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kokrean

Subjective vision of new generations

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I actually don't think the band's quality has anything to do with the change in singers (I think Floor Jansen is a superior singer to Tarja Turunen and so its quite disappointing how the last two albums turned out) but simply like the majority of bands go through that follow the one major architect's vision, I think there was a rawness to their early albums that's simply gone, and there's generally two reasons to do anything artistic and those are a; you really have something to express or b: you have bills to pay and this is how you're now used to paying them. I don't even criticise when that becomes the case because the vast majority of artists don't seem to be able to avoid it. They're still competent and technically proficient musicians, and that part isn't the problem. 

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5 hours ago, hybridial said:

 

Okay I did have kind of a knee jerk response to this but it wasn't helpful so instead.

 

Why? 

 

And just to save you time, if the reason its going to be its too violent or has too much sexual content, that's not a very good reason, because at least if you watch it to the end, it's very apparent why it is the way it is and what point it's making. I am hoping you at least watched all of it. If its something else, then it would be worth going into I think. 

 

Devilman Crybaby wasn't my favourite take on the material exactly, I don't think it was as good as the original manga, and though unfinished the 1988-1990 OVAs were like, the best adaptations by a long way, but most of what makes the story tick was present in some form in Crybaby. But somehow, less subtle, and it's impressive to be less subtle than Go Nagai, although I would still class it as more subtle than Jojo at least.

 

The biggest fault it had, and it is a major fault with what Crybaby was trying to be; it was the first time the whole story was getting adapted. So lets ah, do it in a way in which you have to be familiar with the original material to better understand some points because Crybaby glossed over them a bit too much. Definitely a problem, the Devilman Lady anime avoided that completely by being its own story entirely, and the issue with Crybaby is it tries to be both and then fit it all in 10 episodes and of course that causes problems. 

 

But to call it what you said suggests that you place far too much on disapproval of its methods, and I would like the chance to lay out why its methods are necessary to make the points its trying to make.

 

And in fact, in case I didn't already say this to @seed , don't start with Devilman Crybaby. Start with the manga if you can, or at least the OVAs. It's impractical given Crybaby is the new thing and all but it's not really a very good introduction to what Devilman is given the Director's very different approach to the visuals and the fact as an adaptation it takes quite a few liberties. It's more of a different thing than a direct adaptation for sure. 

 

 

One of my favorite anime is Berserk, so I think it's safe to say that I'm fine with violence and sexual content. And no, I wasn't able to get through all of it. I tried, but it was just excruciating to watch. I'm fine with an anime being difficult to watch (Elfen Lied) if it tells a compelling story, but everything about Devilman Crybaby was so thoroughly shallow and insultingly stupid that I couldn't get through more than a few episodes. Even the recent Cutey Honey series wasn't anywhere near this obnoxious. 

 

The soundtrack is fantastic though. 

 

I've watched the OVAs. They alternate between boring and laughably bad. The 1972 series is fine. 

 

2 hours ago, hybridial said:

I actually don't think the band's quality has anything to do with the change in singers (I think Floor Jansen is a superior singer to Tarja Turunen and so its quite disappointing how the last two albums turned out) but simply like the majority of bands go through that follow the one major architect's vision, I think there was a rawness to their early albums that's simply gone, and there's generally two reasons to do anything artistic and those are a; you really have something to express or b: you have bills to pay and this is how you're now used to paying them. I don't even criticise when that becomes the case because the vast majority of artists don't seem to be able to avoid it. They're still competent and technically proficient musicians, and that part isn't the problem. 

 

The Blaze Bayley era of Iron Maiden is pretty weak. 

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19 minutes ago, Ajora said:

One of my favorite anime is Berserk, so I think it's safe to say that I'm fine with violence and sexual content. And no, I wasn't able to get through all of it. I tried, but it was just excruciating to watch. I'm fine with an anime being difficult to watch (Elfen Lied) if it tells a compelling story, but everything about Devilman Crybaby was so thoroughly shallow and insultingly stupid that I couldn't get through more than a few episodes. Even the recent Cutey Honey series wasn't anywhere near this obnoxious. 

