Do Doomers like or hate custom monsters in vanilla and boom wads?

[JXC]

I hear divided opinions on the custom monsters in Eviternity. Some think that they are great additions, and others think they suck and are annoying. I think we can all agree that the Astral Cacodemon should be called the Asshole Cacodemon because of how fast and overpowered he is. What makes a Dehacked monster good or bad? How can they enhance gameplay? My favorite one is the Soul Droid from Doom Zero before his behavior got changed from a flying SS Nazi to a Cacodemon fireball turret. I also enjoyed supershotgunning the Antaresians (Ophidian knockoffs) in Struggle. 

[printz]

I'm all for custom content. The world doesn't need to be stale with the same species over and over.

[Deadwing]

Astral Cacodemon is awesome :D

 

Custom Monsters are pretty cool, but they need to add something new and cool for the table.

[seed]

7 minutes ago, printz said:

I'm all for custom content. The world doesn't need to be stale with the same species over and over.

 

[TheNoob_Gamer]

Custom enemies only become a problem when the author doesn't know how to design them (Scythe 2) or place them in their levels. This pretty much applies to every modding format.

 

Also, you haven't seen Eviternity beta's Astral Caco.

Edited September 22, 2020 by TheNoob_Gamer : offensive comments removed

[Rapp0ng]

I don't hate them but I prefer vanilla. I like to play custom maps which feel like bonus levels for original Doom 1/2.

 

I would prefer to play a total conversion mod where everything is changed rather than most of it being similar but with a different coloured imp appearing which fires out rockets or something.

 

Same goes for custom guns and stuff, rather have it all changed than just one or two guns changed. 

[koren]

I love the scythe 2 afrit.

[Roofi]

I think it depends on how you use the monsters as well as their characteristics as it has been said. 

 

For my part, I don't have a problem with that. On the contrary, I think it touches a small variety in the gameplay. I tend to think that too few people think about making static enemies such as turrets. I liked the turrets in Mapgame for example, Doom doesn't have any static enemies in its bestiary that I know of.

 

[NuMetalManiak]

Having played so many sets with custom monsters, I'm in the hate category. From what I played, a good majority are just mancubus fireball spread monsters which have been losing their originality. Others are just buffed/nerfed versions of vanilla enemies which only slightly change the dynamic but not in a game-changing way.

 

Afrit is overused in many megawads, but its actual worst use was in Scythe 2 itself, as its health was far too high. Other sets that use the afrit tone the health down to be a bit better.

Ones I do like are most of Eviternity's monsters, Valiant's arachnorb, and the rocket trooper from Obituary (a classic custom monster in my opinion). There's also this unfinished TC that has a silly yet awesome walking barrel monster among other things.

[P41R47]

dehacked is the best thing that happened to vanilla doom. then we have boom/mbf extended features to play along for better possibilities.

 

So yeah, REKKR is the best example of what can be do when one wants to make it right.

[TheNoob_Gamer]

 

The biggest problem with the Afrit is too tanky, the attack patterns encourage cover most of the time, and it got too overused in certain parts.

[esselfortium]

New monsters are fun, using them well is an interesting but worthwhile challenge. A lot of custom monsters are interesting on their own but are too complicated compared to the standard set, which counterintuitively ends up making them a lot less versatile in actual usage.

 

The Shadow and the Suicide Zombie are two I'd point to that fill simple and useful niches extremely effectively. The enhanced monsters in Ancient Aliens are also pretty fun, I like the extra bit of unpredictability that comes from arachnotrons sometimes splitting off into aracnorbs on death.

 

edit: Oops, I think I meant to say Valiant, not Ancient Aliens!

Edited September 22, 2020 by esselfortium

[MFG38]

I mostly don't mind custom monsters, but there is a way to do them wrong. And that's when I do mind them.

[Sir Hattington]

custom monsters are rad

[Phobus]

I suppose the biggest argument against putting custom DeHackEd work in your vanilla and Boom-compat map sets is that a lot of people are playing with their preferred game play mods, which may overwrite what you've done, or not play nicely with it.

 

From my own perspective, custom stuff is cool, but it's way more likely to feel unbalanced or unintuitive than the base game, which makes me much more ready to give up on a map set containing it.

[BoxY]

I don't mind a few custom monsters if they're well balanced and used strategically (Eviternity, AAliens, Valiant and Magnolia all did it right imo), but I'm not into wads that overhaul too much of the enemy roster because it means I have to re-learn the attack patterns, health pools, timings, strategies etc. from scratch which can take forever. A big part of why I enjoy playing Doom is that its stock balance is a permanent and stable system where everything consistently behaves the way you expect it to, and over-modding it throws that out of the window.

[Doomenator]

Any custom monsters in vanilla and boom wads is welcome as long as it doesn't interfere compatibility with other gameplay or bestiaries mods.

[esselfortium]

I'm amused by the responses saying that custom monsters are cool as long as you can ignore them and overwrite them with your own different custom monsters.

[WH-Wilou84]

As long as custom monsters are consistent with Doom and/or the atmosphere and theme you're trying to create in the wad, I'm all for it !
Provided they're not completely imbalanced, they could fill some interesting niches in terms of gameplay and be included in cool battle scenarios.

 

10 minutes ago, JXC said:

overpowered

I keep seeing that word, most notably as regards to Scythe II's monsters or Eviternity's Astral Cacodemon indeed.

Doom Eternal's Marauder has also been deemed overpowered by many people at first, before strategies to defeat him were found. Players just needed some time to adjust to this new enemy and to his particular gameplay style. Experts can kill a Marauder in no time nowadays, heh.

