Jump to content
Search In
  • More options...
Find results that contain...
Find results in...
TheMagicMushroomMan

Would you be interested in a Remastered Ultimate Doom?

Recommended Posts

I'm still learning how to use an editor, I was wondering if you guys would be interested in a touched-up version of Ultimate Doom. No new rooms or encounters or anything, just the original maps with touched up lighting and decorations, maybe some new music...shit like that. Would anyone want this? Am I allowed to just make edits if original Doom maps here and share them? I'm not going to be uploading it to the id archive or anything.

Share this post


Link to post
5 minutes ago, AinuTheTaken said:

New maps > remasters. It's a law of mapmaking.

Yeah, I'm aware. That doesn't mean there isn't a place for remasters. Sgt. Mark's remasters of the original maps that he made for Brutal Doom are great. Especially the remastered Plutonia maps.

Share this post


Link to post

I am pretty sure most places would frown on distribution of modified original maps as it would definitely run afoul of copyright law. 

Share this post


Link to post
2 minutes ago, Murdoch said:

I am pretty sure most places would frown on distribution of modified original maps as it would definitely run afoul of copyright law. 

That's what I'm too stupid to understand. If that's the case, how is it that the Brutal Doom remasters are allowed? I've seen other edited Doom maps, so I don't fully understand. If someone could explain, it would be appreciated. If the maps were altered, would it be legal, like when modified textures are used in wads?

Share this post


Link to post
31 minutes ago, TheMagicMushroomMan said:

That's what I'm too stupid to understand. If that's the case, how is it that the Brutal Doom remasters are allowed? I've seen other edited Doom maps, so I don't fully understand. If someone could explain, it would be appreciated. If the maps were altered, would it be legal, like when modified textures are used in wads?

 

Technically redistributed modified or unmodified original game resources is illegal and frowned upon. Some people do get away with it though. The powers that be cannot be everywhere at once after all, or perhaps some are not as strict to the letter of the law for whatever reason.

Share this post


Link to post
Just now, Murdoch said:

 

Technically redistributed modified or unmodified original game resources is illegal and frowned upon. Some people do get away with it though. The powers that be cannot be everywhere at once after all.

What I'm asking, is why are wads with vanilla textures (of which there are thousands) considered acceptable if they are technically illegal? Are there small modifications to the textures, therefore legalizing them?

Share this post


Link to post

I always found the line to be blurry and kind of nonsensical, people edit and share iwad resources that are slightly modified all the time, from sprites to sounds to music. There are tens of thousands of modded versions of iwad maps out there. The only real restriction is not being able to upload it to idgames, which is the main wad repository of course, so it makes sense that they have more strict provisions. It certainly won’t result in any trouble. It’s been going on en masse for donkey’s years at this stage. The makers of Dwango5 Map01 still walk as free men to this day :-)

Share this post


Link to post
7 minutes ago, Doomkid said:

I always found the line to be blurry and kind of nonsensical, people edit and share iwad resources that are slightly modified all the time, from sprites to sounds to music. There are tens of thousands of modded versions of iwad maps out there. The only real restriction is not being able to upload it to idgames, which is the main wad repository of course, so it makes sense that they have more strict provisions. It certainly won’t result in any trouble. It’s been going on en masse for donkey’s years at this stage. The makers of Dwango5 Map01 still walk as free men to this day :-)

Thanks, I figured the only restriction would be uploading to the archive. I just want to get a grip on detailing and lighting, and if it comes out good, share the results here. I basically just want to pretty up the iwad maps while staying faithful to their designs. Appreciate the info!

Share this post


Link to post
2 hours ago, TheMagicMushroomMan said:

I was wondering if you guys would be interested in a touched-up version of Ultimate Doom. No new rooms or encounters or anything, just the original maps with touched up lighting and decorations, maybe some new music...shit like that. Would anyone want this?

 

To be honest, sounds not interesting. I don't think adding some decorations and colored lighting to the existing map without editing the geometry is good idea. People in general prefer projects like The Doom Tribute and Knee-Deep in ZDoom. But both mentioned projects are much more than "a slightly modified IWAD maps". 

Share this post


Link to post
9 minutes ago, Deⓧiaz said:

 

To be honest, sounds not interesting. I don't think adding some decorations and colored lighting to the existing map without editing the geometry is good idea. People in general prefer projects like The Doom Tribute and Knee-Deep in ZDoom. But both mentioned projects are much more than "a slightly modified IWAD maps". 

Alright, I guess it's a no-go. Knee Deep in ZDoom, to me, doesn't feel anything like OG Doom after map01. Map03 was such a confusing clusterfuck I gave up on it. People play OG Doom all the time, I'd like to make it all pretty. I'll try making the maps from scratch, because apparently this is an issue, even though people steal resources from other games for their wads. I've seen resources from Doom, Doom 2, Doom 3, Duke Nukem, Blood, Shadow Warrior, Blake Stone, Wolfenstein, Quake, Quake 2, and about a thousand other games. But apparently modifying Doom maps is immoral.