 

See, I think Elfen Lied is completely embarrasing and one of the absolutely most terrible things I've ever watched. I watched all of it. Even taking into account that Crybaby is very blunt, like extremely blunt, it is far more purposeful and less exploitative than Elfen Lied was, and that's not an opinion, Elfen Lied was fantasy revenge porn that feels really fucking scuzzy.  Crybaby is lewd, more than it has to be but not to a point it goes against the themes of the story. And it is just lewdness, there's not an underlying subtext to it that makes Elfen Lied border on outright creepy. I don't really like Sirene's characterisation compared to the awesome badass demon warrior she was portrayed in the Demonbird OVA, but I get what they were going for with it. It sounds like you have watched prior Devilman stuff, so I guess this is more about Crybaby itself. I would honestly suggest trying to watch it all, the second half, whilst a little rushed (Director's fault because of the new stuff that didn't really need to be there) mostly succeeds in adapting the really great parts of the manga. Or just read the manga. It's the second half of the manga that is pretty much the reason we're still talking about something that started in the early 70s.

 

And there's the Devilman lady anime for what is I would say a better example of an alternate take on a Go Nagai story. That anime is restrained, gothic, grounded and whilst rough and showing of its low budget quite a bit, the creative vision it had was ambitious, really the only time I'd say as ambitious as the original manga. 

 

 

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I probably won't read the manga. I only read manga once in a while, and Hokuto no Ken and Evangelion are both higher priorities than a series I never really cared much for, to begin with. If I ever feel daring enough I might attempt to binge-watch all of it in one sitting. But I mean, even the art style is just so hideous to look at. I'm baffled as to what people see in the series' animation and art direction. 

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Superhero movies have been pretty good in recent years. A lot of them feel kinda samey, but for me, it's comfort food. The equivalent to ordering A Big Bacon Classic combo at Wendy's. 

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Just now, Ajora said:

I'm baffled as to what people see in the series' animation and art direction. 

 

I do understand having that opinion more, and I definitely do not enjoy it anywhere near as much as I do the original style, but, I was exposed to a series that the Director did in the past called Kemonozume, and I actually really liked that, and I'd even say it's probably a better work than Devilman Crybaby. Crybaby leans on being an adaptation of strong material but arguably every digression it makes is detrimental to it. Kemonozume being an original idea was really interesting. 

 

I'd say I respect it more than like it, but for me bad visual design is boring visual design and it's not boring to look at, I give it that. 

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Sarcasm doesn't always convey itself very well through text. 

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I'm sorry, but you just can't say we have decayed and then have Filthy Frank as an example of  high culture.

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Movies stopped being good after Terminator 2.

 

Not the Terminator movies, just... movies.

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11 minutes ago, scalliano said:

Movies stopped being good after Terminator 2.

 

Not the Terminator movies, just... movies.

 

I'm almost jaded enough to say that, but, I did really like Shutter Island and Inception.

 

I have to give it to Leonardo DiCaprio, he's probably picked all the best scripts of any current A list actors. I feel like I can forgive him for being in Titanic XD

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6 hours ago, DSC said:

I'm sorry, but you just can't say we have decayed and then have Filthy Frank as an example of high culture.

Reminds me of when Joji got cancelled by some of his fans, only for them to get mocked by his other fans.

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1 hour ago, scalliano said:

Movies stopped being good after Terminator 2.

 

Not the Terminator movies, just... movies.

 

Well, Fargo, Dark City, Parasite, Mulholland Drive, Old Boy, The Departed, Moon, Kill Bill, The Dark Knight, Pulp Fiction, Dredd, Schindler's List, and Ninja Scroll all came out after Terminator 2. 

Edited by Ajora

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I think there’s a point to be made about T2. It’s from the early 90s yet still the effects hold up compared to a lot of modern films that overuse CGI. 

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To be fair, I was being fecetious.

