Mysticism + Doom 3 = ?

[SpammerMike]

Everyone remembers the old alphas of Doom 1 and the mystic stuff that was involved. Like demon artifacts and things of that nature...things that smacked of mysticism. Would id perhaps incorporate such things as they did in their alpha into Doom 3? (maybe even things that aren't of the mysticism-aspect but the way the first BFG was -- maybe they'll stick to the classic...) And if so, how might it affect the gameplay and the game itself -- how would it mould the game?

P.S.: Sorry if some of my posts are inane. I try to keep 'em varied and controversial...I'm working on my 'member status'.

[Tetzlaff]

I would really like to see a heavy mystical influence in Doom3 (I absolutely hate it when demons get reinterpreted as evil alien monsters), BUT not on the weapons!
Mystical powerups would be ok, especially in the Hell levels. And of cousre mystic aspects in the whole story and the monster design etc. But no mystic weapons, cause that´s no Doom style. Doom style is: you and your trusty shotgun against hell :)

[Dark-tenshi]

i like these mystic stuff.that really push me the sense of battleing against hell.i gotta say one of the exciting stuff in E3 video is that pentagram.

mystic power up?i like to see Bererk-pack effect-like power up.Soulsphere etc..

[dsm]

Only if it is not exaggerated.

I do NOT want to see unholy bibles in D3 unless they are mission specific somehow and I do NOT want them to seem out of place or cheesy.

[Crix]

Yeah, we totally need mysticism. You're right... there is a trend to make the game very space aliens.

Right now (as of the Alpha) the game feels very technological. Maybe because the setting and story is more defined and the world looks more convincing it's harder to create that fantasy like setting. The orginal Doom seemed entirely mystical... it just so happened that stange beasts of hells were somewhat meshed with technology. Basically, things didn't quite make sense and I think that is what game Doom it's unique feel. I remember when I was a little guy (heh, around 13) playing doom and not really conscious of the storyline... I just knew that I was in some messed up place. A place where magic and modern weapons where a threat to me. Gave me the pleasantly disturbing sense that the whole world was against me. (enter psychoanalysis...) Maybe that's just kinda the way Doomers like to see the world.

Anyway, I really hope they get the magic back in the game. I agree that unholy bibles sound a bit cheesy but I'm hoping that the game progresses from space base setting to some REALLY FUCKED UP territory. Remember all the flesh and screaming face textures in Doom... I want to see the 3D versions of those in all their horrific glory. In these places and well places unholy bible or some crucified people could really intesify the mood. I hope Id software keeps up with their "We don't give a shit" attitude... just like Reznor said in the DOom III Legacy video. I hope they give us something disturbing that the media will get all ripshit about.... I mean, I don't want to puke playing this game but you need twisted stuff like walls made of skin and stuff.

Uh... yeah, mysticism is good. :)

[SpammerMike]

On relation to the mysticism in Doom 3 post, I forgot to add something. Remember the bee-gun-thing in HL? Maybe Doom 3 would be all the better to include some sort of organic/demon weapon. I know it might sound fruity at first, but I'm confident there are cool ways of employing that. I remember the super-secret-Satan weapon in Doom 64. I said to myself exactly what popped up on the screen when I grabbed it..."What the *$%# is this?" That was a neat moment from Doom. I don't know exactly what kind of gun, though. Maybe a hand from the baron of hell or something? Or maybe a Hellish parasite that latches onto you and, while equipped, your screen view is slightly different (ala Lord of the Rings, when Frodo puts on the ring) or something. I dunno. Do guys have any ideas?

[Julian]

QUIT SPAMMING OR I WILL BAN YOU MYSELF.
FIRST AND LAST WARNING.

[dsm]

SaviourMike said:

Remember the bee-gun-thing in HL? Maybe Doom 3 would be all the better to include some sort of organic/demon weapon. I know it might sound fruity at first, but I'm confident there are cool ways of employing that. I remember the super-secret-Satan weapon in Doom 64. I said to myself exactly what popped up on the screen when I grabbed it..."What the *$%# is this?" That was a neat moment from Doom. I don't know exactly what kind of gun, though. Maybe a hand from the baron of hell or something? Or maybe a Hellish parasite that latches onto you and, while equipped, your screen view is slightly different (ala Lord of the Rings, when Frodo puts on the ring) or something. I dunno. Do guys have any ideas?

