What popular megawads do you think are overrated?

[Archvile Hunter]

32 minutes ago, SilverMiner said:

Sunlust (boring soulless slaughterfests)

Sunlust is a boring and soulless slaughterfest? Did you actually play it, or did you just watch a video of map30 and decry it.

 

Same with the other mapsets you mentioned, there is barely any slaughter in any of them.

[Hitboi]

Maybe Community Chest 1 and Community Chest 3?

 

I can't really say something about them becuase i don't want to research,

Anyway, All i can say that they contain very repetitive fights (Supposed to be Slaughterfest-styled fights but devs are drunk) And CC1's design didn't age well.

Community Chest 2 and 4 are way better in my opinion.

[RichardDS90]

Memento Mori 1 by far. I can never play it in one sitting, I just find it boring.

 

While I DO have a soft spot for the first Community Chest. I do think it's got 1 too many filler maps. Okay granted, some of the filler maps are competent. But Avenger can do one, it's a really crappy map. Map 6 is by far the worst. That key jump on that bridge is no fun.

 

Sunlust is another that I can't play through in one sitting. But like CC1, I do have a bit of a soft spot for it though nontheless, but it's too confusing for my taste.

[Rapp0ng]

Slaughtermaps in general I am not very fond of.

 

The giant mega battles feel like an ordeal i have to get through rather than a fun challenge.

 

That being said I appreciate how well crafted they are and visually they are incredible.

 

But I am more of a fan of the old school charm with monsters lurking in corridors and such.

 

Each to their own, i guess!

 

 

[Lorenz0]

Epic 2 for me. It has a nice atmosphere, but the level design is very often confusing and uninteresting. Progress hidden behind random walls etc. I don't think it has aged well at all.

[RichardDS90]

10 minutes ago, Lorenz0 said:

Epic 2 for me. It has a nice atmosphere, but the level design is very often confusing and uninteresting. Progress hidden behind random walls etc. I don't think it has aged well at all.

I do admit, after playing bits of Epic 2, it does in quite a few ways, feel like a bit of a step back from the first one.

[Thermal Lance]

2 hours ago, SilverMiner said:

Sunlust (boring soulless slaughterfests)

Ancient Aliens (colors make eyes and head hurt, also it's a common slaughterfest wad)

Eviternity (everything is good but slaughterfest parts in round arenas)

Valiant (very high monster count makes me feel it was meant to be a slaughterfest. It's balanced but boring)

Sigil (Overhyped by authority of the Romero, it caused source port devs to implement support specially for fifth episode despite the fact it runs vanilla as third epis lol)

Just want to correct something here. Sigil does not run "vanilla". It requires a limit-removing sourceport otherwise it crashes a few seconds in.

 

[Xulgonoth]

Eviternity.
Great aesthetics, but gameplay ranges between infuriating (which is 99% of the time caused by the awful dehacked enemies) and utterly boring.
I've said this before, but the megawad feels like nothing more than a showcase of OTEX, and while ukiro absolutely deserved a cacoward for the texture pack, Eviternity definitely did not.

And this may be another hot take, but Eternal Doom is brilliant. It has some subpar maps (most being the ones made by Chris Couleur), but Cranium's maps in Eternal Doom are great, especially MAP12 is a masterpiece, and it's a shame that most people only come into contact with his maps in the Master Levels, which are... acquired taste. Also it has to my knowledge one of the first Tyson maps ever made, and it still holds up pretty well today. The only maps I could absolutely see most people not liking are the ones made by Jim Flynn and especially Bob Evans, just because of how increadibly unreasonably cryptic they are, but I still highly recommend playing them in a group and trying to figure them out with other people, not on your own, because they still have a lot of creative stuff that I think fans of Doom should experience... just know what you're getting into and that Evans' maps take up to 2 hours to complete, if you're going in blind.

[Zolgia108]

3 hours ago, SilverMiner said:

Sunlust (boring soulless slaughterfests)

Ancient Aliens (colors make eyes and head hurt, also it's a common slaughterfest wad)

Eviternity (everything is good but slaughterfest parts in round arenas)

Valiant (very high monster count makes me feel it was meant to be a slaughterfest. It's balanced but boring)

Sigil (Overhyped by authority of the Romero, it caused source port devs to implement support specially for fifth episode despite the fact it runs vanilla as third epis lol)

i respect every opinion but i think you should play some other wads in order to understand what a slaughterfest is (Sunder MAY be an example). Sunlust is more like an aestetically beautiful wad with strategic gameplay. Skillsaw wads are on the easy side and fun to play, no slaughter anywhere, same goes for Eviternity. I may agree on Valiant being slightly boring in episode 4, but it's a masterpiece. Slaughter is something else. 

