It's time to talk seriously about the state of the boomer shooter renaissance and what it entails.

[Gothic]

1 hour ago, GarrettChan said:

I don't know whether this is the correct place to ask. What does Boomer actually mean?

 

As I searched the term, it refers to the baby Boomer generations who were born in around 1945 ~ 1965. However, recently, there are quite a few people call themselves a Boomer even though they are just around 30. Is that a sarcastic joke to himself about being outdated or something?

It's a mocking term to people who rants about how things were better back in their time.

[lazygecko]

18 minutes ago, DSC said:

And now that I think of it, the term "boomer shooter" is a complete misnomer, I'm very sure boomers weren't the ones playing Doom and Quake back in the 90's...

 

"Gen X Shooter" doesn't quite roll off the tongue the same way.

[whirledtsar]

Its great that 3D Realms isnt like a typical publisher and wont completely throw their devs under the bus at the first sign of controversy. Actually talented veteran modders/developers are worth way more to the "scene" than some random whiners who cant handle anybody who doesnt fall in line.

[BoxY]

I feel like it's pointless to call any arbitrarily defined collection of people a community unless there's some effective mechanism for regulating behaviour within that group, which on the internet usually takes the form of consensus norms enforced by actual moderation, so I'd argue that no such thing as a "boomer shooter community" can or will ever exist, because it's a mirage caused by a number of socially unrelated people happening to be interested in that stuff, and occasionally interacting with each other in an unmoderated space, or forming their own social cells which function as micro-communities. As such stuff like twitter drama is doesn't have a wider significance on anything or anyone except the participants. If something toxic happened in a Duke Nukem fan discord then later someone told me that it reflected badly on me and my "community" because I once played a Build game, I would consider that quite ridiculous. On the other hand I do consider Doomworld a community (not to be confused with Doom fan activity in general, which is not), and I think the level of toxicity and bad behaviour has been consistently very low (if you don't mention Brutal Doom at least), with no concerning trends.

 

Moreover the original post frankly smells of badly managed stress, anger and anxiety to me (I'm not trying to be mean by calling it, but it matters), with a huge pile of vague accusations and insults cast around about various things that happened here and there, none of them having much direct relevance to things that are happening here, or even in the classic shooter "community" in many cases. This is not the mindset you want to have when starting a "serious talk" and could even be described as a form of toxic and undesirable behaviour in itself (although I'll give the benefit of the doubt that the intention is good). In all, if this is a discussion that actually needs to be had, then this surely isn't the way to start it.

[Boomslang]

we'll be fine.

[Boomslang]

as long as people (on both sides) don't act like fucking tools, we'll be fine.

[Voiceguy1]

Hello there fellow -*checks notes*- "Doom modding community" members! It has come to my attention that this small corner of the internet hasn't been infested with partisan, highly polarized shitflinging yet. I'm just here to let you know that I belong to Group A. Due to this fact, if I see anyone here who is part of Group B, or who I perceive as being part of Group B, I am going to cause problems. Don't worry though, I'm doing it for your own good!

[Dooomer]

I don't really care about assholes on the community, I just want to DOOOOOOOOOOOM

[Burktross]

5 minutes ago, Voiceguy1 said:

Hello there fellow -*checks notes*- "Doom modding community" members! It has come to my attention that this small corner of the internet hasn't been infested with partisan, highly polarized shitflinging yet. I'm just here to let you know that I belong to Group A. Due to this fact, if I see anyone here who is part of Group B, or who I perceive as being part of Group B, I am going to cause problems. Don't worry though, I'm doing it for your own good!

Fellow Group A members, do not be deceived. Voiceguy1 is, in fact, part of Group B-- the very group he purports to despise.

[Scuba Steve]

49 minutes ago, whirledtsar said:

Its great that 3D Realms isnt like a typical publisher and wont completely throw their devs under the bus at the first sign of controversy. Actually talented veteran modders/developers are worth way more to the "scene" than some random whiners who cant handle anybody who doesnt fall in line.

 

Nah, mediocre modders who move on to create their own projects are a dime-a-dozen. There's no shortage of good, decent members of this community who could go on to make a game of the quality seen in the 3D realms presentation.

[MannerKing]

You act like there is a monster closet with toxic, racist and misogynist Chaingunners behind it and if we cross a certain linedef then the Chaingunners will kill the community. I disagree with this notion.