/Me chokes on my dinner, coughing violently
ORGANIC WEAPONS IN DOOM 3????
[sarcasm]Sure, let's just all start to suggest triple-barrelled shotguns and the like for Doom 3 and if we're really lucky, id will take our suggestions into consideration, implement these weapons and thus make Doom 3 really wonderfully shitty![/sarcasm]

Are you outta your fucking mind n00b!?
If I see *one* cheesy, organic satan weapon in Doom 3, somebody's gonna die a horrible death.

On another note, I see a shitload of threads started by SaviourMike in this forum, and some of them are old topics that we have already discussed to death. Cut down on that posting craze NOW and you *may* live to see another moonrise. And that doesn't just go for this forum - I may just be a Mod of the two D3 forums and the fan fic forum, but I still check out other forums and I my ban powers are not limited to any specific set of forums, so stop fucking spamming!

[SpammerMike]

Ok. I didn't do my forum h-work first before posting. I kind of got ahead of myself and got post crazy or something. It won't happen again. Apologies to those I offended in the process. I'll make an effort to make posts that are relevant and non-redundant.

[Ichor]

I liked the Dark Staff in ROTT. It was the only magical type of weapon in the game (unless you count the Excalibat, but that was more of a joke than anything). It took about a second or two to power up, but when it fired, it cut through nearly every enemy in a blaze of crimson glory.

I did not like those organic weapon...things in Half-Life at all, but if I did have a choice in a Satanic, magical type weapon, I'd rather it be something like the Dark Staff.

[SpammerMike]

The organic gun thing was kinda dumb. That bee gun in HL sucked ne way. I guess that demon things should just be for the powerups or search items. Are the BFG and the plasma rifle the the only futuristic guns you'd like to see in Doom 3? Or are there any "untested" guns you wouldn't mind coming across in a lab?

[dsm]

SaviourMike said:

The organic gun thing was kinda dumb. That bee gun in HL sucked ne way. I guess that demon things should just be for the powerups or search items. Are the BFG and the plasma rifle the the only futuristic guns you'd like to see in Doom 3? Or are there any "untested" guns you wouldn't mind coming across in a lab?

Hmm, nah, only semi-futuristic weapons like the rocket launcher (the way the typical id rocket launcher functions is very different from modern day, real life RLs, suggesting that it is loads more advanced when it comes to firing and reload mechanism).

Maybe a futuristic flamethrower, but I'm not really interested in additional energy weapons. Two is enough to add the futuristic flavour without making the game too cheesy.

[Kinsie]

Ichor said:

I liked the Dark Staff in ROTT. It was the only magical type of weapon in the game...

You forgot God Mode! How can you forget God Mode?

Personally, I think the only organic weapon, if it should come to it, should be garroting the enemy with his best pal's intestines. Sick, I know, but hey, ORGANIC!

And on the mysic side of things, I think Doom 3's interpretation of hell should be a mixture of the traditional idea of hell (An underground torturous inferno), Doom's fleshy idea and one hell of a really screwed up dimension taking advantage of the engine. Something that is, in many different ways, disturbing.

[Ichor]

God mode and Dog mode don't count because they are powerups and not actual weapons.

[PlayfulPuppy]

To everyone who hates organic weapons:

There was some sort of Satanic Meat Laser in Doom 64.

It was horrid.

[Xanthier]

See this whole alien thing everyone get's bent out of shape about doesn't really bother me, like what's the difference? I know to anyone else this would sound absurd, obviously a native life-form is something different from a fallen angel(which is what demons are and what demon literally means) but I consider all aliens in our world, yo be demons, theior ships have even appeard in the shape of mystic symbols like the sign of neptune and the triangle with the moon facing the north star and on on and on..I believe modern day aliens are demons masquerading as creatures from outerspace, along with ghosts, so that's probably where my blended perspective comes from.

[dsm]

Xanthier said:

See this whole alien thing everyone get's bent out of shape about doesn't really bother me, like what's the difference? I know to anyone else this would sound absurd, obviously a native life-form is something different from a fallen angel(which is what demons are and what demon literally means) but I consider all aliens in our world, yo be demons, theior ships have even appeard in the shape of mystic symbols like the sign of neptune and the triangle with the moon facing the north star and on on and on..I believe modern day aliens are demons masquerading as creatures from outerspace, along with ghosts, so that's probably where my blended perspective comes from.

The difference, my friend, is the whole occult aspect about demons. Space Aliens don't have that to them. Plus, space aliens can't conjure up magical projectiles and hurl them at you or summon restless souls to seek out and possess humans.

