Man of Doom Posted September 9, 2020 So with very first Realms Deep done and in the history books, I'm honestly a mix of emotions. On one hand, I'm beyond ecstatic to see so much talent turn retro FPSes into less of a passing fad and more of a legitimate genre. On the other hand, something has always consistently felt... off during the whole event; I could never pinpoint what it was exactly but it was always there. And all of that was best encapsulated when I saw something on Twitter that managed to be both illuminating and shocking: For those of you not quite in the know, OSR stands for "Old School Renaissance" in the world of tabletop RPGs. Basically, it's the usage of older Dungeons & Dragons rules to craft new premises (similar to how the formulas of the original Doom and Quake are used to create new titles). But after what happened over a year ago, many people have since disavowed the OSR brand or tried to scrub it clean of the past sins of its creators. Especially since the OSR was already branded long before that as "the Mad Max Australia of TTRPGs" due to the surplus of reactionary weirdos cosplaying as anarchists, contrarians, and Internet Tough Guys. And that brings me to why I posted this in the first place and why this brought about a visceral reaction in me. So there's this friend of mine, and I can honestly say that she is one of the kindest, sweetest, and most compassionate people I've ever had the chance to know. I should also mention that she also has a variety of disabilities which range from Ehlers-Danlos to fibromyalgia to autism (and yes, I'm on the spectrum myself as well), which have left her either in a wheelchair or in the hospital in the past though she's been doing much better the past couple of years. I bring up my friend because her ex-partner was one of the prime founders of the OSR movement as well as an extremely talented and charismatic artist... and not only was he an extremely-online, abrasive shitbag who: knowingly misgendered trans people despite insisting he's an ally for the LGBT+ community used even his closest friends as shields on why his critics are wrong and only he was right (case in point, feminist critiques of a work with a lot of sexual content was attacked as being "anti-sex conservative bullshit") constantly namesearched himself for anyone who talked about him so that he could pick fights with complete strangers insisted that all of his critics were not only wrong, but also idiotic and worthy of mockery repeatedly sicced his fans on anyone who dared to criticize him to the point where it would often reach "here is a picture of your house" and "I have your phone number" levels of doxxing (Spoilered for content warning as this contains mentions of extreme emotional/psychological/sexual abuse) Spoiler ...it was brought to light well over a year ago that he was extremely manipulative and abusive towards any and all partners (especially my friend), he had sexually assaulted/coerced several people purely out of some particularly fucked-up brand of sexual gratification (case in point, "you did this with them and now you will do it with me"), and repeatedly demanding that his partners be constantly available for sexual speed-dial "or else" despite insisting he's a feminist. And that's not even going into the grooming of women and constant gaslighting. And even after the credible allegations came to light, he brought up my friend's sexual history as though it automatically invalidated her experiences of being either totally neglected in a hospital bed or being screamed at because she didn't retweet something within the span of literally five minutes to "defend his honor". That, and he brushed off the allegations of his other accusers as being "mentally ill sluts". While those stories nearly made me either cry or want to physically throw up, they honestly weren't all that surprising given this dude's online behavior and the fact that my friend would occasionally tweet out some horror story involving this guy. And as one of this guy's many accusers said, "monsters are charismatic creatures". And the damnedest thing of all was that it took my friend (also an influential figure in the TTRPG community) to go public with her story alongside the story of several others to finally bring this guy down to earth especially considering how people frequently looked to my friend to assure them that "he's really such a nice guy who does care". Before that, even the top leaders in the tabletop industry went out of their way to either cover for this dude or just look the other way when it came to his antics which went on for well over a decade. As a result, people who tried to come forward about him were either brushed off or were ratted out to him, leading to even more targeted harassment campaigns. And I dare not speak his name here because as of late, he's been extremely litigious (and I strongly recommend that you don't speak his name here either). He hasn't been just sealioning as he usually does, he's been going around issuing SLAPP suits either to drain the resources and time of his critics or to force them into announcing a retraction of their previous comments at gunpoint, citing "harassment" or "libel/slander". And my friend's received the worst of it; despite her repeated requests to settle out of court even with the pandemic