[scalliano]

"Human rights are for cucks," said no real person ever.

 

You know, all this talk about "reactionary chuds" lurking around every corner strikes me as the kind of bad faith, unhinged paranoia that pervades places like ResetEra and frankly has never amounted to anything more than an excuse to excise people whom the complaining party doesn't like. As someone vehemently opposed to identitarianism (because I'm from Northern Ireland and I've seen where it leads - roughly 3,500 people dead over a period of 30 years), I will never be okay with race, religion, gender etc being used as a yardstick to judge another person. Even if they are the so-called "default" (you know what I mean). What is more reactionary than creating division between different groups of people who would otherwise get along despite their disagreements?

 

That was what happened here in 1969 and carried on for decades. I still remember being 6 and having to run a gauntlet of heavily armed British soldiers patrolling my street on the way to school, partly terrified in case one of them got spooked and opened fire on me, and partly hoping they would so I wouldn't have to face another kicking in the schoolyard for being a specky nerd. It's why I don't take kindly to accusations of prejudice and/or privilege - I spent the formative years of my life being shunned because - guess what - gaming WASN'T cool when I was growing up.

Gaming, like any other culture, evolves over time (gaming ESPECIALLY, given the technological advancements). But just like any other culture, it cannot be arbitrarily altered easily. Certainly, go ahead and do it, it's a free market after all. Just don't be surprised or offended if the regulars aren't very receptive. It doesn't make them bigots. I'm sorry, but if you look at an Orc and immediately think of a black person, that's on you.

 

Sorry for getting so heavy, but this is something I feel really strongly about. Seriously, I'll say it again. Get off Twitter.

 

"You wanna play? Let's play. Leave your politics at the door." - Liana Kerzner

 

Also, +1 what Boxy and Boomslang said.

[M_W]

I've already left one retro-shooter community because literally two members flooded the discourse with Jewish conspiracy theory videos from shady websites, and now that's what the whole community has become. Mods didn't do anything about it, and everyone else left, and now that's all it is. It doesn't take a lot of effort. Just one moderately determined asshole and people who will look the other way. Same reason I stopped participating in the OSR community.

So, yeah, I get it.

[Altazimuth]

3 minutes ago, scalliano said:

What is more reactionary than creating division between different groups of people who would otherwise get along despite their disagreements?

I mean, generally, I'm very happy to create division between myself and homophobes, transphobes, nazis, and all other varieties of hateful shithead. The more division the better. I'm also happy creating division between myself and those who defend those types.

I don't think that I should have to get along with people who I'd like despite their being hateful either. "Why can't we just get along" doesn't work when you're trying to get along with people who think other types of people shouldn't exist.

[DSC]

10 minutes ago, scalliano said:

"Human rights are for cucks," said no real person ever.

 

That exact quote may have never been spoken, but certain variations giving out pratically the same message but in a more clean and disguised tone for sure have.

 

14 minutes ago, scalliano said:

"You wanna play? Let's play. Leave your politics at the door." - Liana Kerzner

Things is, like all forms of media with artistic qualities and merits, gaming is indeed something political: you can't just avoid this reality all the time.

[Allard]

15 hours ago, Man of Doom said:

essentially screwed Mick Gordon out of scoring what would become The Ancient Gods

As far as I remember, the only one screwing Mick Gordon out of scoring The Ancient Gods was one Mick Gordon, via letting his ego get to him and going all prima donna. And after all his antics and frankly unprofessional behavior, he was the one to go "I doubt I'll work with them in the future" which came out of the blue for Hugo and the rest.

 

As for the rest of the post: don't. Just don't. Take it somewhere else.

[Denim Destroyer]

This thread title and opening posts reads like a Salon article. I was expecting a discussion on how these new classic style shooters focus too much on appealing towards nostalgia rather than making something original, not talking about an imaginary problem that only reactionaries care about. Get off websites like Twitter that is nothing but fanatics who militantly attack those with differing ideologies. Seriously, I deleted my account some months ago and I personally feel better not being exposed to the amount of hatred that site loves to cram down their users throat.

