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Quasar

End of the Doom Slayer's arc?

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In a recent interview Hugo basically said that The Ancient Gods will be the "end of the Doom Slayer's arc". What do you think this means? It could be anything from "we're just going to look at other periods of time or other characters for a while," or anything up to "we're killing one of the most beloved characters of all time off, deal with it." Is Doom without the Doomguy a future possibility? Would the fans accept that if it was tried?

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He meant end of the story arc that started with 2016.  He said that there are more stories to tell and they havn't made the best doom game yet.  So maybe we get DLC3 or a Doom 6 ... or both!

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It's also the perfect oportunity as other people say, to have a more boots on the ground, marine as Doom 1 and 2, but im seriously doubt it.

I feel with Doom  Eternal DLC will take the bridge to start with Doom 6, and that will be the final of the Argent  Energy Arc, and making the Doom Slayer winning again against a other hell, this more a threat that finals ones.

But Doom Slayers sells, and it's different for so many FPS, that im doubt they will kill him. Maybe some long hiatus.

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The quote in question at 1:42

 

 

Quote

What people should know is that this DLC is a two-parter and essentially it is a two-part finale to the story that began in Doom 2016. There are certainly more stories to tell inside the Doom universe, but the arc of this story will end with part 2 of the DLC. This is our “Return of the Jedi” as we like to say.


So yeah, Doom 2016, Eternal, and the Ancient Gods 1&2 will Apparently act as a trilogy of sorts, meaning that whatever id plans for future installments will be a whole new story from the beginning, but most likely still with the Slayer as the protagonist.

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Makes me wonder if Doom 6 would even happen or if the "best Doom game" they have in mind is something too special, it would have to be different from this era of Doom games. (like another reboot somehow)

They're probably thinking about what you can do with current hardware and how better can the next id engine be (specially considering the focus on most game tech is always shiny graphics with too many polygons and characters rendered after real actors, yet you look at a 6th gen game or a somewhat experimental indie game and see stuff that is more impressive) because with the inclusion of giant demons and mechs, they probably dream of doing something that would take years to feel properly realized. (or even other stuff like more abstract and non euclidean-ish geometry level design or maybe having more enemies in a map at once, to get closer to that classic Doom feel while adding newer features)

 

Maybe they'd want to focus on different characters like the Betrayer even if that changes the scope of Doom's DNA a bit too much. (at least after how much marketing they made around the Slayer)

 

Making the best Doom game could lead to a lot of thinking and planning it'd take some while to get the basics done.

In some other thread (or more if i forgot) i sort of brought up this "pipedream" of a game that was sort of a tribute to Doom and its history (and even Doom modding in itself i guess) so i wonder if id would think of something that'd like a collab between them and fans. (all i know is it'd have to be pc exclusive, either due to hardware limitations on other platforms or because of something GPL license related if it were to use bits of Doom's source code)

 

Since Eternal feels different from 2016 and most Doom games had different styles to them, i expect some changes in Doom 6's looks and personality.

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Personally I'd like to see id try their hand at a proper Quake 1 sequel after Doom Eternal's arc is over, if not a new IP

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The specific mention of Star Wars and Return of the Jedi specifically makes me wonder a little if they're going to pull a Star Wars at some point with the Doom franchise. In a sense, we already have the prequels, the original Doom games, but they're not like the star wars prequels as they still focus on the man that became the Doom Slayer. There's still a lot going on in the game's universe, and there's many stories to tell, but I do wonder what Doom would be like if they chose to proceed without our protagonist.

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But the classic Doom games were like the very first entries in a series that mostly existed for id's innovation at the time in gameplay and technology, while the new games are a reboot (soft reboot rather) era from the same studio but with a different team.

I feel like Doom could more logically be compared to some comic book franchises or even a game series like Twisted Metal because of the reiterations it occurred. (specially when comics had different writers and artists throughout years for the same characters and settings)

Knowing that "reiteration" nature through the series (some ports, 64, 3, RPG, 2016/Eternal, maybe even VFR), experimentation and how even something like the large modding/wad scene can be seen as some unofficial "Expanded Universe", simply doing something for Doom is already expanding it, whether or not it even fits some continuity, art direction or lore.

 

Even Eternal feels different from 2016.

How much can be done with Doom can depend whether the new "universe" opens opportunities or even creates some restrictions like "this doesn't work" for something new that could have worked at some level or even existed before.

