TAS door boosts

[alps]

I have a question about door boosts, the ones I've seen in most other TASes do it in such a way that there is no 14.5 limit or .000000 position.

and by the tics I can tell its bruteforced.

 

However I could only get it working with .000000 position which has a 14.5 speed cap and from ClumsyDoomer's words, unless there is an instant wallrun the door boost is useless, does anyone have the answer to what exactly I need to bruteforce to in order to achieve the type of door boost that I mentioned above?

[Dimon12321]

From what I remember, 14.5 momentum and wallrunning are barely compatible things.

1. If you stick to a western or a southern wall or door using .000 trick, you will be able to preserve up to 14.5 momentum.

2. If you almost stick to a northern or an eastern wall at a specific angle, you will be able to perform a wallrun after you gain enough speed while running along that wall.

 

So the only condition I can think of, is to run against a northern or a eastern door that matches the blockmap grid. Then you can preserve more than 20 momentum and manage your position to perform a wallrun trick as soon as the door gets enough open.

[alps]

51 minutes ago, Dimon12321 said:

From what I remember, 14.5 momentum and wallrunning are barely compatible things.

1. If you stick to a western or a southern wall or door using .000 trick, you will be able to preserve up to 14.5 momentum.

2. If you almost stick to a northern or an eastern wall at a specific angle, you will be able to perform a wallrun after you gain enough speed while running along that wall.

 

So the only condition I can think of, is to run against a northern or a eastern door that matches the blockmap grid. Then you can preserve more than 20 momentum and manage your position to perform a wallrun trick as soon as the door gets enough open.

could you demonstrate that in a demo?

[alps]

i'm confused, how'd i break 14.5 limit with .000000 pos?e4owip.zip

 

i double checked complevel and everything, its complevel 3 and nothing is wrong

 

edit: hang on, i noticed in looper's b1t1-786 same thing happens on first door. maybe its about the direction i'm facing?

edit 2: no, i've realized its about the x position which i always disregarded, it happens when its somewhere in the -1081's, up there it was -1081.313477, but i also got it to work with -1081.770966

 

give it a shot? @Dimon12321

Edited October 8, 2020 by alps

[Dimon12321]

@alps, I'm afraid, no. I'm doing much hardwork these days.

[tool_afflicted_speedrunner]

18 hours ago, alps said:

hang on, i noticed in looper's b1t1-786 same thing happens on first door. maybe its about the direction i'm facing?

The same thing happens on vitas e1m1xo791. Some time ago i asked about these two instances specifically in the discord. Looper replied:

Looper - "ah yeah that one, it is precise angle that you can bypass the 14.5 momentum limit"
Me - "Is that something that is possible to do in other places? is it known why the game lets you do that?"
Looper - "it works in other places, yes
i dont know the exact details, but in d2m31, when going for the normal exit, you can wallrun in the final room in similar fashion, bypassing the 14.5 limit
but you can't do it for the full length of the wall because the wall from another side of the map will block you somehow
(you are wallrunning south side of the map, the wall blocks you from north side, probably wraps around the universe or something)
I moved the wall once and noticed I could wallrun exactly more/less the based on how I moved the wall in another side of the map"

Vita also said - "It sometimes works if you have very small X/Y momentum.
Like 16 X momentum and -0.0001 Y momentum." This seems to have something to do with your screenshot above, i cant help more than this but i hope this is useful to you somehow. 

With the regular momentum preservation, not doing the 0.000000 trick, this might help but the guide needs a few reads to become comprehensible, for me at least! That part of the guide concludes with "So in conclusion: if you are running into a corner with an infinitesimally small XTAP or YTAP, it is possible to maintain your TAP because the engine’s rounding measures result in a false negative and a subsequent preservation of the player’s TAP." Basically when you get very close to a wall, not 0.000000 close, you can generally do the trick most of the time. Vitas e1m1xo791 demo also shows this, as well as the previous 0.000000 trick achieving X mom > 14.5. On tic 189 they get to X = 2960.000778 and do the trick. If you watch a bunch of tases from Looper and Vita and pay attention to their positions while doing these tricks hopefully you should get the hang of it, it helped me a lot anyway. 

[Looper]

Usually when you go for the "door tricks", you do not place yourself exactly at .0000000 but instead .000, meaning .0009432 for example. Why? Because for some reason, you cannot build up the momentum over the 14.5 (16 speed (double check, wallrun etc)) if you are exactly at .0000000. When you use .0009432 for example, the rounding error rounds it to be exactly 0 or something like that, and the "over 16 speed", that causes a double check won't break the break (fixing it, thus losing the momentum), as far as I know. Anyways, this is just my observation.

