The 128 kb mapping extragavanza "challenge"*

[Chris Hansen]

1 hour ago, maxresdefault said:

I'm glad that you liked my map! I don't know if I would call it hard but maybe if you don't know what lies ahead then it would be a little harder. Not sure what the "TimeOfDeath goes in 1994 and make a map" means but I take it as a compliment, thanks.
You mean that these textures are missing? The map should be completable from start to finish so I hope you don't mean that the switches don't work. By the way, do you see any HOM? I can see them near the pillars at the start of the level when I'm playing with PrBoom but when it's GLBoom then they do not appear. Not sure what to do about that.

I played your level and I was actually surprised that I very much enjoyed the gameplay. I found it tricky, surprising and occasionally a lot of fun! I mean, gunning down thousands of former humans is just too much fun!

 

The looks of the level lacks a bit though. I mean, the general layout is fine and there's a fine progression that isn't too hard to figure out. There's a good correlation between the architecture and the fights meaning that even though you release Demons in tight spaces there's still just enough room for them and you to maneuver freely. Big fights require bigger spaces and you seem to hit the sweet spot there.

 

I'm not too keen on some of the appearence of the level though. I'm a little confused over the style at times. Some of the texture and flat combinations combined with the all too important lighting come across as a bit lazy. There are rooms where I can see you spent longer time than others. One room in particular seems to have been built in 5 mins using most of DoomBuilder's stock textures, flats and lighting. Now, that doesn't mean it's wrong, I just think that 10 mins of extra work would do wonders! :) Overall I think the level is fine, but there are some clear signs that you still need to learn a couple of things. And by the looks of it, that wont be a problem :)

 

This brings me back to the quote above: First of all you can easily solve the problem with pillars by raising the ceiling of sector 218 to 176 like the other sky sectors. Then mark linedef 886 as lower unpegged. That should be it. Another problem is path to the secret soulsphere. It keeps the player on the ledge via impassable lines. Nothing wrong with that. It just breaks the fourth wall a bit when an invisible barrier is preventing you from jumping down. You can keep the impassable lines, but use a mid-texture on them instead. Or keep the lines impassable but create a small wall that lets the player look over it, but not go across it. Ohh btw: The switch that lowers the pillar to reveal the path to the soulsphere: I seriously wonder if any player will ever figure that out! I mean, the texture is exactly the same as all the other comp textures, so unless you're the "I hump all the walls I can see" type, then you will most likely never find it! I had to look in the editor to figure it out.

 

Keep up the good work, I enjoyed this one! Not for it's looks, but for the insane gameplay! :)

[BoxY]

Knocked together a first beta for my map, thing and resource placement is a bit rough still but I did some runs and it's at least beatable. Seeing the file size tick up 1 kB at a time while finishing geometry was intensely stressful. It's a short (~5-7 min for UV max) map with small scale arena fights and a few traps. Grab the plasma and hold left click to win.

 

Download 125 kB monkaOMEGA

 

Slot: E4M1 (actual slot will be different, probably mid-episode but I'll leave it to Walter)

Name: idk yet, maybe "Destruction Cometh" or "Come and See" in keeping with E4's theme of pompous bible quotes

Tested: glboom+, prboom+ both -complevel 9, haven't tested GZDoom yet. Looks best in software

Difficulty: UV only so far (will start lower skills tomorrow). UV is only moderately difficult right now, nothing crazy

 

Known issues

-boring WOODx and METAL spam everywhere, sorry, if I have to place those textures again in my life I'll start breaking things

-some sector lighting is the wrong level and sticks out

-cacos are a bit too good at blocking the plasma sometimes, you can usually still shoot through them

-imps will rarely get knocked into the pits in the cross arena, but you can still kill them

-baron teleport in first hallway is a bit slow, dunno how to fix this, maybe trigger earlier

-raising platforms to soulsphere don't change floor flat, not sure how to do that yet

-little pillars of death in cross arena are maybe too small, but I kind of like them that way