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Although less likely, we could get installments playing as different characters with their own abilities. Samuel Hayden isn't nor was a simple robot with a man's brain. Could be more hands on in different times. Maybe play as him between Doom 2016 to Eternal's conclusion.

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Not that I think they'll kill off the character or anything, but to the question of "Is Doom without the Doomguy a future possibility", I'm going to point out that we've already had that multiple times over the years. 

 

Doom 2 RPG springs to mind first and foremost (several different characters, one of whom may or may not be the same guy). Doom 3 arguably counts too, as he seems to not be the same as the original guy. Ditto for the marine in Resurrection of Evil. 

 

And then of course, for the bad examples, the two Doom movies. But I suspect no one wants to talk about those....  ( *absolutely lights a match and chucks it into the gasoline tank!* )

 

Like I said, I doubt we'll see him get killed off or anything, but future Doom's starring someone else entirely has been done before, so it could happen again. 

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The story has basically set it up so that he’ll pretty much never be beaten and is destined to kill demons for all of eternity. The DLC is perhaps the end of the story started in 2016 but I doubt his arc will ever truely end, and they probably have plenty of storylines to tell from the past and future.

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I think "The Doomslayers arc" meant the story that started with Doom 2016. Doomguy didn't become "The Slayer" until Doom 2016 (Technically, he became the slayer in the backstory to that game, but it was the first game to tell that part of the story). Prior to that, the Slayer was never named or titled in game, and commonly referred to as Doomguy or Doom Marine or whatever. I think (hope) they are going to do another Doom 64 and have him stay in hell (again) until the next game they decide to do, where he will then find himself in a new world (again) and have to defend it from Hell (again).

 

It just seems like the effort they went through to connect the classic games with the new ones would be wasted if they continue the series without him.

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I think that there are several story-arcs in DOOM.

 

DOOM-DOOM 2 is the Doomguy arc

 

Final DOOM-DOOM 64 is the DOOM Marine Arc

 

DOOM 3 is it's own thing

 

DOOM 2016-Ancient Gods (also the lost levels from the new DOOM 64 port) is the DOOM Slayer Arc

 

Then, there will be another arc. Maybe DOOM Survivor, like DOOM 4 1.0. Or, maybe Bethesda will make DOOM Open-World! Like their Fallout games and Elder Scroll games, DOOM will soon become a game about leveling up and killing too many types of demons and awful voice acting! LoL

 

I think the ID team had a different idea in mind for the DOOM game, but when they noticed that it had all these arenas with a crap-load of enemies, they decided that it would still be amazing (to most it was, not to me). Maybe they'll go back to their old routes of DOOM 1993. I'm excited to see what they do with new games. Maybe expand upon the idea brought up in DOOM 64's Lost Levels, like a pre-sequel. 

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Personally I don't view the classic and modern Dooms as sharing the same universe. I reckon it's more of a relaunch using elements of old Doom but has its own timeline.

 

With Deimos and Earth already invaded within the classics + Icon of Sin appearance the only way to tie the actual games together is multi-dimensional hopping or time travel. I sincerely hope that's not the case as that's lazy writing like in comic books.

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On 9/1/2020 at 11:55 PM, Quasar said:

In a recent interview Hugo basically said that The Ancient Gods will be the "end of the Doom Slayer's arc". What do you think this means? It could be anything from "we're just going to look at other periods of time or other characters for a while," or anything up to "we're killing one of the most beloved characters of all time off, deal with it." Is Doom without the Doomguy a future possibility? Would the fans accept that if it was tried?

I'd love a Doom game with the Betrayer as the main character, in some sort of a redemption arc. Imagine how fucking cool that would be.

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I think in the context of the DLC title and the background lore initially set up in 2016 - the "story arc" they are referencing is about the Doom Slayer having to eventually face off against the Dark Lord of Hell. The Dark Lord was Olivia Pierce's master that set up the 2016 plot. The Dark Lord also struck a deal with the Khan Maykr that set up the Eternal plot. According to Hugo Martin from a QuakeCon interview a while back, we will see the "CEO of Hell" in the upcoming DLCs, so that also supports the theory. This confrontation would also fit into Hugo's "Return of the Jedi" analogy he makes regarding The Ancient Gods - where the Emperor who had been acting in the shadows since A New Hope is at last confronted in the finale of the trilogy. The Dark Lord could fulfill a similar role.