 

In short: always use .000 trick, but if that is not possible, use .0000000 trick to have at least 14.5 momentum. I can't remember all the directions, where the .000 tricks works, but at least:

east when the wall is north from the player. (see Doom2 Map03 lift trick)

north when the wall is west from the player. (see Doom2 Map31 door tricks, used at least in nomo in 28 seconds)

 

And the .0000000 trick works towards walls that are south and west from the player. In ADDITION, it can be abused to accumulate speed 90 degrees from south or west, meaning:

if the wall is south from the player, the player can accumulate momentum towards a wall that is east or west from the player (only useful against doors like in Doom E1M1).

if the wall is west from the player, the player can accumulate momentum towards a wall that is north or south from the player.

 

Sometimes the player is going south AND west, for example the exit door in Doom E1M1, meaning if you hug (.0000000) the wall that is south from the player (in this case the exit door), you can accumulate 14.5 momentum south. You can also hug (.00000000) the wall that is west from the player, and accumulate 14.5 momentum west simultaneously).

Edited October 9, 2020 by Looper

[alps]

is there some way to get a nice setup and bruteforce into a position like that looper? i even read your old post in old tas thread but i'm not very good at doing it manually and bruteforce always gives me whole range examined no cigar even when i try with something like

walk 50:-50

strafe 50:-50

turn 127:-127

 

if you want to know how it took shorter than on a normal computer, thats because i did it on a vps which had crazy amounts of resources.

 

anyway, in your demos i barely noticed any kind of setup except in some cases and yes i know .000000 can do that thing, i saw it on b1t1-786 before and have used it myself aswell.

 

i have also seen places whereas in vita's sc02xo594 where he does wallrun and door boost with position 623.999466, it also works with 623.999542 as i got a demo like that once but i had lost like 3 secs trying to get it so it was no use. he set it up by only executing turns as far as i've noticed (probably bruteforced)

 

but yes, i haven't gotten around bruteforcing that yet as i too wanted to use it on all doors and in some cases wallruns to get faster demos, i just was never able to get it

[alps]

9 hours ago, Looper said:

Usually when you go for the "door tricks", you do not place yourself exactly at .0000000 but instead .000, meaning .0009432 for example. Why? Because for some reason, you cannot build up the momentum over the 14.5 (16 speed (double check, wallrun etc)) if you are exactly at .0000000. When you use .0009432 for example, the rounding error rounds it to be exactly 0 or something like that, and the "over 16 speed", that causes a double check won't break the break (fixing it, thus losing the momentum), as far as I know. Anyways, this is just my observation.

 

In short: always use .000 trick, but if that is not possible, use .0000000 trick to have at least 14.5 momentum. I can't remember all the directions, where the .000 tricks works, but at least:

east when the wall is north from the player. (see Doom2 Map03 lift trick)

north when the wall is west from the player. (see Doom2 Map31 door tricks, used at least in nomo in 28 seconds)

 

And the .0000000 trick works towards walls that are south and west from the player. In ADDITION, it can be abused to accumulate speed 90 degrees from south or west, meaning:

if the wall is south from the player, the player can accumulate momentum towards a wall that is east or west from the player (only useful against doors like in Doom E1M1).

if the wall is west from the player, the player can accumulate momentum towards a wall that is north or south from the player.

 

Sometimes the player is going south AND west, for example the exit door in Doom E1M1, meaning if you hug (.0000000) the wall that is south from the player (in this case the exit door), you can accumulate 14.5 momentum south. You can also hug (.00000000) the wall that is west from the player, and accumulate 14.5 momentum west simultaneously).

how do i check direction, xdre won't tell me, also i've tried at first door at kama sutra map09.

 

i tried on both sides with positions like -784.000076,000793 and -815.999374,999100 etc. but never got the door trick. however on right side -816.000000 works.

 

also .0000000? isnt that .000000

[Looper]

50 minutes ago, alps said:

how do i check direction

positive x = east, positive y = north, just like in map editors.

 

50 minutes ago, alps said:

also .0000000? isnt that .000000

I just put some random amount of 0s. More than four 0s for the .0000000000000000000 trick, but only three 0s for the .000 trick :D

[Looper]

On 10/8/2020 at 4:55 PM, alps said:

i'm confused, how'd i break 14.5 limit with .000000 pos?

I'm too lazy to check, but I guess you are the edge of a block map. You can see them in the automap inside a game, when you press "G" for the grid. The squares show the edges of the block maps.