-some areas lack a few health pickups and it's difficult to refill lost armour

-cube hallway near the end looks like crap, detail got expensive

-barons are trash but I still used some, sorry. Sadly there are few options in ultimate doom for mid level enemies that control floor space without being too tanky (nerf hp in .deh maybe? :) )

-walkway area by lava pit is a bit empty and boring considering the large space

-too low enemy counts in some other areas

-secret fight gives BFG, not sure if this messes with continuous play or if that's even an issue

-secret fight probably too easy (might add another cyber for UV)

-final fight is a bit easy and basic too, and the arena is ugly

-plasma ammo supply isn't very well balanced yet

-if you miss the first secret you can't go back and get it :$, will change exit room teleport destination later

 

comments, FDA's etc. appreciated.

 

Pix

Spoiler

 

[Walter confetti]

Thanks for the map! Added to the map list, i'll choose the better title that suits it between the two you gave us...

 

EDIT: I'll go with Destruction Cometh as a file name, will go on the later half of the episode if there's no other more harder map than this. Pretty cool small slaughtermap. Anyway, did the midi you used have a title? Also, you can try to use the newer monster i complied out, is on the OP post. It could be useful for replacing that beefy barons (or i can just nerf them a little their health next time i work on the universal dehacked).

Edited September 16, 2020 by Walter confetti

[Walter confetti]

@Roebloz you said that you'll make two 64 kb maps... For what slot?

 

Sorry for double posting.

[SilverMiner]

I've just made a small map --> Metabolism by SilverMiner.zip

Targeting for E2M9 slot and E2M9 music

Added only one texture for a technical purpose (you can find it in TEXTURE2 lump)

 

[maxresdefault]

21 hours ago, Iacobus said:

Jokes aside, the map is pretty fun. As you said, once you know what's coming the difficulty drops considerably. I died in the blue key room the first time around and raged quit thinking it was too spammy. Came back to it later and beat it in the second attempt. My only criticisms are the linearity and the lack of variation in gameplay (trigger trap/kill monsters/recover health), but everything was well executed and fun to romp thorugh, and the map is short enough to not get repetitive. I have a raw footage of the third playthrough in case you want to watch it, I'll post as soon as it's ready.

Thanks for your input! In this map I wanted to use primarily zombiemen because the phrase "Knee-Deep in the Dead" invoked the image of killing dozens of weaklings with a chaingun. But I figured there is not much you can do with them to challenge the player, so I decided that their strength is in numbers and the element of suprise. And the map heavily emphasises usage of a chaingun so I coudn't use stronger demons, especially if I want for this map to be in an early E1(maybe even E1M1). And thanks to your video I blocked monsters from entering the building but also closed the back entrance once you're out. Also noticed deaf tag where it shouldn't be.

 

20 hours ago, Chris Hansen said:

I'm not too keen on some of the appearence of the level though. I'm a little confused over the style at times. Some of the texture and flat combinations combined with the all too important lighting come across as a bit lazy.

In this map I did some experimenting with textures and lighting but I primarity focused on combinations looking nice together. Not sure if I succeded but in my next map I'll try to improve on that front. I personally think that I can learn much from this project.

 

20 hours ago, Chris Hansen said:

There are rooms where I can see you spent longer time than others. One room in particular seems to have been built in 5 mins using most of DoomBuilder's stock textures, flats and lighting. Now, that doesn't mean it's wrong, I just think that 10 mins of extra work would do wonders! :)

Let me guess, the room with startan textures? It was a second room I created and it was never really changed until I finished the map. Unlike the blue key room which in my eyes is the most important room of this map, so I redesigned it a couple of times, I felt that this room was not that important. And yeah, I totally used stock textures in the beginning, you got me. Was pretty confused why there were no textures of hanged dudes on the wall.
 

20 hours ago, Chris Hansen said:

This brings me back to the quote above: First of all you can easily solve the problem with pillars by raising the ceiling of sector 218 to 176 like the other sky sectors. Then mark linedef 886 as lower unpegged. That should be it.

That worked, thanks!
 