 

Once the Dark Lord is dead, the story that has been set up since 2016, starting with the Dark Lord's mention, would be finished. Just like how the original Star Wars trilogy was finished with the Emperor's defeat (and the Empire's fall shortly after). I imagine there would be  a similar fate for the Dark Lord and the armies of Hell once we finish Part Two of the DLC. From then on, id Software would be free to tackle on new or different story concepts in the Doom universe. I think that could be very exciting since all of newfangled Doom has been defined by remaking or rebooting Classic concepts (Doom 3 and Doom 2016 are a re-telling of Ultimate Doom while Doom Eternal and the canceled Doom 4.0 are a re-telling of Doom II: Hell on Earth). If they choose to continue with this universe once the Dark Lord has fallen, they can enter some unexplored directions for the Doom franchise in terms of game settings and themes.

 

I don't think they'll retire the Slayer though. He is far too popular now to be replaced in a main-series Doom game. However, they could focus on other playable characters in spin-off games (like in Doom VFR).

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39 minutes ago, Chezza said:

Personally I don't view the classic and modern Dooms as sharing the same universe. I reckon it's more of a relaunch using elements of old Doom but has its own timeline.

LMAO It was clearly established in Eternal that the Doom Slayer is the same person as the classic Doomguy. Are people seriously still denying this?!

 

39 minutes ago, Chezza said:

With Deimos and Earth already invaded within the classics + Icon of Sin appearance the only way to tie the actual games together is multi-dimensional hopping or time travel. I sincerely hope that's not the case as that's lazy writing like in comic books.

There's a potentially large time gap between the classic and modern DOOM games. Combine that with the advancements in technology in that universe, and Earth being rebuilt between the events of DOOM II and Eternal doesn't seem far-fetched.

 

By the way, was Deimos mentioned as being intact at all in 2016 or Eternal? Don't you mean Phobos? As far as I know, it wasn't sucked into Hell during the classic games like its sister. Also, the Icon of Sin was already killed at least once as of 2016. The Khan Maykr specified that she was reviving the Icon of Sin, not summoning it. He probably has some sort of ticket to immortality.

Edited by chemo

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I think it was established that this is an alternate dimension, wasn't it? Khan Mayker's promises of restoring what was lost to the marine suggested as much already, and then there's the cut dialogue in which she explicitly suggests returning him to "his world in the seventh dimension" , or some such. 

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1 hour ago, AtimZarr1 said:

Once the Dark Lord is dead, the story that has been set up since 2016, starting with the Dark Lord's mention, would be finished. Just like how the original Star Wars trilogy was finished with the Emperor's defeat (and the Empire's fall shortly after). 

This is very interesting how id aims a game for a public with different tastes. For my brothers and I was very easy to know the Doom Slayer awakening was taken from Robocop and the Slayer sharpening his blade taken from Rambo (we love both Robocop and Rambo). We are not fans of Star Wars series as we haven't watched any film but this is very interesting on how guys are predicting the possible Doom future based on what you and others have watched from Star Wars. 

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@chemo I'm sincerely interested in knowing what proves Doom 1 + 2 etc are directly connect to Doom 2016 + Eternal's timeline.

 

 

Is it the flashback scene in Doom Eternal where we see the original Doom helmet? Also in 2016 a stone tablet showing the Slayer in classic armour battling demons? If so, it could still easily fit my theory of a reboot using classic Doom elements.

 

The only way they can bypass all the multiple invasions on Earth and humanity seems to forget plot holes is some sort of multi-universe story, which I say again, I hope isn't the case.

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1 hour ago, Chezza said:

@chemo I'm sincerely interested in knowing what proves Doom 1 + 2 etc are directly connect to Doom 2016 + Eternal's timeline.

 

  Hide contents

Is it the flashback scene in Doom Eternal where we see the original Doom helmet? Also in 2016 a stone tablet showing the Slayer in classic armour battling demons? If so, it could still easily fit my theory of a reboot using classic Doom elements.

 

The only way they can bypass all the multiple invasions on Earth and humanity seems to forget plot holes is some sort of multi-universe story, which I say again, I hope isn't the case.

 

c5n2ou1ckhn41.jpg

 

From the Art of Doom Eternal artbook.

 

Transcript (since it's somewhat difficult to read from this image):

 

"Within the hub of the Doom Slayer's chamber, VEGA monitors quantum aberrations with great interest. As the forces of Hell and Urdak collide with the mortal realm, the tenuous order of reality begins to fragment, signaling the dawn of a new age of chaos.