still around at this time, he still insists on full litigation so that in the event he somehow wins, he can hold it over her head forever as well as somehow use it as an excuse to force people to collaborate with him again, invite him back to conventions, etc. And then of course, we have the incident that brought up the "boomer shooter discourse" which is none other than the coverage of a game that got a ton of attention and not necessarily for the right reasons. I'll just be talking about the discourse itself, that's it. How bad did it get? Well, PC Gamer had to take down both a tweet that talked about it and the original article that covered it due to how much backlash it got. Of course, it's easy to just write this all off as "just more Twitter drama" but that would be ignoring the fact that chuds seem to be surprisingly successful at infiltrating the spaces in which boomer shooters seem to thrive. And for those of you wondering, I'm specifically referring to the types of people who are either just more vocal in their "human rights are for cucks" worldviews or those who will make it their job to scare away anyone who dares to change up the formula of their "nostalgia comfort food" (i.e. sent death/rape threats to the cast and crew of Doom Annihilation to the point of r/Doom issuing a temporary moratorium on further discussion of that movie because DOOMGIRL WITH NO AVENGERS BUDGET, essentially screwed Mick Gordon out of scoring what would become The Ancient Gods and pretty much destroyed his professional relationship with id Software beyond repair because TODD HOWARD IS THE DARK LORD, you name it). And what's even more disturbing is that these chuds seem to be enabled especially with incidents like the Ion Fury shitstorm and people taking away the wrong lessons from it (3D Realms promising to have everyone at Voidpoint take sensitivity training and then donate to The Trevor Project only for the promise to be taken back by Voidpoint because "unprofessional behavior on a social media account and rampant transphobia isn't that bad actually because it's just a joke bro"; basically the Schrödinger's Douchebag defense). Ion Fury is especially a depressing incident because I know people on the development team who are very much not frothing-at-the-mouth edgelords and it still feels wrong to punish them for actions they weren't responsible for (plus Ion Fury is exceptionally well-made and is worthy of being up there with the Build Engine Trinity). But as the saying goes, "a few bad apples spoils the entire barrel". So what am I getting at here? Well, like I said, not only does it seems like these kinds of chuds are getting comfortable in boomer shooter spaces, I can't help but feel that they're being actively enabled due to being spotlighted quite often. And I'm especially afraid that if they get enough of a warm reception, the boomer shooter community might end up just like the OSR in that it's met primarily with dirty looks and whispers of misconduct. Not helping is the manbaby industrial complex looking for even the slightest bit of "evidence" that somehow validates their shit-ass viewpoints (case in point, the "mortally challenged" non-controversy with Doom Eternal where a bunch of weird nerds tried to use a few vague tweets to claim that "DEWM ETERNUL PEWNS LIBZ"). And the last thing I want to hear about is a boomer shooter developer being outed as a sex pest/serial harasser/horrific abuser. It's already bad enough that several people have already been outed as 6ix9ine wannabes trying to be Internet badasses (and completely embarrassing themselves in the process). So here is what I ultimately have to say, especially to developers or publishers like 3D Realms: You see those toxic dudebros shitting up various forums of discussion with rampant misogyny, transphobia, racism, and other assorted kinds of assbaggery? They want you to believe they're both "necessary and irreplaceable". That they're the "only ones who can bring about the next Doom Eternal/Blood/Amid Evil/Duke Nukem 3D", that only their ideas matter because they've been around for X number of years or worked on X number of projects. That they're somehow the "only ones with the talent to make your project succeed". All of this is a myth. Every last one of those chuds are replaceable because they are not worth the hundreds if not thousands of potential creators they scared off, creators that would have brought in even more novel concepts than the chuds you've potentially enabled even inadvertently. If you don't remove them quickly, they can (and often will) poison the boomer shooter culture and render even the most well-meaning people in the vicinity completely powerless and completely unable to do anything (like what happened with Ion Fury). And when you fail to do that, good people will leave resulting in only the worst of the worst getting free reign over a space like this (like what is currently happening with 3D Realms). Do not let the boomer shooter community fall to the same fate that the OSR did. Do not let more people like That One OSR Guy wield power and clout to lord over others. The boomer shooter community CANNOT afford to have someone like That One OSR Guy, let alone several more like him. Honestly, I'm really sorry I got all alarmist and viscerally angry about this, but I've seen the kinds of damage That One OSR Guy did to tabletop gaming, and I'm legitimately afraid that the same damage is already being done to the boomer shooter community. And to already see someone I care deeply about being forced to live with honest-to-god PTSD because of guys like these is beyond fucking infuriating. I don't want to see more people I care about go through the same kinds of trauma just so people can continue to have more shooty-shooty boom-boom games no questions asked. 25 Share this post Link to post