[Yugiboy85]

3 hours ago, SilverMiner said:

Valiant (very high monster count makes me feel it was meant to be a slaughterfest. It's balanced but boring)

 

 

The average monster count in valiant for UV with secret maps excluded  (so only maps 1 to 30) is 239. With secret maps included, it's like 279. I don't really see how this qualifies as "very high monster count". That's pretty average imo

 

The only map that qualifies as a slaughtermap really is maybe map 31 with, yes, a 1599 monster count. That is indeed quite high but then again, it's a secret map. 

The second map with the highest monster count in the wad is map 27 BUT, about half of them (if not more) are in the secret "final countdown area".

 

There are other maps with a rather high monster count (Above 300), but alot of them are placed at the end of the episodes they are in so imo, there's nothing wrong with that. 

 

Again, I see nothing really that qualifies as "very high monster count" here. 

 

[Hitboi]

3 hours ago, SilverMiner said:

Sunlust (boring soulless slaughterfests)

I just replayed Sunlust with Russian Overkill and i have +100 reasons to tell you how Sunlust is amazing.

If you want to argue with me, Then get brutally telefragged by a fucking Arch-Vile.

[DSC]

I second BTSX E1. Its the exact same thing over and over and over and over again...

Valiant IMO is also extremely repetitive visuals-wise, but at least the different episodes mix things up a little bit, so I won't say the wad is overrated at all.

 

[Dranyan]

On 9/20/2020 at 9:18 PM, HitBoi64 said:

I just replayed Sunlust with Russian Overkill and i have +100 reasons to tell you how Sunlust is amazing.

If you want to argue with me, Then get brutally telefragged by a fucking Arch-Vile.

I also do think Sunlust is amazing and not overrated.

Edited September 23, 2020 by Dranyan

[Demion]

I loved Valiant when i played it, but when i watched Decino's run of this wad on Youtube, i realized many of the design flaws it has, which i didn't realize before, maybe because of all the praise around the set of levels, that kinda skewed my opinion. However, I still believe that it is one of the best megawads I've played, but i certainly don't believe it's THE perfect megawad some folks in the community say it is.

[DSC]

6 minutes ago, Demion said:

I loved Valiant when i played it, but when i watched Decino's run of this wad on Youtube, i realized many of the design flaws it has, which i didn't realize before, maybe because of all the praise around the set of levels, that kinda skewed my opinion. However, I still believe that it is one of the best megawads I've played, but i certainly don't believe it's THE perfect megawad some folks in the community say it is.

Its the lack of the possibility of backtracking in certain levels, isn't it?

[Demion]

2 minutes ago, DSC said:

Its the lack of the possibility of backtracking in certain levels, isn't it?

Yes, at the end of some levels, and at the beginning, with some secrets that become unreachable. It's not so bad, but it could've been done better.

[Deadwing]

Hmm BTSX1 wasn't also one of my favorites, the levels felt similar to each other after you reach the latter halg and the monster placement was too straightfoward for my tastes. From the few maps I've played from 2, I enjoyed it a lot more, and my only "criticism" is that some of the maps were too long.

 

Valiant has really good maps, but the only themes I truly enjoyed was the first and last episode. It was a bit too frenetic for my tastes too sometimes, so I would probably enjoy it more on HMP.

 

AA was better for me, although I wasn't a fan of the early maps gameplay style (bar 1 and 2, I guess) and the pyramid one. But somehow the whole package felt easier than Valiant.

 

Eviternity for me was able to reach the sweetspot regarding themes, gameplay style and difficult. It is easier than Skillsaw stuff, thematically all episodes were awesome as also the new enemies.

 

Even with some of the "critics", I find the new stuff much better than any of the classics though, being much more playable for my tastes regarding gameplay and layouts, and the visuals, new textures and soundtrack make all of them at least worth checking out. It's all at least 4 stars material for me, which I wouldn't call overrated.

[Poncho1]

I always thought MM2 was inferior to its predecessor. I dunno, the new textures just felt odd to me, and the later maps are enormous and dull.

 

HR, I think, is only really famous because of its immense difficulty at the time. The first 10-ish maps are fine, but by the time you get to Maps 13 and 14, it just becomes a mix of boredom and dumb difficulty (very weird feeling). The maps are also huge and mostly flat. Serious Sam can pull that off, but Doom... yeah, not so much.