20 hours ago, Chris Hansen said:

Another problem is path to the secret soulsphere. It keeps the player on the ledge via impassable lines. Nothing wrong with that. It just breaks the fourth wall a bit when an invisible barrier is preventing you from jumping down. You can keep the impassable lines, but use a mid-texture on them instead. Or keep the lines impassable but create a small wall that lets the player look over it, but not go across it.

I would do a wall if I have kilobytes to work with. I think there are some to be saved by simplifying the stairs but I wanted to add a second secret. And I really want for the player to take a look at the outside area, I personally think that it's quite pretty. I'll try to do a wall.
 

20 hours ago, Chris Hansen said:

The switch that lowers the pillar to reveal the path to the soulsphere: I seriously wonder if any player will ever figure that out! I mean, the texture is exactly the same as all the other comp textures, so unless you're the "I hump all the walls I can see" type, then you will most likely never find it! I had to look in the editor to figure it out.

I agree with that. I changed sidedefs of that computer from COMPUTE2 to COMPOSHO. Hopefully it will be enough.

Thanks for the input and your help! And sorry for the late reply, I had a terrible headache yesterday so I decided to take a break.

Edited September 17, 2020 by maxresdefault

[Chris Hansen]

17 hours ago, BoxY said:

Known issues

-boring WOODx and METAL spam everywhere, sorry, if I have to place those textures again in my life I'll start breaking things

-some sector lighting is the wrong level and sticks out

-baron teleport in first hallway is a bit slow, dunno how to fix this, maybe trigger earlier

-raising platforms to soulsphere don't change floor flat, not sure how to do that yet

-some areas lack a few health pickups and it's difficult to refill lost armour

-cube hallway near the end looks like crap, detail got expensive

-too low enemy counts in some other areas

-secret fight gives BFG, not sure if this messes with continuous play or if that's even an issue

-secret fight probably too easy (might add another cyber for UV)

-final fight is a bit easy and basic too, and the arena is ugly

-plasma ammo supply isn't very well balanced yet

 

Played your level and I loved it! I wouldn't say that the lighting or the texturing is bland or boring. I think it was fine. Sure, if we weren't restricted by the filesize something could be done. But I think you managed to produce a very cool level with what you had! The gameplay was super fun (played on HNTR) and saved before each arena. It was pretty easy to tell when shit was about to go down! But I don't mind that in a level of this type. The smaller fights in between were nice breathers to make sure that someone cocky would perhaps take a few hits and be less prepared for the next big brawl.

 

I found 1 secret and killed everything. The secret BFG fight was fun on the lower skill setting; like everything else. I found the ammo and health balance to be just right for me. Enough for me to not get scared shitless, but still enough of it and placed in such a way that I always felt comfortable.

 

If you want help with those issues like the floors not changing from lava, then I'd love to help. You can send me a PM if you want to see what I would do to solve that issue as well as the slowing teleporting Baron.

 

All in all: Had a lot of fun! No reason to change the looks too much, as gameplay is king here in a level of this type! :)

[Pechudin]

Gotta say that this is a great little mapping project. Previously it took me a month to make a map, but I managed, in about 10 hours over 5 days to make a nice little map. This greatly helps me speed up my mapping! This map will not be in the main bunch though.

 

Spoiler

 

Edited September 17, 2020 by Pechudin

[Chris Hansen]

1 hour ago, maxresdefault said:

I would do a wall if I have kilobytes to work with. I think there are some to be saved by simplifying the stairs but I wanted to add a second secret. And I really want for the player to take a look at the outside area, I personally think that it's quite pretty. I'll try to do a wall.

Find a smaller midi and you're golden! ;)

 

Gonna send you a version of your map with a few changes in a PM. Check it out if you're curious. Changes are in the room and rooms around the blue key area.

[Walter confetti]

Cool stuff, guys! I'll add Silver map to OP post

[BoxY]

17 hours ago, Walter confetti said:

EDIT: I'll go with Destruction Cometh as a file name, will go on the later half of the episode if there's no other more harder map than this. Pretty cool small slaughtermap. Anyway, did the midi you used have a title? Also, you can try to use the newer monster i complied out, is on the OP post. It could be useful for replacing that beefy barons (or i can just nerf them a little their health next time i work on the universal dehacked).