[The_Aeromaster]

Was the D64 laser (it was, indeed, a laser of some sort) supposed to be a secret? It was rather right out in the open in some of the mid-game. I don't like this term mysticism, its too funky forest magic related. There's a difference between magic and pure evil like Doom is supposed to be. I'm sure id has done a good job of maintaining it.
And adding to what dsm just said, sure an alien might use some sort of projectile on u but its technological based, whereas a demon doesn't need that (ie. imps, barons of hell).

[Mod]Way to go! You just bumped and old thread! Last comment was 20 days old you dolt![/mod]

[Xzyl]

In the movie Event Horizon the ship returned from a place of pure evil. Was it hell or was it was it an alien universe of pure evil? It didnt matter if it were evil spirts or aliens causing death and destruction it was an absolute evil and in the end no one cared if it came from the depth of hell or from beyond the stars. If id were to go with the idea that our mythology about demons and hell are based on aliens and their universe it would not change gameplay at all compared to having them be demons from hell. In the end it does not matter if demon shooting a fireball or an alien shooting plasma at you. The diffences boil down to semantics. If somone helps a demon take over the world they are called a follower or worshiper of that demon, if somone helps an alien take over the world they would be called a traitor or colaberator. If a demon takes over somones body its called posession, if an alien takes over somones body it is called ocupying or infecting someone. When a demon uses an energy attack they give it a supernatural or mystical name, when an alien uses an energy attack they give it a technobable name. In the end the only thing that matter is gameplay.

Hellspawn or alien?

[dsm]

Xzyl said:

In the movie Event Horizon the ship returned from a place of pure evil. Was it hell or was it was it an alien universe of pure evil? It didnt matter if it were evil spirts or aliens causing death and destruction it was an absolute evil and in the end no one cared if it came from the depth of hell or from beyond the stars. If id were to go with the idea that our mythology about demons and hell are based on aliens and their universe it would not change gameplay at all compared to having them be demons from hell. In the end it does not matter if demon shooting a fireball or an alien shooting plasma at you. The diffences boil down to semantics. If somone helps a demon take over the world they are called a follower or worshiper of that demon, if somone helps an alien take over the world they would be called a traitor or colaberator. If a demon takes over somones body its called posession, if an alien takes over somones body it is called ocupying or infecting someone. When a demon uses an energy attack they give it a supernatural or mystical name, when an alien uses an energy attack they give it a technobable name. In the end the only thing that matter is gameplay.

There lies a huge difference in whether they're aliens or demons, but I doubt you'll understand it because you don't seem to think in that direction. Yes technically, gameplay will be no different, but the immersion factor will be hugely different in a way. Aliens are overused imho and it feels like a cheap solution to just have some aliens from beyond the stars - much more interesting to open a door into a parallel dimension and this dimension turns out to be the very place of Evil, the place where dead souls of bad folks go to burn.

Infecting is largely different from possession. Possesion is more occult ("Occult" is THE keyword here), because it involves something that seems/feels supernatural, whereas infection is too straightforward and too biological, which is basically a direct ripoff of the Alien movies in a way.
Someone helping a demon taking over the world is either downright mad, brainwashed or hypnotized to think that the demons are Gods or something weird.

So no, it doesn't just "boil down to semantics" - demons are more frightening because they are harder to explain. Demons are not born or bred - they're spawned out of pure Evil, which makes them a helluva lot more frightening.

[EVIL]

in the movie event horizon hell (the place of pure chaos and evil) was another dymension.. the spaceship and its crew got swallowed up in some sort of wormhole nearby jupiter and was lost for a couple of years.. but suddenly it reappears.. and a rescue ship is sent out to investigate. its not an alien planet of pure chaos and evil.. but i am missing the big point here i guess so i just stop writing

[Xzyl]

dsm said:

There lies a huge difference in whether they're aliens or demons, but I doubt you'll understand it because you don't seem to think in that direction. Yes technically, gameplay will be no different, but the immersion factor will be hugely different in a way. Aliens are overused imho and it feels like a cheap solution to just have some aliens from beyond the stars - much more interesting to open a door into a parallel dimension and this dimension turns out to be the very place of Evil, the place where dead souls of bad folks go to burn.