[alps]

On 10/9/2020 at 8:34 PM, Looper said:

I'm too lazy to check, but I guess you are the edge of a block map. You can see them in the automap inside a game, when you press "G" for the grid. The squares show the edges of the block maps.

can you tell me what kind of value i need to insert in bruteforce for it to apply .000 or .999 trick?

in this area in e3m1 for example

.000000 will only work on other side which isn't very optimal since second door is on the right side, i entered 239.999800 and it transformed into something else but idk is there like a convenient way to bruteforce this? i'd be happy if i could simply bruteforce it in every door

[Dimon12321]

The best way to get coordinates like 240.0005678 or 239.9991234 is to find them manually, but it's still a tricky process.

 

Here is my Requiem TAS where I pass first 3 maps: https://www.dsdarchive.com/files/demos/requiem/47412/rq01-03x048.zip

Take a look at my attempt to perform a 32-unit glide without bruteforce just by the end of Map 2! I get a .000 position and slowly reach .00000000 position by spamming MF1.

 

ClumsyDoomer performed that glide in the same way (by the end of Map 2). Here is his Requiem TAS: https://www.dsdarchive.com/files/demos/requiem/44326/rq01-02x027.zip

 

@vita It would be good to have wildcards in XDRE and enter something like X = 240.000??? to specify a fraction that still would be acceptable. Or have 2 checks for the each parameter and declare something like X >= 239.999 and X <= 240.000999 to archive the same result.

 

Looks like .000 or .999 trick isn't that useful.

Edited October 11, 2020 by Dimon12321

[alps]

6 hours ago, Dimon12321 said:

The best way to get coordinates like 240.0005678 or 239.9991234 is to find them manually, but it's still a tricky process.

 

Here is my Requiem TAS where I pass first 3 maps: https://www.dsdarchive.com/files/demos/requiem/47412/rq01-03x048.zip

Take a look at my attempt to perform a 32-unit glide without bruteforce just by the end of Map 2! I get a .000 position and slowly reach .00000000 position by spamming MF1.

 

ClumsyDoomer performed that glide in the same way (by the end of Map 2). Here is his Requiem TAS: https://www.dsdarchive.com/files/demos/requiem/44326/rq01-02x027.zip

 

@vita It would be good to have wildcards in XDRE and enter something like X = 240.000??? to specify a fraction that still would be acceptable. Or have 2 checks for the each parameter and declare something like X >= 239.999 and X <= 240.000999 to archive the same result.

 

Looks like .000 or .999 trick isn't that useful.

problem is with mf1 spam it'd be too slow, i wouldn't reach much momentum before going out anyway.

 

still i also had problems with e1m1 wallrun which also needs bruteforce, can't get 7 sec but meh, its ridiculously difficult, above my level

 

otherwise i dont have such a hard time with things like .000000 trick or instant glides

still have a bit of problems with switch presses however

[alps]

so i got a good position like 2960.000748 and yet no door trick, i also tried many 4 digits but to no avail

really

[Looper]

On 10/11/2020 at 11:12 PM, alps said:

so i got a good position like 2960.000748 and yet no door trick, i also tried many 4 digits but to no avail

really

Position is good but angle is bad.

 

You need an angle where you do not lose your momentum the first time you lose all your momentum. So, the frame where your mometum drops from high Y-mom value to very close to 0, you should use different angle. If no angle is good, then try changing the MF50 or SL50 to 49, which changes the angle even less than changing the actual angle of the player.

 

This trick won't work if you try it from a full stop, or you are simply too close to the door (less than 5 units or so). I wouldn't try the trick with less than 10 speed. The faster the better.

[alps]

On 10/14/2020 at 7:16 AM, Looper said:

Position is good but angle is bad.

 

You need an angle where you do not lose your momentum the first time you lose all your momentum. So, the frame where your mometum drops from high Y-mom value to very close to 0, you should use different angle. If no angle is good, then try changing the MF50 or SL50 to 49, which changes the angle even less than changing the actual angle of the player.

 

This trick won't work if you try it from a full stop, or you are simply too close to the door (less than 5 units or so). I wouldn't try the trick with less than 10 speed. The faster the better.

hey looper, i know a lot of time has passed but in my recent demos you can see i've finally made good use of .000, .999 trick, no longer going for .000000 (unless when i need it somewhere for redirection etc.) all is well now. and i realized that the issue was with my angle, just had to turn left a bit until i didnt lose .999 pos (on the last possible angle) and then go towards door, then it worked.