Did id really add Nightmare difficulty as a joke?

[LeeMroson]

I saw lots of people claiming that id(or John Romero) added Nightmare as a joke difficulty to mock people saying UV is too easy for them, but never saw the actual source that prove Nightmare is a joke difficulty. Was it really added as a joke difficulty? And if so, do anyone have an actual proof for that?

 

I am asking this because I absolutely don't think Nightmare difficulty is unfair, unbeatable, or a joke. It is a great challenge, a hard one, but not at all cheap. You just need to beat the game on UV first, find some secrets and know the path to every key cards, and than set your course properly and kill enemies only you need to kill on NM. I actually think Nightmare difficulty is what makes Doom 1 and especially 2 so great.

[Maes]

It may seem like a reasonable challenge NOW, but think of the average 1994 setup: barely being able to run Doom at framerates above 20 fps, default keyboard controls etc. plus not many people -if any- were into speedrunning.

 

Just like a sporting event whose technique and training has evolved over time, performance levels and records one thought "unattainable" are now considered practically "entry-level" for all newcomers.

[LeeMroson]

1 minute ago, Maes said:

It may seem like a reasonable challenge NOW, but think of the average 1994 setup: barely being able to run Doom at framerates above 20 fps, default keyboard controls etc. plus not many people -if any- were into speedrunning.

 

Just like a sporting event whose technique and training has evolved over time, performance levels and records one thought "unattainable" are now considered practically "entry-level" for all newcomers.

 

Sure I can understand that, but did id Software ever confirm it was indeed added as a joke? The only source I am getting is that Doom fan wiki page claiming it is a joke difficulty without any reliable source.

[SilverMiner]

2 minutes ago, LeeMroson said:

Doom fan wiki page claiming it is a joke difficulty without any reliable source.

That's why it's named FAN WIKI

[MattFright]

13 minutes ago, LeeMroson said:

The only source I am getting is that Doom fan wiki page claiming it is a joke difficulty without any reliable source.

 

It's a good rule of thumb to always use doomwiki.org instead of the fandom one, as it's not only more extensive and informative, but much better fact checked.

[LeeMroson]

1 minute ago, MattFright said:

 

It's a good rule of thumb to always use doomwiki.org instead of the fandom one, as it's not only more extensive and informative, but much better fact checked.

 

I checked there as well, but it also did not have any reliable source for that claim. It instead had that 'citation needed' mark, which shows they don't have a proof as well.

[SteelPH]

1 minute ago, LeeMroson said:

 

I checked there as well, but it also did not have any reliable source for that claim. It instead had that 'citation needed' mark, which shows they don't have a proof as well.

Romero's on Twitter. Could ask him there.

[MattFright]

2 minutes ago, LeeMroson said:

 

I checked there as well, but it also did not have any reliable source for that claim. It instead had that 'citation needed' mark, which shows they don't have a proof as well.

 

Huh, i just looked through some pages i'd expect to see something like that listed but i couldn't find anything.

[LeeMroson]

2 minutes ago, SteelPH said:

Romero's on Twitter. Could ask him there.

Oh, right. Maybe I should ask him on twitter. Thanks. I did not know he has a twitter account.

[Pegleg]

On 10/14/2020 at 9:46 AM, LeeMroson said:

I saw lots of people claiming that id(or John Romero) added Nightmare as a joke difficulty to mock people saying UV is too easy for them, but never saw the actual source that prove Nightmare is a joke difficulty. Was it really added as a joke difficulty? And if so, do anyone have an actual proof for that?

 

I am asking this because I absolutely don't think Nightmare difficulty is unfair, unbeatable, or a joke. It is a great challenge, a hard one, but not at all cheap. You just need to beat the game on UV first, find some secrets and know the path to every key cards, and than set your course properly and kill enemies only you need to kill on NM. I actually think Nightmare difficulty is what makes Doom 1 and especially 2 so great.

 

I highly doubt that John Romero unilaterally added Nightmare difficulty as a joke. If he did make that decision to add that (he has said that everyone who could write code added a little bit here and there as they needed it), then the rest of iD surely approved of it (even if it was after the fact). Nightmare was added in version 1.2 1.666, which wasn't the last version, and it was never removed.

 

I've also heard the story that they added Nightmare as a response to the top gamers who, back in 1994, were complaining that Doom was way too easy. I don't know. I wasn't part of the nascent online community at that time and I certainly wouldn't have been considered in the echelon of whoever were these perhaps apocryphal top gamers. Back in 1994, I was still playing keyboard only, didn't know how to strafe, and managing to struggle my way through KDiTD (v. 1.2) on UV. I was also (and still am) bad at games, in general.

 

However, I agree with Maes. Look back at it from the perspective of the relatively new audience in 1994. You say, "It's easy, just learn where all the things you need are at, and then plan your route carefully." This is easy enough to say now, but a much taller task in 1994, when there wasn't 25+ years of information and experience available at your fingertips, let alone a large community that could be easily reached relatively quickly. Honestly, if you think about it, if they wanted to make the game a more difficult experience, with a minimal amount of work, then they went about it the right way. They added the code to resurrect dead monsters and increased there speed. Then they doubled the ammo you get from pickups (which was already in the code from ITYTD). And then they let it ride. Could they have added a whole new difficulty level, with new monster and ammo distributions? Sure, but that would have required more work on their parts to do, for something that was really only meant to challenge a select few people at the time.