 

Thanks. :) My original intention wasn't really to make anything too slaughtery but I guess I can't help myself. Midi is Death Waltz in B Minor by PRIMEVAL, I meant to put it in the post but forgot. I got it from ihmn.wad, not sure what the original source is.

 

I'd like to try the war imp out but I can't find the thing it's supposed to replace in the editor when I load the resources, I have no idea why. I've never mapped with monster replacing deh before so I'm probably just messing up something simple.

 

1 hour ago, Chris Hansen said:

Played your level and I loved it! (...)

 

Thanks for the kind feedback! Good to hear everything felt balanced, a lot of it was guesswork. I'm not sure if I'll bother to fix the lava flats because it's a small flaw and I'm too sick of working on the map to re-script anything right now, but I'll keep the offer in mind.

 

-----------

 

Anyway, beta 2 is now out here: Download (126 kb) Slot: E4M1

 

Changes

-now tested and working in GZDoom 4.4.1. The platform arena feels a bit harder in GZDoom, probably because I'm not used to its silly player acceleration physics

-(rudimentary) difficulty settings implemented, HNTR is forgiving, UV is harder now, HMP is a slightly nerfed UV

-exit room tele now correctly puts the player at spawn allowing for proper backtracking

-added co-op starts (no co-op balance though)

-secret switch slightly more hidden and does not appear on automap, still quite obvious

-monster count and difficulty on UV slightly increased in most areas

-small fixes in monster placement

-buffed secret fight

-buffed end fight a bit

-health and ammo balance improved a bit

-you can now reset your green armour before the cross arena

-several small texture and lighting fixes

 

by the way I tried out wadptr as @Scypek2 suggested and it knocked a substantial 15% off the size of my test wad, I didn't need the space in the end but if anyone is struggling to optimise their wad size, I highly recommend it.

[Walter confetti]

54 minutes ago, BoxY said:

I'd like to try the war imp out but I can't find the thing it's supposed to replace in the editor when I load the resources, I have no idea why. I've never mapped with monster replacing deh before so I'm probably just messing up something simple.

 

It replaces the "blood and guts 2" thing...

[maxresdefault]

58 minutes ago, Chris Hansen said:

Find a smaller midi and you're golden! ;)

 

Gonna send you a version of your map with a few changes in a PM. Check it out if you're curious. Changes are in the room and rooms around the blue key area.

I am not sure if there's a smaller midi that fits this map better than Suspence.
I checked it out a really liked the changes you did. Kinda ashamed that I didn't thought to do what you did with the impassable wall in the secret as I already did something similar in the outside area. Really dig the lighting but not sure what action 261 does and how it works. Interesting that you changed some textures in that room to sladwall. And the blue key room looks really nice.

[Roebloz]

7 hours ago, Walter confetti said:

@Roebloz you said that you'll make two 64 kb maps... For what slot?

 

Sorry for double posting.

E2M4 and E3M8.

[Walter confetti]

Ok, you've got it.

[Pechudin]

@Walter confetti, I said I'd like to take an E2 slot, to be specific I'd like the E2M7 slot if it is possible. If not, then whichever remains.

[TenenteZashu]

Sounds fun, I'm going to work on some maps and sprites and i'll probably update this comment once i'm done.

One question: If i'm gonna use a couple maps my uncle made back in 2001 does it count as cheating? :P

[Walter confetti]

Good!

14 hours ago, TenenteZashu said:

One question: If i'm gonna use a couple maps my uncle made back in 2001 does it count as cheating?

Until it's under or equal 128 kb and works for boom + doom.wad and it's unreleased, everything is accepted!

Also, what episode you want to have?

Edited September 18, 2020 by Walter confetti

[TenenteZashu]

25 minutes ago, Walter confetti said:

Good!

Until it's under or equal 128 kb and works for boom + doom.wad, everything is accepted!