Doomkid Posted September 9, 2020 (edited) I understand why this is troubling you so much. If someone makes a habit out of cunty behaviour, they tend to be removed, at least here. Usually when banned these people pat themselves on the back and just become even more engrained in their views, but when it’s between that and letting them rot the community from the inside, what else can you do. I have observed the chud phenomenon you’ve mentioned though admittedly far less of it, I don’t follow the trends closely or whatever. Other than holding people accountable for what they say and do, not sure there’s much can be done about it. There’s a trend of lonely men hopping on toxic bandwagons as a way to seek acceptance and validation at the moment and I think the stuff you’re talking about here is a side effect of that. The best cure is education, but again that ball really isn’t in any one person’s court. Just don’t be afraid to speak out when you see someone being a fuck. That’s all I can suggest. Keep in mind that most hobbies have giant numbers of twats who partake, though. No matter what part of the net I find myself on there are always assholes trying to peddle everything from anti-trans horse shit to “the Jew question”. Other than people choosing to educate themselves rather than stuffing their heads with hate-riddled conspiracy wackery, not sure what can be done about it. Speak out, if not for your own benefit than for the benefit of others. Maybe others will have a more enlightening perspective. 27 Share this post Link to post
DNSKILL5 Posted September 9, 2020 (edited) I think you’re taking this whole thing a little too personally, and if you got all these revelations based on a twitter post then there’s no argument to be had from me. Also, I don’t know you or your friend, so do I just take your word for it on all that you said? I don’t even care anyways but since I’m here... Everyone has a skeleton in their closet, at least one, and if this is honestly what you are concerned about with all that’s going on in the world right now... then I am truly envious. 13 Share this post Link to post
Biodegradable Posted September 9, 2020 Garbage people exist, this isn't a new phenomenon. Keep calm, play games and ignore/ban toxic assholes. I mean, we've long established that we don't care for that kind of behaviour here at Doomworld, so I'm not concerned about some kind of "infiltration" as you seem to be implying, MoD. 13 Share this post Link to post
NoXion Posted September 9, 2020 I don't doubt there are shit people in the boomer shooter community, but Twitter spats give me a fucking headache. Something about the format of that place seems to encourage fucking stupid shit-fights, awful takes and bad-faith arguments all round. I would encourage anyone who feels that they have to use Twitter, to limit their posts to stuff like news and announcements, and leave the community stuff for dedicated forums and such. I recently started using Twitter and while it's good for catching up on certain things, it's complete fucking dogshit as far as a discussion forum is concerned, a shortcoming for which I largely blame the design of Twitter itself. As for what to do with toxic people generally, the best I can offer is to cut them out of your life as much as possible. 24 Share this post Link to post
plums Posted September 9, 2020 (edited) I think that people are kind of taking the wrong message from your post, which isn't that toxic people become part of communities, but that when they become revered creators then the community as a whole is in danger. I don't really know what to do about that though. Don't really have anything to add other than that I feel your pain. I know who you're talking about with the OSR people, I sort of follow that scene. That guy did a lot of damage to a lot of people, and it's sad that he was a figurehead of that scene for so long. If you don't mind me asking, how is your friend doing? I haven't heard anything about her in a while. (Feel free to respond by private message, or just ask me to delete this part.) @Gerolf I can confirm for what Man of Doom was saying, and that there's a reason he and I are being a little bit vague about it. I don't know her personally at all, just from things that happened in the OSR community. We're not trying to be coy, but there are certain people and groups who's attention might bring in all sorts of concern trolls and harassment. Edited September 9, 2020 by plums 7 Share this post Link to post
Vic Vos Posted September 9, 2020 TL;DR IMO, if anything, the current boom of boomer-shooters is probably going to die down within about 2-3 years for the exact same reasons as in the past. I'm real glad to see more of 'em, but someday you're gonna have to pull the lever. 1 Share this post Link to post