Infecting is largely different from possession. Possesion is more occult ("Occult" is THE keyword here), because it involves something that seems/feels supernatural, whereas infection is too straightforward and too biological, which is basically a direct ripoff of the Alien movies in a way.
Someone helping a demon taking over the world is either downright mad, brainwashed or hypnotized to think that the demons are Gods or something weird.

So no, it doesn't just "boil down to semantics" - demons are more frightening because they are harder to explain. Demons are not born or bred - they're spawned out of pure Evil, which makes them a helluva lot more frightening.

Yes it does boil down to semantics when you can substitue one for the other and not have it have any signifigant change in the story. Most people now a days do not belive in the demons however most people do belive in aliens. What is the counter argument given when somone goes on TV and says that thet have been kidnaped by aliens, they bring out a shrink that says that they were just having the same types of nightmares that people have had had for centries except that they have sustituted the demons for aliens. Thats why most horror stories in the last few years tend to favor aliens as the source of monsters. Since Demon Knight was released how many theatrical films about demons have there been. In 1972's Horror Express http://www.esplatter.com/reviewshton/horrorexpress.htm you could have sustited a demon for the bodyless alien that kept jumping bodies and producing an army of zombies. In demon knight you could have sustituted aliens for the demons and it would have had no signigant change in the story. Now is this an absolute, of course not. There are horror stories about demons and aliens were you could not substitue one for the other, but for most of them you could and it would not change anything. Buy the way its not imersion that you are arguing its personal taste. I personaly dont like the idea of cybernetic demons and felt that id should have left the cybernetics in the quake universe and kept the doom universe one of strait horror. But of course it is not going to happen because it, will that stop me from enjoying the game. No.

[Fletcher`]

Xzyl said:

I personaly dont like the idea of cybernetic demons and felt that id should have left the cybernetics in the quake universe and kept the doom universe one of strait horror.

Three words: Cyberdemon; Spider Mastermind. Any Questions? :P

[dsm]

Xzyl said:

*Xzyl's rubbish about Aliens being able to substitute demons*

Firstly: PARAGRAPHS MOTHERFUCKER, DO YOU SPEAK THEM!?!?!?
Secondly, this is all bullshit.
If it isn't any different to have aliens instead of demons, how the fuck come that I find that the Doom novels have ruined everything by having the demons being "aliens"? (this was but one reason out of countless reasons I hate the novels)
Like I said before, you just won't get it because you do not think in the right direction (you only look at the friggin' surface for crying out loud!) and again, OCCULTISM - aliens completely lack that element, which is why I like demons better, regardless of how they're portrayed.

[Goat]

I completely agree with dsm. it really pisses me off that in the novels the "demons" turned out to be aliens. it doesnt feel like doom if the monsters are aliens, and not hellspawn.

[Captain Red]

Xzyl said:
Most people now a days do not belive in the demons however most people do belive in aliens.

EXCATLY! All the more reason that it's more disturbing.

You are up ageist things that simply should not be! How could a species so Violent with no regard for it’s own survival possibly evolve, let alone launch any kind of coordinated attack? The only reason the demons exist is to destroy. They kill only for the taste of blood. Hell defies all scientific explanations, demons are not born, they are manifestations of corruption and sin. Aliens can be understood, demons cannot.

Not to mention the “Holy crap! Science really fucked up this time!” factor. I mean, how much worse can you get then opening a gateway to hell? Where not even supposed to know about it!

[Ichor]

Oh yes, you are most certainly done here.

[l00k]

I have to agree with Xzyl on this one. If id was able to create enemies that were a mix of hellspawn or semi-alien it would create a greater variety of monsters.

Put it this way, if the game was 100% pure hell spawn all we would constantly see is horned/winged monsters which would look pretty plane . If instead they populated the levels with 100% pure alien (with biotechy stuff) it would also look rather plane. Why not mix the two?

The result is a greater diversity of enemies, which is really what doom is all about isnt it? EXAMPLE : why are some monsters such as the mancubas, spider master mind or the cyber demon in DOOM when they dont even look like a goddamn demon?

[Captain Red]

As DSM little fits of anger claim another victim, the circle of life is complete... or something :P

[Captain Red]

l00k said:
[see for yourself ^_^]

Ever been it hell? No? Then how do you know that there isn’t more then one type of Demon?
Making monsters based around demons and hell spawn gives you as much scope as aliens do. More in fact. Why would a race of aliens bent on destroying everything in their path collaborate with other races of aliens? Evil comes in all shapes and sizes, and as such, so do the demons (being manifestations of evil and all).