I think it's the same for new monsters in Doom wads (in "serious" projects at least).
Just because you get killed by them during the first couple of encounters doesn't make them overpowered, maybe you just need to git gud learn their attack patterns and how to react accordingly. It's basically what we've all had to learn with the new Doom II monsters when we were kids - maybe the Arch-Vile or Revenant seemed OP during Doom II's early days... :)


 

[Zolgia108]

i really love custom monsters when the wad isn't Sunlust. With this i mean that in a wad like that custom monsters would ruin everything, in a normal wad like Eviternity they are very well welcome, same goes for Valiant and Ancient Aliens for example, they fit in perfectly. I hate the marines in Scythe 2, Afrits have too much hp in my opinion, but i love that wad, it is actually my old favourite. At least they tried experimenting with custom stuff. Until now i always used at least a couple of custom monsters in my maps :)

[Rapp0ng]

59 minutes ago, WH-Wilou84 said:

Doom Eternal's Marauder has also been deemed overpowered by many people at first, before strategies to defeat him were found. Players just needed some time to adjust to this new enemy and to his particular gameplay style. Experts can kill a Marauder in no time nowadays, heh.

That's a very good point. I suppose with custom wads there is a bit of 'its not official doom so I am not keen on it'.

 

I would love if new enemies looked and acted completely different rather than a reskinned imp or cacodemon. It would be visually distinguishable and would feel more suited to be in the game rather than something that just has its stats changed.

[antares031]

I'm a fan of well-designed custom monsters. Megawads like Valiant and Ancient Aliens did a great job on designing monsters of their own. If custom monsters are designed really good, they can certainly give unique experiences, giving some memorable moments, boosting the quality of the custom wads' gameplay even further. Surely combat scenarios are mostly made with the level design, such as monster placements and layout of the arena. But custom monsters can provide more options and possibilities, that the pure level design couldn't offer. Astral Cacodemon could be one of examples, having "quick aerial-dash" movement, which vanilla doom monsters didn't have.

 

The answer to "How to make cool custom monsters, which has interesting new elements, but not overpowered?" is still quite difficult to figure out. While one person might think about the new monster "Wow, this new monster gives me more challenging moments. Great!", other person might think about the same one "That stupid monster just gave me tons of damage in a single second. This is unfair and not fun." Also, while dehacked is capable of editing the properties and behaviors of monsters, it's still limited to the options of vanilla doom. You can definitely modify the existing projectiles, but it's highly-unlikely to make a whole new projectile attack, unless you're using MBF dehacked. It is up to the dehacked designer's creativity to make good custom monsters with cool new features.

 

But then again, perhaps the answer to "making better monsters" is not that complicated. I've seen that lots of people appreciated the reduced HP of lost souls in Struggle and Eviternity. Just remember to make a custom monster that you find amusing and more enjoyable to deal with. And remember to listen to people's feedback comments about the new actors you designed.

[JXC]

9 minutes ago, antares031 said:

You can definitely modify the existing projectiles, but it's highly-unlikely to make a whole new projectile attack, unless you're using MBF dehacked.

You can make new projectiles in MBF format? I tried spawning monsters as projectiles, and it failed.

[antares031]

46 minutes ago, JXC said:

You can make new projectiles in MBF format? I tried spawning monsters as projectiles, and it failed.

 

It is indeed spawning custom monsters, that "act" like projectiles. MBF doesn't support creating new code pointers.

 

EDIT: Here's a quick demonstration. complevel 11; cubevile.zip

Edited September 22, 2020 by antares031

[MattFright]

I feel like there are many wads that do a phenomenal job at making dehacked enemies that feel right at place with vanilla monsters (and which i wish would've been put up on realm667 so we'd have less of the same 10 or so boring/unbalanced custom monsters in wads), the best example that comes to mind is Lunatic (which is also criminally underrated), which has two former human variants that are just as fragile as the vanilla ones, but require a completely different approach from the player since they shoot projectiles rather than hitscan. These are the types of custom monsters that i absolutely love to see in any wad.

[holaareola]

As many have said, I like them if they're done well and have the encounters properly designed around them rather than just being randomly splattered onto the map.

 

What I really don't like is simple recolours with stat tweaks. For the vast majority of cases, the original roster is balanced enough that this is novelty for novelty's sake. And low quality novelty at that, exuding a strong whiff of the old Doom shovelware CDs. For bonus negative points, each additional recolour multiplies the spirit of the bargain bin exponentially.

 

Aaaaaaat the same time, if something has been changed from the defaults, I think it should look at least a little different and crap as it is, a recolour is better than nothing.

 

And not all recolours are created equal after all. Look at this fantastic fella by Captain Toenail:

 

[MattFright]

2 minutes ago, holaareola said:

And not all recolours are created equal after all. Look at this fantastic fella by Captain Toenail:

 

 

Supercharge (and its dehacked counterpart, mini-charged) has some amazing recolors/reskins, too

[danidf96]

Custom monsters, weapons, sprites whatever man keep bringing me that shit.

[whirledtsar]

When theyre well-designed, they add some variety & uniqueness to the wad. When theyre not, theyre usually either too OP or just redundant. Doom 2 already has a pretty damn good monster lineup, so a lot of custom monsters end up being just a version of a regular monster with unnecessarily more health and dangerous attacks. The Astral Cacodemon and brown pinky from Eviternity are perfect examples of this. Whereas the plasma soldier is a good addition IMO because he fits a different role than the rest of the monsters and feels like a normal, fair enemy.

[GarrettChan]

Custom sprites but the same stuff:

Subjectively, I don't really like them because it screws up my muscle memories. However I know sometimes it's needed to fit the theme, so I wouldn't say it's bad.

 

Custom monsters:

I'm OK with them. However, it shouldn't be ridiculous like the ones in Scythe 2. Funny enough, Resurgence used the exact same custom monsters but they got tuned down to a reasonable level, so I rated Resurgence way higher than Scythe 2.