 

But T2 and Aliens are my two favourite movies (Aliens being number 1).

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Movies don't get much better than Aliens and T2, that's for sure.

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12 minutes ago, Mr. Freeze said:

Alien > Aliens tho

 

Far too different to compare. They excel in entirely different areas but are both perfect in their own way.

Edited by Ajora

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The new generation thinks, that they are younger, prettier, do not have that many responsibilities and can have more sex.

Which is probably true.....

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1 hour ago, Sokoro said:

The new generation thinks, that they are younger, prettier, do not have that many responsibilities and can have more sex.

Which is probably true.....

Don't think whether the new generation's younger and prettier is even a question, but they're also freighted with insecurity under the cascade of images of other people, middle millennials entered the job market post 2008 and now gen-Zers get to take on the responsibilities of adulthood in pandemic-flattened economies in which entry-level jobs have taken a deeper hit.  And they have less sex, although that's true across the generations in many places now.

 

Feel like young people can't catch a break. Some of my friends and I used to talk about how lucky we felt to have been young and see the pre and post Internet world.  I'd now qualify that a bit further to say the pre and post smartphone world.  Probably every generation feels their time was a bit special, but I at least try to convince myself that there is something useful in having experienced the smartphone life without being marinaded in it from childhood.

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12 hours ago, scalliano said:

Movies stopped being good after Terminator 2.

 

Not the Terminator movies, just... movies.

 

Yep, The only new good ones are Adam Sandler movies.

Edited by kokrean

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12 hours ago, hybridial said:

 

I'm almost jaded enough to say that, but, I did really like Shutter Island and Inception.

 

I have to give it to Leonardo DiCaprio, he's probably picked all the best scripts of any current A list actors. I feel like I can forgive him for being in Titanic XD


When I was younger, Leo was a pretty boy in Titanic and Romeo and Juliet, and he was going to ruin Star Wars by playing Anakin Skywalker in the prequels according to everyone on the playground, and the Backstreet Boys were also going to be in it but as storm troopers, and all us 9 year olds were livid as fuck about this alleged turn of events.

 

Now, instead of children thinking pretty boys are going to ruin a film series that originally featured Ford and Hamill, it’s adults thinking minorities are going to ruin the film series instead. I guess my point is every generation is pretty stupid in retrospect.

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6 hours ago, Ajora said:

 

Far too different to compare. They excel in entirely different areas but are both perfect in their own way.

 

What they have in common is they're still not quite as perfect as The Thing :P

 

Pretty valid comparison actually as those movies along with Thing from Another World and Invasion of the Body Snatchers all have their basis in the story "Who Goes There". The Thing is actually the closest adaptation of it though. 

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“Diane was right. The world is changing, music is changing, drugs are changing, even men and women are changing. One thousand years from now there’ll be no guys and no girls, just wankers.” - Trainspotting

 

Honestly I believe the world is getting worse in many ways and that we are all fucked. But at least we aren’t going to stave to death like past or possibly future generations or having to worry about nukes falling from the sky. 

 

Every time period is bad, just in different ways. Just like all of us are dying, just some of us will die sooner than others.

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On 9/8/2020 at 7:15 PM, Antkibo said:

Western animation of the 10's was great, with GOAT series like Regular Show and Adventure Time - much better than the 00's.

 

I'm only now noticing this and had to reply, heh :p .

 

No way senor, the cartoons of the 2010s were way weaker than those of the early-to-mid 2000s & older. Regular Show (and Young Justice) happen to be my favorite from the previous era, but they're really just exceptions in a sea of mediocrity. Most cartoons from this era don't hold a candle to the stuff from the previous one and the one before, stuff like KND, Samurai Jack, Foster's Home for Imaginary Friends, Powerpuff Girls, Dexter's Laboratory, Johnny Bravo, Ben 10, Duck Dodgers, The Grim Adventures of Billy & Mandy, Teen Titans, Justice League, Batman Beyond, X-Men Evolution, and other classics from the golden era of CN.