 

BTSX Ep. 2 (in both its old and current forms) is another one I wasn't overly impressed by. Sure, there is indeed more variety in the aesthetics than Ep. 1, and there's definitely been a load of input and talent injected into the project, but I felt that most of the maps just went on and on.

 

This next one isn't so much overrated, just I rate it less than his other work: Valiant. Skillsaw has made (or contributed to) some of the greatest megawads IMO: Vanguard is my favourite WAD ever, AA is fantastic, etc.. Valiant has its fair share of amazing levels, but the Cave and Hell episodes seemed to drag and weren't as interesting as the other episodes. Still fun though.

 

Of course, these opinions are purely personal and subjective, which is what makes these threads interesting to read.

[JXC]

9 hours ago, WH-Wilou84 said:

That's a common complaint about BtSX E1.

It's a cohesive set on both gameplay and visual aspects, which is a strong point in my eyes, but the downside is indeed that some people could get tired of it.
Granted, every map is a techbase of some sorts, but I do think there's enough variation between them. A lot of care has been put on visual polish and texture alignement to give the set a standardized and harmonious look, but the different authors nonetheless found ways to express their own styles. You could easily distinguish Iori's angled borders in "Mix Up The Satellite" (map 06) from Mechadon's massive architecture (map 15) or from skillsaw's clean and modern texture usage in "Optical Hopscotch", for instance. Give me any screenshot from BtSX E1 and I could instantly tell you which map it is from :)

You should try E2, surely you'll enjoy it more.

The circuit-like textures and mazes in Mechadon gave me System Shock vibes

[danidf96]

I'm sorry to say but TNT Evilution is just dull and boring in my opinion. The only thing i like is some enviroments here and there but overall is by far the worst "ID approved" IWAD although Doom 2 come close.

[TheMagicMushroomMan]

After replaying BTSX E1, I don't enjoy it much at all anymore. It has great map design but as others stated, the theme gets repetitive. E2 doesn't do much to remedy the problem besides moving to an outdoor locale, but the level design is worse than E1 IMO. Sunlust feels soulless to me, because the architecture and map design doesn't feel or look organic. It just looks like a bunch of complex geometry for the sake of complexity, never building any real atmosphere or intrigue. I also like Vanguard more than Valiant, due to the fact that most of Valiant's music irritates me. Never really cared for Plutonia, the gameplay style feels restrictive, forced, and unnatural. The jungle theme also feels repetitive.

[baja blast rd.]

4 hours ago, Demion said:

I loved Valiant when i played it, but when i watched Decino's run of this wad on Youtube, i realized many of the design flaws it has, which i didn't realize before, maybe because of all the praise around the set of levels, that kinda skewed my opinion. However, I still believe that it is one of the best megawads I've played, but i certainly don't believe it's THE perfect megawad some folks in the community say it is.

 

4 hours ago, Demion said:

Yes, at the end of some levels, and at the beginning, with some secrets that become unreachable. It's not so bad, but it could've been done better.

You were more busy experiencing the wad instead of looking at its faults from an abstract, detached perspective. 

 

While it is a commonly appreciated modern trope to allow the player to revisit points of no return and track down everything they have missed, I don't think it's a big flaw to abstain from that. Depending on the map, that might even be intended for dramatic emphasis: sort of a 'no way back now' point in your journey. There's a different but related thing going on with one-shot secrets. 

Also while Decino is pretty unusual and valuable among Let's Players due to not embracing incompetence and salt, he's not a worldbeater as a player despite how he presents himself (he is good, but there are numerous distinct tiers of playing skill above him) and he's not an authority figure on knowing wads. He's just one dude with his own preferences and peeves like everyone else. So if you loved it, don't let that be overwritten by perceived authority.

[MattFright]

2 minutes ago, ‹rd› said:

While it is a commonly appreciated modern trope to allow the player to revisit points of no return and track down everything they have missed, I don't think it's a big flaw to abstain from that.

 

I'm sure that can be done to the same effect you mentioned without blocking you from obscure enemies or secrets though, no?

[Zolgia108]

12 minutes ago, ‹rd› said:

 

You were more busy experiencing the wad instead of looking at its faults from an abstract, detached perspective. 

 

While it is a commonly appreciated modern trope to allow the player to revisit points of no return and track down everything they have missed, I don't think it's a big flaw to abstain from that. Depending on the map, that might even be intended for dramatic emphasis: sort of a 'no way back now' point in your journey. There's a different but related thing going on with one-shot secrets. 