Also, what episode you want to have?

I'll take Shores of Hell

[Iacobus]

On 9/11/2020 at 4:02 AM, Walter confetti said:

Yes! Sky is the limit!

 

For those who can afford having a sky... *sob*

Btw, is the War Imp a freebie or does it count towards the file size?

 

I'll release an Alpha soon, just gotta give it 1 or 2 good runs to test the later changes. I also have played all maps released so far and I'll be posting all feedbacks at once.

[Walter confetti]

11 minutes ago, Iacobus said:

Btw, is the War Imp a freebie or does it count towards the file size?

 

It's a freebie. Waiting for your alpha!

[Themafla1]

I am interested in making a map for Episode 1 if possible

[Walter confetti]

You've got it!

[Roebloz]

@Walter confettiI used 69kb (NOT ON PURPOSE BEFORE YOU ASK.) for E2M5 is it okay?

[Walter confetti]

Yes, it must be stay under or equal the 128 kb map limit @Roebloz

 

Played @SilverMiner map yesterday on gzdoom 4.4.3, is a really cool short map by the file size of 52 kb iirc (the smallest wad so far!) in the style of... Plutonia? Yeah, it's kinda wacky, but is still a classic doom map. If something more weirder will come, this map will be added to the "standard" mapset, but for now is a good secret map. Didn't find any game breaking bugs. I really liked the floating blue skull pillars when you push the switch!

 

@Pechudin you have it already, check the map list in OP

Edited September 18, 2020 by Walter confetti

[NeedHealth]

@Walter confetti i do an episode 3 map. dont remember much at all honestly of inferno, so this is going to be interesting.

 

there is a bug with the war imp: only one seem to be able to teleport to its destination if you let well 2 do it at the same time. The other one just... disappears.

[Iacobus]

Map Slot: E4M1
Name: ???
Tested with: PrBoom, GlBoom, GzDoom, Chocolate Doom
Size/Length: Medium/aprox. 15 min
Difficulty Settings: Yes

 

th128_alpha.zip

 

    The filesize is 134kb but there's a lot that can be trimmed and I'm hoping to get some sugestions to help me on that. I intend to increase the difficulty for UV and remove some items for the final version aswell.

A few things I'd like to know from you guys, if possible:

Spoiler

- Any exploits/bugs found?
- How do you rank it in terms of difficulty?
- How is the flow of the map?
- How about progression, was that clear?
- Which fights were underwhelming/overwhelming?
- Did you run out of ammo? Where and which type?
- Was there enough health to get by and was it available when needed?

 

Known issues and to do list:

Spoiler

- Texture misalignment is for compression purposes. I'm still working on that;
- Brightness settings and lighting is crude atm;
- The raising bridges segment can cause a softlock if you flip the switches too soon;
- The hanging deco at the end of the bridge is blocking monsters/player on BOOM;
- Monster placement is not optimal, just a rough idea on how I want the encounters to play out;
- Ammo/Health is supposed to be stingy but not sadistic in UV and more was added just for playtesting. Gotta find a good balance;
- The Yellow Key grab and Rocket Launcher grab were pretty early on ideas and need some rework;
- The map needs more ambush spawns but I simply can't affort it and stay at 128k;
- The map needs 1 more secret and a rework of the existent ones.

 

 

[Walter confetti]

2 hours ago, NeedHealth said:

@Walter confetti i do an episode 3 map. dont remember much at all honestly of inferno, so this is going to be interesting.

 

there is a bug with the war imp: only one seem to be able to teleport to its destination if you let well 2 do it at the same time. The other one just... disappears.

 

You've got it! And that's a weird bug, i don't really known how this been possible...

 

Downloaded your map, @Iacobus, i'll see to record a demo of your map... And yeah, is better that you remove some of the execeding bites from the map...

 

EDIT: @SilverMiner map doesn't work on boom ports, due to texture bug! I have to see if there's both TEXTURE1/TEXTURE2 lump in the wad...