 

It also marked the beginning of the downfall of some cartoon oriented networks (Boomerang), and the complete downfall of others (CN), in addition to being plagued by bad reboots that we're all too familiar with and these horrors shall not be named. Nah, the previous decade was a shit time to be a cartoon fan IMO, it had some high points, but very few, and if there were more, they definitely got overshadowed by the bad stuff.

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And I've already said the 90s (and some of the 80s probably carried over) were far better than most of the stuff that came later, but I would definitely single out Avatar and most of the DCAU stuff as being great, but otherwise, pre 00s for me by far :P. Oh, I will actually mention another show which I did enjoy a lot, not at the time but later because it did not air here, Time Jam: Valerian & Laureline - yes, as in based on the comics Valerian & Laureline, which also spawned the recent film which I have not seen. The comics are pretty neat, but this series whilst probably not the best adaptation is pretty enjoyable for what it is, and the last few episodes are fantastic. The english dub was of mixed quality but Laureline is best girl. Just best girl. :P

 

And it does make me think of something interesting. the 80s/90s cartoons were mostly about selling toys to kids but they made good shows to do it. Contemporary anime is also made to sell toys to adults and they suck. Just an interesting thought :P

Edited by hybridial

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7 hours ago, seed said:

No way senor, the cartoons of the 2010s were way weaker than those of the early-to-mid 2000s & older. Regular Show (and Young Justice) happen to be my favorite from the previous era, but they're really just exceptions in a sea of mediocrity. Most cartoons from this era don't hold a candle to the stuff from the previous one and the one before, stuff like KND, Samurai Jack, Foster's Home for Imaginary Friends, Powerpuff Girls, Dexter's Laboratory, Johnny Bravo, Ben 10, Duck Dodgers, The Grim Adventures of Billy & Mandy, Teen Titans, Justice League, Batman Beyond, X-Men Evolution, and other classics from the golden era of CN.

 

Though I agree that I didn't remember the decade as well as I should'd, a lot of those shows started in the 90s (PPG, Dexter, Johnny Bravo). X-Men Evolution was great in a lot of areas (animation for one), but bad in comparison to 90s X-Men (just like Spiderman, the 3D series, vs 90s Spiderman). Ben 10 left a bad taste with how overly commercialized it became.

 

You are right in all other accounts, however, and withdraw my previous statement. I blame my confusion in that I was kid then, and the 00s felt like two decades to me, while the 10s passed by too quickly. Glad to see someone mentioning Duck Dodgers, which is very underrated. There was also Time Squad - yes, the memories are returning. Star Wars: Clone Wars, the first series, was rad too. When we went to see Episode III at the movies, I was the one explaining why Grievous was coughing.

 

There's also... drumroll... Avatar: The Last Airbender! One of the best series of all time in my opinion, and a great Japanese-American collaboration (like Teen Titans).

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20 hours ago, hybridial said:

And I've already said the 90s (and some of the 80s probably carried over) were far better than most of the stuff that came later, but I would definitely single out Avatar and most of the DCAU stuff as being great, but otherwise, pre 00s for me by far :P. Oh, I will actually mention another show which I did enjoy a lot, not at the time but later because it did not air here, Time Jam: Valerian & Laureline - yes, as in based on the comics Valerian & Laureline, which also spawned the recent film which I have not seen. The comics are pretty neat, but this series whilst probably not the best adaptation is pretty enjoyable for what it is, and the last few episodes are fantastic. The english dub was of mixed quality but Laureline is best girl. Just best girl. :P

 

And it does make me think of something interesting. the 80s/90s cartoons were mostly about selling toys to kids but they made good shows to do it. Contemporary anime is also made to sell toys to adults and they suck. Just an interesting thought :P

 

Funny thing is, that DC and superhero stuff in general was still solid in the previous decade, since we got shows like Young Justice and plenty of good animated movies, but if we're not counting those, there's way, way too few highlights.

