 pickup (probably replacing the Plasma Rifle in E2M1), Plasma a late E2 pickup (i.e; E2M5 where it's found normally), and keep the BFG at E3M3.

 

Monsters... let's see.

• Chaingunner: E2M1 for sure; start peppering them in throughout E2 really. You're deeper into the bases, so it's a good spot for them.
• Hell Knight: E2M3; replace the Barons, as many have suggested. Double them up, of course.
• Revenant: E3M2; imagine these guys chasing you down throughout the hand part of the map.
• Mancubus: E2M8; the PS1 version did this on Ultra-Violence. Would make dodging that Cyberdemon even harder, and a taste of what's to come.
• Arachnotron: E3M5, as it's the first map that's really got good movement room for them. You COULD argue the southern half of E3M4, but ehh.
• Pain Elemental: E3M1; imagine opening the first door up to THOSE things. Definitely would need more ammo or a chaingun though; a pistol start against a few pissed-off Pain Elementals is a bit unfair.
• Arch-Vile: E3M4; lots of decently long halls and stuff for you to run, terrified, from this guy.
• Wolf SS/Keen: E3M9 if anything. But really they don't fit without the remade Wolf maps.
• Icon of Sin: Also kinda hard to fit... E4M8 if I'm allowed to cheat and count Ultimate Doom. :)

Edited August 29, 2020 by Dark Pulse

[Maximum Matt]

4 hours ago, STILES said:

Sounds like a megawad idea to me.

 

Doom 2 in Doom 1

There's also this one, from Maximum goddamn Doom.

[Dexiaz]

6 hours ago, guitardz said:

Many people wish that the SSG and Doom II enemies had been present in the first game, it seems.  My question is simple:

 

If id had included all of the Doom II beastiary and the SSG in the first game, but kept the same 3 episode structure, and not changing the Doom 1 introductions which were already made...at what points in the game would those Doom II additions be first introduced?

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zdPA7p47FQ

 

[seed]

9 hours ago, StalkerZHS said:

they'd be introduced as they are in the psx version

 

This IMO, for the monsters. The AV would start showing up in E3.

 

But the SSG I am really not seeing working in Doom 1. The whole gameplay was designed without it, and it would completely destroy the balance by trivializing everything, it can only work with some massive adjustments to monster density, usage, and placement, and I'm not seeing that happening without major changes to the levels.

Edited August 29, 2020 by seed

[mrthejoshmon]

PSX Doom did this to a small extent, with the SSG turning up in Ultimate Doom via a secret level, Hell Knights appearing after Phobos Anomaly, Revenants appearing amongst other zombie type enemies (Computer Station if memory serves), Mancubus in maps like MT. Erebus, Pain elementals being hidden inmost of the starting lot...

 

Probably something like what they did.

 

It would've been cool if Ultimate Doom implemented the Doom 2 additions into the originals, think of what it would be like.

[Stabbey]

6 hours ago, seed said:

 

This IMO, for the monsters. The AV would start showing up in E3.

 

But the SSG I am really not seeing working in Doom 1. The whole gameplay was designed without it, and it would completely destroy the balance by trivializing everything, it can only work with some massive adjustments to monster density, usage, and placement, and I'm not seeing that happening without major changes to the levels.

 

This is also why I don't know where the Arachnotrons would go. There aren't many places they would work in Doom 1.

[mankubus]

SSG is a brutal weapon, it would be hell battling demons armed with that. I would leave it as a Doom 2 weapon only and enemies with ssg would show up around map15

[Maes]

Sounds like a good concept for a community project, but good luck distributing any maps, unless some crazy "IWAD copyright"-safe (and IWAD-safe) patching scheme is devised.

 

On the other hand, try imagining Doom II maps with just Doom bestiary and no SSG...

[Dark Pulse]

1 hour ago, Maes said:

Sounds like a good concept for a community project, but good luck distributing any maps, unless some crazy "IWAD copyright"-safe (and IWAD-safe) patching scheme is devised.

id has said in the past that modified id maps are fine and kosher - as long as it's JUST the map data.

 

In other words, don't be putting the textures/sounds/sprites/etc. in your PWAD and it'll be just fine.

 

The problems would be:

 

1) To make it authentic as possible you'd need the original title screen, music lumps, etc.

2) Totally different intermission screens (admittedly not a problem for GZDoom)

3) Doom 2 wouldn't break it into episodes (again, admittedly not a problem for GZDoom)

 

Basically to make it legal-legal, you'd need a base WAD with just the modified maps, and some kind of program that will expect a Doom IWAD that will patch the proper lumps into the base WAD when run by the end user. This would make it legally free and in the clear to even be uploaded to idgames.

[Maes]

Dunno, for some reason modified Doom 1 maps running under DOOM.WAD sound ok-ish, but running under DOOM2.WAD doesn't sound right, even if it's "just the maps", perhaps edited to avoid Doom-exclusive textures and flats. Besides AFAIK current idgames policy prevents from submitting such maps. On places like ZDaemon or that-certain-site-whise-domain-name-shall-not-be-spoken , it's fair game, ok.

[Xerenogan]

While this sounds like a wonky ask, I'm going to say... e3m2.