 

A dedicated portion of VEGA's simulation matrix observes, records, and analyzes these dimensional abnormalities as VEGA attempts to comprehend their meaning. Processing a veritable kaleidoscope of hyperfluxal phenomena, VEGA observes what may very well be the result of a multiverse imploding inward upon itself, where countless battles are fought between the Doom Slayer and demonkind.

 

To further explore this anomaly, VEGA designs an onboard omni-contextual interace, an interdimensional man-machine gateway that would allow the Slayer to engage in these skirmishes directly. As the Slayer enters the gateway, his surroundings take the form of an arena, in tandem with the arrival of adversaries ready for battle. Seemingly extracted from his own experiential data, the opponents the Slayer faces are familiar but now transformed by some unseen force."

 

---

 

This excerpt from the Doom Eternal artbook essentially confirms the multiverse theory. Doom 1 and 2 aren't likely to be in the "same timeline" as Doom 2016 and Doom Eternal - but it is likely they exist in a multiverse and Doomguy was somehow able to step over dimensions during his time in Hell at the end of Doom 64.

 

This is further supported by a deleted line from the Khan Maykr, where she offers to return the Doom Slayer to the "Earth world in the seventh dimension". [video source timestamped to 4:10]

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@AtimZarr1 Thanks mate, this pretty much settles it. Different timelines, different universes - maybe the Slayer is the classic Doom guy, maybe it's a different version of him.

 

I'm not a fan of this direction though.

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To be honest it'll be cool to put this story to bed and move on to another story. Don't get me wrong, the lore they've created is brilliant but hard to follow at times.

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15 hours ago, Marn said:

Personally I'd like to see id try their hand at a proper Quake 1 sequel after Doom Eternal's arc is over, if not a new IP

 

Fuck that shit.

 

I wanna rip and tear D'Sparil's mount to pieces as an enraged Corvus, in a modern Heretic. ELF. GETS. PISSED.

 

(I am well aware Heretic isnt an id thing, but still, cant but wonder what a reimagining like Doom 2016 would be like)

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On mercredi 2 septembre 2020 at 4:55 AM, Quasar said:

In a recent interview Hugo basically said that The Ancient Gods will be the "end of the Doom Slayer's arc".

 

On mercredi 2 septembre 2020 at 5:40 AM, Ramiel said:

What people should know is that this DLC is a two-parter and essentially it is a two-part finale to the story that began in Doom 2016. There are certainly more stories to tell inside the Doom universe, but the arc of this story will end with part 2 of the DLC. This is our “Return of the Jedi” as we like to say.

 

There's a big difference between "end the Doom Slayer's arc" and "and this story's arc". Seems clear in this context that the arc is the one of the Maykr-caused Hell invasion.

 

Now the question is what they mean by "Doom universe". Personally I see a lot of different Doom universes.

  1. Classic Doom continuity: Ultimate Doom, Doom II, Final Doom, Doom 64.
  2. Mobile RPG continuity: Wolfenstein RPG, Doom RPG, Doom II RPG.
  3. Doom 3 continuity. Doom 3, The Lost Mission, Doom Resurrection, Resurrection of Evil.
  4. Doom Slayer continuity. Doom 2016, Doom VFR, Doom Eternal, The Ancient Gods.
  5. Doom novels continuity. Knee-Deep in the Dead, Hell on Earth, Infernal Sky, Endgame.
  6. Doom 3 novels continuity. Worlds on Fire, Maelstrom.
  7. Doom 2005 movie.
  8. Doom: Annihilation.
  9. Doom comic.

So there can be nods from one setting to another, but they're separate. Doomguy in Doom II is not the Doom Slayer, and there's no such things as Night Sentinels or Maykrs in Doom 64. The whole Doom Slayer continuity is irrelevant to Classic Doom. And that's true even if the Doom Slayer continuity positioned itself as a sequel to Classic Doom, saying that Classic Doomguy became the Doom Slayer after the events of Doom 64.

 

In a way, all these different settings are all part of the Doom universe, since they're all different facets of the franchise. So when one says there's more stories to tell in the Doom universe, that doesn't necessarily mean more stories to tell in continuity number 4. It could be an entirely new saga, with a new Doomguy that doesn't come up with the whole Doom Slayer baggage. I mean, Doom 3 explicitly used new protagonists for each campaign, so there's precedent.