 

The same could be said about triple-A games from the previous decade, but to a lesser extent, it was by far the weakest this category has ever seen. Exceptions exist as per usual, but the rule still applies. It was also far more multiplayer centric.

 

16 hours ago, Antkibo said:

Though I agree that I didn't remember the decade as well as I should'd, a lot of those shows started in the 90s (PPG, Dexter, Johnny Bravo). X-Men Evolution was great in a lot of areas (animation for one), but bad in comparison to 90s X-Men (just like Spiderman, the 3D series, vs 90s Spiderman). Ben 10 left a bad taste with how overly commercialized it became.

 

You are right in all other accounts, however, and withdraw my previous statement. I blame my confusion in that I was kid then, and the 00s felt like two decades to me, while the 10s passed by too quickly. Glad to see someone mentioning Duck Dodgers, which is very underrated. There was also Time Squad - yes, the memories are returning. Star Wars: Clone Wars, the first series, was rad too. When we went to see Episode III at the movies, I was the one explaining why Grievous was coughing.

 

There's also... drumroll... Avatar: The Last Airbender! One of the best series of all time in my opinion, and a great Japanese-American collaboration (like Teen Titans).

 

Yes, that's why I said early-to-mid-2000s and older.

 

Evolution was solid all-around though, but its biggest issue was that it was constantly overshadowed by similar shows, especially when Justice League was still around, then Batman Beyond stepped in. It's really just too bad so few remember that show fondly, no wonder it's considered criminally underrated nowadays, there's a reason for that for sure.

 

But the same could be said about the 90s Spider-Man show as well, which still managed to shine despite the heavy censorship that plagued it (futuristic guns instead of conventional weaponry, no mentions of the word "kill" and variations thereof, Michael Morbius feeding on "plasma" as a vampire instead of blood, and censored deaths, notably Mary Jane's, who falls through a portal in the show instead of falling to her death, if I'm not mistaken). Still, this happens to be my favorite Spider-Man on the screen, I loved the animation and darker tone it had, but ironically it's also what makes nowadays' Spider-Man just so alien to me, because at that time he was older in both cartoons and comics than he is nowadays, and everytime I see him as a kid, or almost a kid, it makes me feel all sorts of strange. I happen to still prefer the Sam Raimi movies too, although I've grown fond of Tom Holland's series. Not Andrew Garfield's though, these movies just plain sucked... Too bad this show was cancelled, for other reasons than ratings and reception, it ran for 5 seasons but still managed to get only 65 episodes in total. It had amazing crossovers and team ups too.

 

Spoiler

 

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The 90s X-Men was great too, obviously, but it didn't end on a high note sadly, as the last seasons were not as good as the previous. The animation and writing also got gradually worse. I tend to not remember this one as fondly as others for a simple reason: I think the Sentinels were horribly overused in this show, I got tired of seeing them so often real quick since they were so prominent, especially in its early days.

 

Ben 10, yeah, I hated that aspect as well, since it's also how it pretty much died. It relied on toy sales to keep going on top of everything, and when the well dried up, it died too. What a waste, now it's forever tainted by that abysmal "reboot" (read: lobotomy). I'm tired of seeing reboots for things that were not that old, and also not needing one in the first place.

 

Time Squad, I remember that too, heh. It's strange though, because it always makes me think of another cartoon accompanying it, but much older and different than it: The Tick. There was also Space Ghost Coast to Coast, Total Drama (before they sucked the life out of it, it should have ended after World Tour, it never needed more seasons after that), Xiaolin Showdown, and of course Clone Wars, and more.

 

I think the reason why you picture the 2000s as two different eras instead of one is because they basically were, especially if you grew up with what was on channels like Fox Kids, Jetix, CN, and so on, especially CN. CN can be split into two big eras in the 2000s as they are the ones that marked it, the Classic Era, which ended around 2003 and had lots of older classics but plenty of original content too, and the City Era which lasted roughly until Foster's Home ended if I remember correctly, which is also when the network's downfall originally started, the City Era was the last of its glory days, which leaned towards newer but also great shows.

Edited by seed

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