Also while Decino is pretty unusual and valuable among Let's Players due to not embracing incompetence and salt, he's not a worldbeater as a player despite how he presents himself (he is good, but there are numerous distinct tiers of playing skill above him) and he's not an authority figure on knowing wads. He's just one dude with his own preferences and peeves like everyone else. So if you loved it, don't let that be overwritten by perceived authority.

i second this The backtrack thing is something that i don't like but i "accept" when i map. For example my first map in Happy had a secret in the first area, but to go on you had to take a "there's no way back" teleport, this enraged my brother who is a perfectionist so i decided to leave the item there removing the secret itself. This is just an example. I understand it but it shouldn't be mandatory, i do that just to throw a bone to completionists :)

[Demion]

17 minutes ago, ‹rd› said:

You were more busy experiencing the wad instead of looking at its faults from an abstract, detached perspective. 

I agree with you.

18 minutes ago, ‹rd› said:

While it is a commonly appreciated modern trope to allow the player to revisit points of no return and track down everything they have missed, I don't think it's a big flaw to abstain from that. Depending on the map, that might even be intended for dramatic emphasis: sort of a 'no way back now' point in your journey. There's a different but related thing going on with one-shot secrets. 

Totally, I don't see it as a big flaw now that you said it. What I do when I can't backtrack is idclipping, and that's ok, it's not a big deal. Or maybe i can play the map again. The mapper can't consider everyone's expectations, and that's ok. So, you're right.

24 minutes ago, ‹rd› said:

Also while Decino is pretty unusual and valuable among Let's Players due to not embracing incompetence and salt, he's not a worldbeater as a player despite how he presents himself (he is good, but there are numerous distinct tiers of playing skill above him) and he's not an authority figure on knowing wads. He's just one dude with his own preferences and peeves like everyone else. So if you loved it, don't let that be overwritten by perceived authority.

True. I wasn't trying to give an opinion on Decino, I just mentioned him as it was because of his run that I realize about the impossibility of backtracking in certain maps. Decino's expectations were to finish the map 100%, blind run. It didn't happen because of this, so he saw it as a flaw. Now we can agree it might not be a flaw.

[Toilet_Wine_Connoisseur]

Anything IWAD related, E1 of Ultimate DooM is the most overrated.

 

Anything Slaughtermap. They are boring, uncreative, repetitive one note map styles and the more Megawads lean into that kind of design philosophy (or lack there of) the less interested I am in them. 

[baja blast rd.]

Also wanted to add that a comparable 'underrated' thread would be much better to have. Or since we've had that before, maybe break new ground with 'What middlingly popular megawads do you think are appropriately rated?' 

 

This one has evolved how you'd expect: complaints about wads largely released for free, little criticism the authors haven't heard elsewhere. It's concentrated bad vibes at some of the community's more productive, esteemed creators. Before anyone brings up #NotAllPosts, well true, but a bunch of them are, which is enough. 

[Misty]

Plutonia, Scythe and Alien Vendetta as the most overrated megawads... Mostly because their tropes used and abused way too much by other mappers, including myself. Also you can always see those mentioned in recommendation lists like they are holy grail.

 

Also, I can see tendency that people got tired of hard sets, unfairness, tired of getting their asses hit like they are criminals and even somewhat getting demotivated by gameplay and most of custom content we pour through the days. Yeah, sometimes people just want feel like they are in control and just shoot demons and feel good about it.

[AD_79]

I would argue that slaughtermaps are often immensely creative in their construction. Does that translate into me enjoying them? Usually no, outside of rare cases (BTSX E2M31 will forever be one of my favourites in the genre). I'd prefer to avoid having this thread turn into yet another "slaughtermaps are bad, no slaughtermaps are good" thing though.

 

Also yeah, this thread is more or less useless I'd say. Instead of using one's time to say "I don't like thing", why not bring some positive attention to stuff that could use it? rd's post is pretty spot on with how I feel about this.

[Poncho1]

10 minutes ago, Misty said:

Plutonia, Scythe and Alien Vendetta as the most overrated megawads... Mostly because their tropes used and abused way too much by other mappers, including myself. Also you can always see those mentioned in recommendation lists like they are holy grail.

So the sets THEMSELVES are overrated because of subsequent WADs? I'm not sure how that makes them overrated.

 

It'd be a bit like me saying, "Airplane! is an overrated movie, because without it we wouldn't have had movies like Shriek If You Know What I Did Last Friday the 13th". Just seems like a silly argument to me.