Edited September 9, 2020 by Denim Destroyer

[Doomkid]

1 hour ago, Voiceguy1 said:

Hello there fellow -*checks notes*- "Doom modding community" members! It has come to my attention that this small corner of the internet hasn't been infested with partisan, highly polarized shitflinging yet. I'm just here to let you know that I belong to Group A. Due to this fact, if I see anyone here who is part of Group B, or who I perceive as being part of Group B, I am going to cause problems. Don't worry though, I'm doing it for your own good!

Both your post and the fact that you felt it necessary to alias made me laugh, well played.

 

There are definitely people who think human rights are a joke though, it's not a strawman. I've seen lots of weird shit from people arguing against the rights of gays to marry, people arguing against the right for tans people to join the military, people arguing that blacks are "just more violent statistically" and all kinds of other shit with a clear "this demographic should be viewed as sub-human" slant to it. The fact that some of you have literally never witnessed this is great, but they exist.

 

The thing is, despite that, they are definitely a minority from my observations. Most people aren't going out of their way to spread hate, they just want to have a bit of fun. So while it's an issue that should be remembered, blowing it up to extreme proportions when it's ultimately a "few and far between" thing does no one any good.

Edited September 9, 2020 by Doomkid

[BigBoy91]

I'm just glad we're in a time where we have access to all this content. There are assholes everywhere. There's also gonna be an abundance of shit games. I just don't play the shit games or humor the pricks. Am I oversimplifying things? Probably.

[seed]

45 minutes ago, Altazimuth said:

I mean, generally, I'm very happy to create division between myself and homophobes, transphobes, nazis, and all other varieties of hateful shithead. The more division the better. I'm also happy creating division between myself and those who defend those types.

I don't think that I should have to get along with people who I'd like despite their being hateful either. "Why can't we just get along" doesn't work when you're trying to get along with people who think other types of people shouldn't exist.

 

But these people & more should also not be reduced to silence either. I'm personally quite vehemently anti-censorship regardless of how idiotic are some ways some people can possibly think.

 

And besides, I want assholes spewing shit out in the open where I can see them, I don't want to see them behind a hypocritical "nice" mask so that I know who I should be avoiding, and so will everybody else.

[Altazimuth]

9 minutes ago, seed said:

I'm personally quite vehemently anti-censorship regardless of how idiotic are some ways some people can possibly think. 

I dunno as a Jew I'd rather not be somewhere that people are free to make anti-Semitic remarks because "free speech is protected here." That's not getting into weeds of trends like free speech warriors failing to complain when somebody they dislike is silenced, because so often what people purport as "right to free speech" is actually "the right to say specifically what I want without recourse."

Hate speech shouldn't be allowed, simple as.

[DSC]

20 minutes ago, seed said:

 

But these people & more should also not be reduced to silence either. I'm personally quite vehemently anti-censorship regardless of how idiotic are some ways some people can possibly think.

 

And besides, I want assholes spewing shit out in the open where I can see them, I don't want to see them behind a hypocritical "nice" mask so that I know who I should be avoiding, and so will everybody else.

I'm pro free-speech, like any sane person, and I agree. The thing is though, a bigots statements aren't always presented in a state where they can be easily ridiculed and or criticised. There is colossal a difference between publishing Mein Kampf as it originally was and publishing it with sidenotes debunking all the idiocy it contains.

[seed]

2 minutes ago, DSC said:

I'm pro free-speech, like any sane person, and I agree. The thing is though, a bigots statements aren't always presented in a state where they can be easily ridiculed and or criticised. There is colossal a difference between publishing Mein Kampf as it originally was and publishing it with sidenotes debunking all the idiocy it contains.

 

Never said it shouldn't be opposed and challenged.

[DSC]

Just now, seed said:

 

Never said it shouldn't be opposed and challenged.

I know, I too never said otherwise. Its pretty obvious from your original post you don't tolerate any crap they spew out.

[scalliano]

36 minutes ago, Altazimuth said:

I mean, generally, I'm very happy to create division between myself and homophobes, transphobes, nazis, and all other varieties of hateful shithead. The more division the better. I'm also happy creating division between myself and those who defend those types.

I don't think that I should have to get along with people who I'd like despite their being hateful either. "Why can't we just get along" doesn't work when you're trying to get along with people who think other types of people shouldn't exist.