 

This anger isn't directed at you, I appreciate your feedback. But the rules here seem hypocritical. Again, none of this is directed at you, I appreciate your honesty.

 

This site needs a sticky that clearly lays out what is allowed when making a wad/mod.

Share this post


Link to post

This is in the murky parts of the copyright law for sure!

 

Technically, you should be fine so long as you add sufficient creative changes and you don’t sell it (possibly usurping the market). 

 

I think, from memory, there are 4* main factors to copyright in the US:

 

1. How much of the original is used?

2. Has the person made enough changes to make it a new copyrightable work?

3. Does it usurp the market (does it mean people don’t need to buy the original anymore)?

4. Did the person have knowledge and access to the original?

 

*Note: I could be wrong and there might be others - I don’t live in the US

 

The big problem with copyright though is a lot of it is discretionary / open to interpretation so there is no set line of what is and what isn’t copyright infringement.

Edited by DooM Bear

Share this post


Link to post
6 minutes ago, DooM Bear said:

This is in the murky parts of the copyright law for sure!

 

Technically, you should be fine so long as you add sufficient creative changes and you don’t sell it (possibly usurping the market). 

 

I think, from memory, there are 4* main factors to copyright in the US:

 

1. How much of the original is used?

2. Has the person made enough changes to make it a derivative work?

3. Does it usurp the market (does it mean people don’t need to buy the original anymore)?

4. Did the person have knowledge and access to the original?

 

*Note: I could be wrong and there might be others - I don’t live in the US

 

The big problem with copyright though is a lot of it is discretionary / open to interpretation so there is no set line of what is and what isn’t copyright infringement.

Thanks, I have no idea what to do at this point. I have no intention of selling it it or even uploading it to the archive, I just wanted to share it here and get some feedback.

Share this post


Link to post
16 minutes ago, TheMagicMushroomMan said:

Thanks, I have no what to do at this point. I have no intention of selling it it or even uploading it to the archive, I just wanted to share it here and get some feedback.

 

Yeah it’s a tough call!

 

Your best bet, and note this is not legal advice, would be to build all the levels from scratch (I.e. don’t edit the originals but build the whole level yourself) adding all the changes you want along the way :-D 

 

That way it becomes “your mapset inspired by E1” rather than a “modified version of E1” :-D

 

I know it sounds like a loooot of work and there is always the possibility the admins here still won’t want to take the chance in hosting it (which is completely understandable) but worst case, you will massively improve your mapping skills and can say that you created your own E1 from scratch both of which are pretty awesome achievements in themselves :-D

 

I believe it was @Dragonfly who recently said something to the effect of “If you enjoy what you’re doing, it’s never time wasted” :-)

Share this post


Link to post
13 minutes ago, Sergeant_Mark_IV said:

About the legal problems of doing it, there is nothing stopping you from doing this. You just won't be allowed to upload it to idgames. Mr Chris used literally all Doom maps from all Doom games to make his popular Maps of Chaos, and as far as I know, Bethesda never tried to throw him in jail for it, despite the fact that it allows you to play literally every doom map from every classic doom game using FreeDoom.


The real question is... should you work on it?
See... in 2015 I started working on a new feature for Brutal Doom called "The Map Enhancement System". Same idea as yours, improving Doom maps by adding new stuff to them. But I wanted to get around the limitation of modifying Doom maps. So how I did it? I wrote about 30,000 lines of DECORATE code to make a system that could read what map has been loaded. 
Yes, I opened every Doom map from the classic games and checked the position of every object, so I could find the X and Y world coordinates of them, feed them into the code, and manually add every new detail through DECORATE code. Spawning them in every specific point of the map. Techbase levels have shinny new textures, the cities of Doom 2 have Terminator-like post-apocalyptic debris, the jungles of Plutonia looks like an actual jungle, and so on.
 
Here is a picture of what it looks like:

DECwQ4HW0AAkaRF.jpg:large

How long it took? 3 fucking years.
3 years of my life wasted into a stupid obsession developing an useless feature. Time I regret wasting. Time I should had spent with my family and friends, or working on my own stuff, my own maps, my own games. Before this I had this other stupid idea of a project called "Recurring Nightmares" that I probably spent another year on it.
The system also works with a switch in the options menu, you can turn it off and just play normal Vanilla levels. To my surprise, half of the people who record playthroughs of Brutal Doom disables this feature. Another highlight of how useless it was.