 

But even if they decide to remain in the Doom Slayer continuity, they can give him new adventures. Just that the whole Argent energy thing with Samuel Hayden and the Night Sentinels and Urdak is over. After all, it was explicitly designed as a multiverse, with Doomguy having defeated the demon invasion of his own Earth (Classic Doom, remember?) before somehow ending up on Argent D'nur, and fighting a new demon invasion until he's trapped in Hell when the roof fell on him, and then being awakened from his sarcophagus so as to defeat a third demon invasion of a different Earth. Why not travel to other worlds that also have demon invasions in progress? They may or may not be other Earths, too, with their own UACs.

 

 

1 hour ago, Devalaous said:

Fuck that shit.

 

I wanna rip and tear D'Sparil's mount to pieces as an enraged Corvus, in a modern Heretic. ELF. GETS. PISSED.

 

(I am well aware Heretic isnt an id thing, but still, cant but wonder what a reimagining like Doom 2016 would be like)

You know, it's not entirely impossible. With the success of the Doom revival, and some other games attempting to replicate the formula with their own twists (Shadow Warrior 3 for example), it could be possible that Raven would get the opportunity to leave the CoD mines so as to work on a Heretic reboot in that style.

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Quake ever being back makes me hope they acknowledge Scourge of Armagon and Dissolution of Eternity. (or more obscure Quake material like the console ports of 2 and 3, really)

It also makes me wonder if the Night Sentinel would've made more sense there, since that was the id series with the more gothic looks and medieval elements. (Some even argue that new Doom games look more Quake/Doom 64-ish than Doom 1/2 outside of some certain designs simply being brought back)

 

For Heretic, i can see it being hard to be brought back because some executive might assume "it's just Doom with fantasy" and not even consider some unique/interesting elements it had. (the new Doom games go harder on the fantasy elements too, that we expect the DLC's to bring up ogres and dragons)

I think a problem with these old school FPS franchises is that most of their gameplay/identities came from experimenting with engines or game design, so it can be difficult making a throwback shooter stand out, hence they have to specifically pick the right elements to feel unique. (even if it means Doom may be taking a bit too much from Quake, making you wonder how exactly Quake 5 could be like)(or if some other game feels more "Doom" than Doom, even if it's an indie game)

For a similar reason, Blood is hard to be brought back unless they manage a good enough formular to stand out from these other kinds of games. (and also because of its identity which may be hard to replicate today)

 

Most of these games having modders and fans keeping them alive to the point they sort of "built a universe" is partially why some people expect devs to look up after fans. (the new Doom games even take inspiration from a rather fanmade portrayal of Doomguy too)

 

They probably wouldn't quit Doomguy but it makes me wonder if they'll ever "reinterpret" him, since the Slayer is written/designed different from Doomguy that if you build a time machine to go from 2004 to 2011, most fans would have different reactions to how people see him now. (either because of the comparions to Master Chief or because of the "power level" status that seems more of a recent thing for a guy who's face bleeds the lower health he has)

Hell feels even more different between classic and reboot.

 

In general, Doom having a "universe" is mostly because other franchises have it too and i think this is something even Hugo Martin admitted in some stream. (think it was the same event where those two football players played the first level)

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4 hours ago, Gez said:

You know, it's not entirely impossible. With the success of the Doom revival, and some other games attempting to replicate the formula with their own twists (Shadow Warrior 3 for example), it could be possible that Raven would get the opportunity to leave the CoD mines so as to work on a Heretic reboot in that style.

 

That would be great, but I highly doubt it. It seems weird to think that Raven hasn't touched the fantasy genre since Heretic 2 in 98. I think they're in the CoD mines for the long haul. I wonder if anybody that was on the Raven team from the 90's is still on board. I used to know some of their names, now it's all just a blur.

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Half the team went on to form Human Head Studios, which was disbanded in 2019 only to be immediately recreated as Roundhouse Studios with Bethesda's help. (And kind of shafting Ragnarok Games in the process since the contract to support Rune 2 post-launch died with Human Head. They had to have a lawsuit to receive the source code and the games' original assets so as to support it in-house.)

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They could always make another story-arc. But this sounds awfully like they just want to put their Doom series to rest so that they can do something else. I mean, I would go crazy pushing out sequels as well. But hopefully they continue to make more Doom content.

Edited by Samuel Slayer

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