Edited October 16, 2020 by Pegleg : Nightmare was introduced in v. 1.2, not 1.666. No one caught that.

[Doomkid]

To me the whole "Are you sure? This difficulty level isn't even remotely fair" quote is strong evidence suggesting it was, at the very least, a gimmick difficulty. Also, the fact is, other than maybe E1 and some super easy wads, Nightmare is still hard as fuck. At least for me..

[Thermal Lance]

I wouldn't be surprised if it had been added as a middle-finger to people complaining the game was too easy. Back in the days nightmare probably looked unbeatable. 

[DMPhobos]

Nightmare definitively was an afterthought considering the fact that it was added after the original release so there was no balancing for it to make it a 'fair challenge' or anything other than the double ammo, and also the warning message you get when you select it does make it look like it indeed wasn't meant to be taken seriously, considering the id attitude at the time, i can totally see them adding nightmare just to screw with players that complained that it was 'too easy', 

But like some people have mentioned, it might be good to ask Romero about it just to confirm if that was the case or there was another reason about why nightmare was added later

[leodoom85]

Nightmare, as a concept, was taken as a joke except that, in practice, is not a joke. Episode 1 of Doom (for example) with all those hitscanners around is really challenging. Tried that, worth it.

[Zulk RS]

3 hours ago, Maes said:

It may seem like a reasonable challenge NOW, but think of the average 1994 setup: barely being able to run Doom at framerates above 20 fps, default keyboard controls etc. plus not many people -if any- were into speedrunning.

 

Just like a sporting event whose technique and training has evolved over time, performance levels and records one thought "unattainable" are now considered practically "entry-level" for all newcomers.

 

Agreeing with Maes here. Also I think it less had to do with framerate and controls and more of what the developers expected from the average player. Even now when a game is released and speedrunners pick it up, you can see world records that complete a normally 30-40 hour game in 45 mins or less by doing all sorts of crazy moves and using game mechanics in unintended ways. I think the same can be said about any challenge runs of any game like pacifist runs of Doom. The developers didn't intend or consider playing the game in this way and it makes things really hard or unfair but it is doable. Judging by the 'Are you sure" warning text that comes up when selecting nightmare, I don't think the game was meant to be beaten that way but it was never impossible... just unintended.

 

And like Maes said, the more techniques evolve, the easier it gets to do something.

[seed]

Yes, and the fact that it even warns the user that "It isn't even remotely fair" is as explicit a statement as it could possibly get, proving that it served a trolling purpose or at the very least, be a gimmick.

 

It may have been accepted as a legitimate difficulty since, especially in the speedrunning scene, but that doesn't change its original design retroactively, that it was a joke difficulty meant to troll those who felt UV was way too easy for them.

 

Or, in HK droid style if you will - Mocking statement: Master, Nightmare difficulty is a skill setting no balancing was done for, proceed at your own risk.

[the ultimate mgm]

3 hours ago, Doomkid said:

To me the whole "Are you sure? This difficulty level isn't even remotely fair" quote is strong evidence suggesting it was, at the very least, a gimmick difficulty. Also, the fact is, other than maybe E1 and some super easy wads, Nightmare is still hard as fuck. At least for me..

nice to see you here,but yes l agree it is nearly unbeatable,l rememeber that l beat doom 2 on nightmare it was sorta hard,all though it is maybe a joke,to you at least it is hard in your eyes but l think yes the (are you sure ?,this difficulty isn't remotely fair) is true,l suggest to the players in the game to play on hurt me plenty and not ultra violence or nightmare.

[AinuTheTaken]

It was probably added for speedrunners.

[dmplayer5]

To add to this, here is what the DOOM v1.2 Manual said about it:

* New NIGHTMARE skill level for you tough guys

[Shredosaurus]

On 10/14/2020 at 7:23 AM, Pegleg said:

Look back at it from the perspective of the relatively new audience in 1994. You say, "It's easy, just learn where all the things you need are at, and then plan your route carefully." This is easy enough to say now, but a much taller task in 1994, when there wasn't 25+ years of information and experience available at your fingertips, let alone a large community that could be easily reached relatively quickly. Honestly, if you think about it, if they wanted to make the game a more difficult experience, with a minimal amount of work, then they went about it the right way. They added the code to resurrect dead monsters and increased there speed. Then they doubled the ammo you get from pickups (which was already in the code from ITYTD). And then they let it ride. Could they have added a whole new difficulty level, with new monster and ammo distributions? Sure, but that would have required more work on their parts to do, for something that was really only meant to challenge a select few people at the time.

 

I think short of some interview quote or something materializing, this is the key point to consider. Contrary to the thoughtful construction and placement that characterizes the classic Doom level design and balance, Nightmare slaps some variables on and introduces RNG-based monster respawns and calls it a day. And granted whatever degree it sensationalizes or "storifies" it, I'm reminded of Masters of Doom depicting Romero's shit-talky gamer instincts being galvanized by the culture that developed around the game after its initial release, and maybe Nightmare is kind of an extension of that. Maybe it's not a joke in the sense that isn't literally unplayable or anything, but maybe it *is* kind of a joke in the sense that it was a relatively easy way to go "okay fuckers, so you're so smart and good at UV, now try it where everything is twice as fast and the monsters are respawning while you're getting hitscanned to death by early game trash."