Also there is a golden rule: A polished turd is still a turd. I learned the hard way that no amount of new lights, textures, and cluttering decorations will improve maps like The Chasm or Unruly Evil. There is just no point in trying to save them. They can't be saved.
So  here is my advice: Don't do it. Go make your own stuff. Don't waste a portion of your life working on something this irrelevant. Whatever map you make, no mater how bad it turns out, is still a better idea than trying to polish the game's original maps. At least you can improve your mapping skills through trial and error. But you won't learn anything trying to copy somebody else's work.

Thank you so much for such a detailed reply. You've likely convinced me that I shouldn't do this. I do think it would be better to learn the hard way and make maps from scratch. I have ideas that would go to waste if I just spent my time improving maps from 1993. As dumb as it sounds, I never stopped to think about what a waste of time and imagination it would be.

 

The fact that you wrote 30,000 DECORATE lines is fucking insane, and if it makes you feel any better, I greatly enjoyed your improved maps, especially in Plutonia. You really made it feel like a jungle, I was so impressed. I mentioned it in one of my posts above as one of my inspirations for wanting to do this. But since you are the one who improved the maps, I'll take your advice and trash this idea.

 

Thank you for taking the time to give me your view on things, I really appreciate it.

Share this post


Link to post

Legal murkiness aside, this sounds incredibly uninteresting.

It would be better for you, as someone learning to make maps, and for the people who will be playtesting it if and when you choose to release it, to instead study the original maps, work out what makes them tick, and try to make your own maps inspired by them. This was the impetus behind "Doom The Way id Did", a very nice megawad that tried to replicate not only the style of the game, but the style of individual level designers. You're going to learn a lot more, and what you make is going to be more interesting to play.

Share this post


Link to post

Unless you want to hear people say, "Meh the original is better" for the rest of your life, I'd avoid doing so. Doom 1's original maps are iconic and have stood the test of time for close to 30 years. Make your own maps instead.

Share this post


Link to post

Be aware! Modding the holy IWADs is not only forbidden by earthly laws...

The mighty GODS OF DOOM do not allow it, either:

BETHSEDA dared to modify the holy IWADS.
And they were cruelly punished for this sacrilege and from now on have to
suffer eternally under the bondage of Microsoft.

 

Share this post


Link to post

As a lot of people already said, problems on a legal point of view may arise, look at the DOOM 4 Remake mod, a very cool mod that made doom look like it was made in a modern engine, if you're wondering what happened, Zenimax which is Bethesda's parent company forced the author to remove it so if you want to avoid that it's better if you do something like Knee-Deep in ZDoom but at that point people would say that you copied KDiZD's concept or that ''the original is better''.

Buy you do you, if that's a project that you'd like to accomplish go ahead, just remember that it would take some time.

Share this post


Link to post
9 hours ago, Sergeant_Mark_IV said:

3 years of my life wasted into a stupid obsession developing an useless feature. Time I regret wasting. Time I should had spent with my family and friends, or working on my own stuff, my own maps, my own games. Before this I had this other stupid idea of a project called "Recurring Nightmares" that I probably spent another year on it.
The system also works with a switch in the options menu, you can turn it off and just play normal Vanilla levels. To my surprise, half of the people who record playthroughs of Brutal Doom disables this feature. Another highlight of how useless it was.


It's a shame you feel that way, because I think your map enhancement system looks awesome, and genuinely improves the maps that it applies to, especially the Doom 2 city maps. In fact I've found myself wishing that it could be used in vanilla or with other mods.

Share this post


Link to post
5 hours ago, DoomGater said:

Be aware! Modding the holy IWADs is not only forbidden by earthly laws...

The mighty GODS OF DOOM do not allow it, either:

BETHSEDA dared to modify the holy IWADS.
And they were cruelly punished for this sacrilege and from now on have to
suffer eternally under the bondage of Microsoft.

 

Then again, the change they did was bring back stuff that were missing from the BFG Edition, and anything done in that version is before they even took over.

 

Share this post


Link to post

Remaster? No. We have source ports, we don't need it.

Full HD remake? Hell yes.

Share this post


Link to post

I'm interested in something like reimagining of Doom with non-linear gameplay and good monster placement while low foe count and noticeable height variety in levels' geometry.

Share this post


Link to post
3 hours ago, NoXion said:


It's a shame you feel that way, because I think your map enhancement system looks awesome, and genuinely improves the maps that it applies to, especially the Doom 2 city maps. In fact I've found myself wishing that it could be used in vanilla or with other mods.

It makes the screenshots look more interesting. But does it improve the gameplay? Not sure all the random obstacles bring a positive impact on the flow. Especially if they also block projectiles...

 

Amusingly that system would be a lot easier to implement nowadays in ZScript, because you can check the map by looking at its checksum and then do your changes. This is basically how GZDoom's map bugfix system works.

Share this post


Link to post

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×