AkiraZXE Posted September 9, 2020 Well if you guys succumb to a social media-style moral panic and start purging people, at least there'll be good material for Community is Falling 4. I've seen it happen enough times that I can probably help out if it doesn't take off. 3 Share this post Link to post
Nevander Posted September 9, 2020 I love all the new retro style shooters and I can't comprehend why someone wouldn't. Sorry not sorry. 10 Share this post Link to post
scalliano Posted September 9, 2020 The boomer shooter scene is still in its infancy. The last thing it needs is divisive culture war BS getting in on the ground floor. People sometimes have shit opinions. Mobs ALWAYS have shit opinions. NEVER engage with the mob, either for or against, regardless of what they say. The Block button exists for a reason. Oh, and get off Twitter. That goes for everyone. 10 Share this post Link to post
Toilet_Wine_Connoisseur Posted September 9, 2020 Dont let any reactionary CHUDS (here or elsewhere) get you down and don't give any of their thin veneers of plausible deniability an ounce of legitimacy. They would rather let this scene/community (or any other) stagnate and calcify than diversify or reckon with outmoded toxic behavior and worldviews You are completely in the right for feeling that way. Solidarity comrade 1 Share this post Link to post
Linguica Posted September 9, 2020 10 hours ago, Man of Doom said: The boomer shooter community I don't know what this purported "boomer shooter community" is and I don't consider myself a part of it. 17 Share this post Link to post
DSC Posted September 9, 2020 8 hours ago, Doomkid said: If someone makes a habit out of cunty behaviour, they tend to be removed, at least here. Going a bit off-topic here, but thats one of the reasons I love DW so much. This site is very scrutinized, in the good sense, and sure, some have protested against its policies about it being too authoritarian and such, but I personally like how clean, friendly and chill this place is. Just hang out in well-kept places like ours, and everything will be alright, no assholes to find! 4 Share this post Link to post
Doom_Dude Posted September 9, 2020 I would have preferred never to have entered whatever this thread is. 9 Share this post Link to post
Burktross Posted September 9, 2020 I just wanna DOOM for god's sake. https://i.imgur.com/boY9PTv.png 6 Share this post Link to post
Aaron Blain Posted September 9, 2020 I'm so sorry to hear all this, and I'm not at all surprised. My first taste of this was when I stumbled onto a youtuber called RPGPundit who uses his role in the OSR industry as a pretense to make long reactionary rants. I'd like to wade in and push back against the toxic culture in a patient and reasonable way, but if I'm honest with myself I'm not really a TTRPG player anymore (I'm a wargamer), so I don't feel qualified to argue in this sphere. I think narratives about the past always have this dual quality. Look at the cover art for Great Battles of Alexander. It's a positive, neutral depiction of a Persian and a Spartan as equal, competent counterparts. We could have a whole conversation about 300, but in short I think it's clearly a modern Starship Troopers; but for many fans it's an unironic affirmation of white supremacy. People with both outlooks are inevitably always going to be interacting, and I think you just have to be always on your guard, and always trying to push back against reactionary aggression. Look at Doomworld. I'm always afraid that a reactionary element will creep in here, but when someone comes along who says Doom is an example of how great videogames were before they were ruined by inclusion and human decency, the community responds with zero tolerance. I think we just need people to keep working to nurture the decent side of OSR. 4 Share this post Link to post
CoyoteComrade Posted September 9, 2020 1 hour ago, Toilet_Wine_Connoisseur said: Dont let any reactionary CHUDS Off topic to the point of being questionable, but I didn't know Chud was a acronym until just now. Anyway.... I do think DW is probably the best place to bring this up, being probably one of the biggest, oldest, and most importantly moderatoredest gathering points for people interested in retro shooters (tho theres very little build discussion, but thats fine because its Doomworld) and that this is an important thing to bring up, honestly. Old school shooters draw an old school crowd, and some things are better left in the 90's. 2 Share this post Link to post
Toilet_Wine_Connoisseur Posted September 9, 2020 5 minutes ago, Error-404 said: Off topic to the point of being questionable, but I didn't know Chud was a acronym until just now. Anyway.... I do think DW is probably the best place to bring this up, being probably one of the biggest, oldest, and most importantly moderatoredest gathering points for people interested in retro shooters (tho theres very little build discussion, but thats fine because its Doomworld) and that this is an important thing to bring up, honestly. Old school shooters draw an old school crowd, and some things are better left in the 90's. Dont how that is off topic when the OP is specifically talking about people with reactionary views negatively affecting a community (TTRPG and Retro FPS in particular) and "chud' is what those people are referred to as. that being said, yes some things are better left in the 90s. we are in full agreement there. 0 Share this post Link to post