Edited September 18, 2020 by Walter confetti

[BoxY]

3 hours ago, Iacobus said:

th128_alpha.zip (...)

 

Just got done with some quick playtesting, unfortunately I wasn't yet able to complete a blind playthrough in either UV or HMP because of weapon and ammo problems. My main issues:

 

-biggest one by far: the rocket launcher is in an optional area and is completely hidden, I had to open the map editor to find where it even was, but you absolutely NEED it for the final fight, and really to do the red key fight without painfully berserking barons for 5 minutes. This needs to be changed, it's way too obscure right now and should be on the main progression.

-ammo and health balance is definitely too stingy in the opening area through to the YK, I think the main problem being the pinkies and spectres everywhere, they waste so much ammo but you need to kill them if you don't want to get blocked constantly while fighting everything else. The caged imps are also a bit much, there are so many that there's no way you can spend enough ammo to kill them all, but then you're frequently eating random fireballs in the YK courtyard when trying to fight and it's impossible to refill your health, so you end up slowly dying to many small hits. I found the ammo problems in this area were a lot less after getting berserk but you get it quite late, so maybe move it earlier into the level, perhaps even the very start - would make the pinkies less annoying and make the combat less slow and grindy in this whole area. Maybe also give green armor at the start, at least for lower skills.

-the caco that camps the yellow key is a real son of a bitch, he's so in your face that it's hard to avoid getting instantly knocked into the 20% damaging lava, which I think is a bit excessive, it could be 5% damaging and still do the same job (it's not a death pit after all). Maybe delete him or at least move him away a bit.

-the hanging corpse on the bridge is indeed very annoying, unnecessary and completely screws anyone who plays in Boom or with Boom compat in GZDoom (I personally do both). Make sure to always test in the complevel that the wad was designed for (9)! I'm also not a fan of having the trees in the YK area, as getting stuck on the janky decoration hitboxes is very annoying, as a general rule I don't think any decorations should ever be in an open area the player has to move around in.

-the plasma secret is probably necessary to kill the cyber and actually exit, I would put one in the last room so the player can at least use the cells that are in there. I also think this secret is way too obscure, the player somehow has to be psychic and figure out without hints that it becomes accessible only after getting the RK, and also run through 20% damaging floor to a hidden lift to get it which they probably don't have enough spare health for anyway. Again I would have no hope of figuring this out if I didn't check the map editor.

-some lifts have the same METAL texture as non-lift surfaces, this is really confusing, so make sure to choose a unique lift texture and make it consistent, I only figured this out by dumb luck but others won't always be so fortunate.

-there are probably just way too many enemies in the small final room on all skill levels, unless you get extremely lucky and the cyber infights everything you run out of space very quickly, but a lot of the time he's doing nothing.

 

All that said, the positives:

-layout and geometry is good, I like the keys and bridge raising progression, and other than the stuff I mentioned, the map layout isn't confusing or overly complicated.

-texturing is good across the board, feels very Ultimate Doom-ish. Shame about the alignment problems, but compromises have to be made.

-fights have good potential, just need some balance passes and definitely some ammo.

 

Overall it's a good start but needs several rounds of balancing, particularly I suggest doing multiple full runs in a row and making sure that it's consistently possible to get 100% kills and exit on UV without getting any secrets, because exiting a map with few or no secrets is a common experience for many players.

 

Edit: played through the level with iddqd and no secrets just to check if killing the cyber is possible on UV, it is if he infights every baron, but I had to finish him off with the shotgun, and 100% kills is not viable without punching a lot of enemies.

Edited September 18, 2020 by BoxY

[Walter confetti]

Here's a pair of FDAs for Iacobus map: fda-walt-th128_alpha.zip (used prboom-plus 2.51.7um, complevel 9)

 

my suggestions for the map are the same of Boxy, plus some other thing i have to say is to give the berserk pack earlier, remove some vertices and some "useless" details like the the metal bars at the hallway left to the starting room, join the sectors that have the same effects, light and type and you'll remove a lot of space taken in kylobites. Overall, really great map given the limitations!