Preemptive name-calling such as the above is precisely what I'm talking about. I find it personally unpalateable, but I will never call for your expulsion from the internet/your job/your payment processor because of it. Ultimately, that is what the OP is canvassing for. You know those soldiers I mentioned? Let me finish that story for you.

 

As I was passing one of them, watching his every move like my life depended on it, he acknowlwdged me, and in the thickest Manchester accent, said, "Alright, our kid? Ya goin' to school?" I nodded at him without saying a word. And that was it. Nothing else happened, other than my realization that, fuck me, they're actually human beings too, and they probably don't want to be here as much as I want them gone.

 

No one is telling you who you should and shouldn't hang around with. In fact, personally choosing not to associate with someone is exactly what I'm advocating, rather than relying on some authority figure to gulag their ass. But if you spend your entire life assuming the absolute worst in people just because of a difference of opinion, you're gonna be pretty miserable. Some people have had bad experiences that have clouded their judgement. Of course, there are just straight assholes, but there are FAR fewer of them in the real world than social media (or even mainstream media) would have you believe.

 

Get.

Off.

Twitter.

 

50 minutes ago, DSC said:

That exact quote may have never been spoken, but certain variations giving out pratically the same message but in a more clean and disguised tone for sure have.

 

Things is, like all forms of media with artistic qualities and merits, gaming is indeed something political: you can't just avoid this reality all the time.

Ah, yes, this much-fabled "dog-whistle" I've heard so much about. I've never personally encountered it. Make of that what you will.

 

As far as artistic works go, it's all about internal politics versus external politics. Internal politics are pretty much inevitable and a natural part of storytelling. External politics are invariably straight up propaganda and are where the issue lies for me. However, I was speaking more with regard to the fans themselves. If you consider yourself a fan of a work/hobby/whatever, and then claim that something fundamental to it is problematic and needs to be changed to suit your beliefs, then were you really a fan? Of course it is entirely legitimate to have criticisms of a work that you love, but if the issue comes down to the main character having the wrong skin colour/gender/religion, that's not a problem with the work. Let me make it live for you...

 

We're hearing a lot coming out of the US about various police departments engaging in racial profiling and that it is racist. And I agree that it is. It should not be a factor in apprehending suspects. But if racial profiling is bad (and it is), why do it with media? Because when a work is scrutinized purely because of its ratio of different ehnicities, that's racial profiling. Same goes for gender, sexuality and all other immutable characteristics that we are being told we need to judge people upon under the conceit of "inclusion".

 

I look at what is happening in California with the Affirmative Action Bill. I've read the Bill and it is nightmarish - it has fuck-all to do with AA and is literally scrubbing the part of the Constitution that prohibits discrimination or favourable treatment based on race, gender, sexuality, all that jazz. In their neverending crusade to prove how not bigoted they are, they are effectively re-legalizing "No Blacks No Irish No Dogs".

 

Like I said, who are the real "reactionaries" here?

[DNSKILL5]

I’m for free speech as well, and I’m against bigotry in any way, shape, or form... but, I think these witch hunts are stupid and posts like these solve NOTHING.
 

You may feel safe now but what’s going to stop someone from canceling you when they find something you have been hiding? Like I said, everyone has at least one skeleton in their closet, and when you actively try to rip other people’s skeletons out of their closets... yours tend to find their own way out of your closet much sooner than you’d expect. It works both ways.  
 

Bigots suck, but you only give them more power by showing how much they bother you, and you can try to argue that point but it is the truth. Words do nothing but fuel their anger. 

[Altazimuth]

5 minutes ago, scalliano said:

Preemptive name-calling such as the above is precisely what I'm talking about.

Are you arguing that nazis, transphobes, homophobes, and the like aren't shitheads?

[DNSKILL5]

Just now, Altazimuth said:

Are you arguing that nazis, transphobes, homophobes, and the like aren't shitheads?

They’re not arguing that. Are you?

[Scuba Steve]

7 minutes ago, scalliano said:

Like I said, who are the real "reactionaries" here?

 

You're literally 'reacting' to a California amendment that does none of the things you claim it does.

 

Just now, Gerolf said:

They’re not. Are you?

 

Oooh sorry, that's incorrect. The answer we were looking for is "Yes, yes they are."

[Linguica]

I see this this thread has already gone from "boomer shooters, what's the deal?" to the usual culture war adjacent stuff which we get enough of already.