[McD] James Posted September 9, 2020 The only thing that should be left in the 90s is nu-metal. 8 Share this post Link to post
NoXion Posted September 9, 2020 Just now, Ajora said: The only thing that should be left in the 90s is nu-metal. I thought that was an early-2000s thing. Have I misremembered? 0 Share this post Link to post
[McD] James Posted September 9, 2020 4 minutes ago, NoXion said: I thought that was an early-2000s thing. Have I misremembered? Korn, Limp Bizkit, Slipknot, Papa Roach, and Powerman 5000 all debuted in the 90s. 1 Share this post Link to post
NoXion Posted September 9, 2020 Just now, Ajora said: Korn, Limp Bizkit, Slipknot, Papa Roach, and Powerman 5000 all debuted in the 90s. Well fuck me, that's another trend I was late for. 1 Share this post Link to post
Altazimuth Posted September 9, 2020 I had to revise this post (i.e. completely start over) quite a lot as it kept ending up rather angry; let's hope this time it comes out better. I think Plums' post was a good addition to the initial one. It's extremely important to not let shitheads become too well-rooted and important in a community before anything can be done about them *coughs*. Realms Deep definitely was somewhat offputting, having seen a game made by peers platformed alongside one by a neo-nazi. I sincerely hope that the current revival of retro-style shooters doesn't become infested with shitheads. I certainly have 0 plans on purchasing any games by hateful sorts, and want to see the scene unwelcoming to the unwelcoming. 7 Share this post Link to post
Not Jabba Posted September 9, 2020 I would hate for Doom to be labeled as part of the "boomer shooter community" as well, but I think we run a very real risk of being associated with anything that is negative about it in the broader gaming culture. Even within Doom mapping, it's pretty clear that there's a "nostalgia comfort food" movement that often is (and sometimes isn't) associated with regressionary political attitudes for obvious reasons by people who were young in the 90s and therefore think of the 90s as golden years. Part of what's allowed the Doom community to survive is that we have a continuous history rather than being a passing revival fad, and this has allowed us to grow and change for the better as a community. So I don't have a lot to add beyond what everyone on this particular Doom fan forum already knows: it's ok to love what you love, but toxic behavior cannot and will not be tolerated here. 21 Share this post Link to post
seed Posted September 9, 2020 (edited) 3 hours ago, DSC said: Going a bit off-topic here, but thats one of the reasons I love DW so much. This site is very scrutinized, in the good sense, and sure, some have protested against its policies about it being too authoritarian and such, but I personally like how clean, friendly and chill this place is. Just hang out in well-kept places like ours, and everything will be alright, no assholes to find! Compared to what other communities turned into, yeah, with all its flaws it's still light years ahead, clean, and sane, despite the occasional drama, drama stirred up for stupid reasons no less... At any rate, toxicity and people having nothing but that to share shouldn't be welcomed, let alone encouraged, that's one way to ensure no-one will ever want to be part of it, and a safe way to ensure it will gradually rot from within. Rotten apples are found everywhere but that doesn't mean they have to spread. Edited September 9, 2020 by seed 5 Share this post Link to post
DSC Posted September 9, 2020 And now that I think of it, the term "boomer shooter" is a complete misnomer, I'm very sure boomers weren't the ones playing Doom and Quake back in the 90's... 1 Share this post Link to post
Scuba Steve Posted September 9, 2020 (edited) 3 minutes ago, DSC said: And now that I think of it, the term "boomer shooter" is a complete misnomer, I'm very sure boomers weren't the ones playing Doom and Quake back in the 90's... *Jim Flynn, Ty Halderman, John Anderson...* Actually, when you look at the first people digging into Doom's codebase and modding abilities... 7 Share this post Link to post
seed Posted September 9, 2020 4 minutes ago, DSC said: And now that I think of it, the term "boomer shooter" is a complete misnomer, I'm very sure boomers weren't the ones playing Doom and Quake back in the 90's... No, but that's the inevitable problem that shows up with old games, the perception of the intellectually lazy and misinformed who think that they're really only played by old people or people who were already well into adulthood when they came out, as a result also people "who refuse to move on", no way new generations and younger people would be interested in "relics from the distant past". 3 Share this post Link to post
GarrettChan Posted September 9, 2020 I don't know whether this is the correct place to ask. What does Boomer actually mean? As I searched the term, it refers to the baby Boomer generations who were born in around 1945 ~ 1965. However, recently, there are quite a few people call themselves a Boomer even though they are just around 30. Is that a sarcastic joke to himself about being outdated or something? 3 Share this post Link to post