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GraphicBleeder

Opinions on jumping in doom?

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Don't.

 

Jumping and crouching is meant for wads and games which were designed with it in mind. Using the features in different scenarios will lead to sequence breaking and softlocks, in addition to reaching areas you're otherwise not supposed to reach.

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I usually avoid it unless the mapper specifically designed their map with the intention of having you jump at points. After all, you never used to be able to jump in Doom and most mappers otherwise stick to making their maps with that in mind. So you'll easily sequence break if you do tend to use it a lot, thus really fucking up the progression of the map and cheapening the experience and kind of making a mockery of their work.

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I only use it in the IWADs in very specific situations (For example, E4M2 has a lot of places where you need to "glide" through, I just jump instead) other than these situations, I do not use it.

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I always say play however you want, but understand that your commentary carries less to little to no value if you refuse to play as intended.

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some levels can not be completed, if you do not use jump

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If you're playing by yourself in single player, it would be worth to at least have 1 play through of a wad with intended settings. But at the end of the day, you can play however you want locally. No doom police is going come and toss your computer out the window just because you enabled jumping in a mapset not designed for jumping. It's really not that serious of an issue...

 

Crouching is a bit different. It's pretty broken (op) and you're most likely going to get trapped some how in a map eventually. But as stated already, play how you want. No one is going to beat you up for not adhering to their definition of 'the right way'.

 

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16 hours ago, BoxY said:

Even in wads that require it, I really don't like doing it, it just feels oddly...unclean.

Same.  I often forget to use jumping even when the mapset requires it because my primary way to play DOOM is on my DOS PC using vanilla.  I also never mouselook in source ports due to this :D

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I never use jumping in maps that aren't designed for it unless except for elevators that take wayyy to long to rise up

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I like the option of having it. I never exploit it in any WADs that never use it, only time I use it is to speed some parts up like pressing a switch to raise a platform but clearing the jump anyway, it feels like I can play fair yet play in my own style.

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Fine as long as you use it only in mods that require it or mods that were designed with it in mind, or if you're just messing around.

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I mean, obviously don't use it in classic maps because they aren't designed for it in mind.

 

Not to be a boomer, but it feels to me like jumping and crouching are features added in later ports solely because they are in other shooters, without much care given to how it changes the game, for better or for worse. I equate adding jumping and crouching in Doom to allowing the player to move and shoot at the same time in Resident Evil games. Limitations are not immediately a bad thing.

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It makes me super uncomfortable, and just feels wrong... Even in other id Tech 1 games like MM8BDM it feels really weird, just like freelook.

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I don't use it unless it's the intended way to play the map. Same goes for mouselook. Honestly, I've got a soft spot for games designed around technical limitations, and removing those (visible) limitations removes a lot of the charm for me.

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I don't know how it compares to other FPS but jump mazes in Zandronum can be a lot of fun. I suck big time at them but watching a player who is good at them is really something neat to see.

 

I don't allow jumping or crouching on my vanilla servers but I do like it when there are gameplay mods involved. It's a good way to move very fast.

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I never use it unless I think it has to be used. Sometimes it does. Also, jumping is functional in Doom but it's not really a great feeling to jump so that's another reason to avoid it unless needed. 

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I'm all for jumping. Unless it's into a pit from which the player can't climb out.

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I wish there were more maps designed for jumping and crouching. Do you have any idea how fun it is to dive out of a small window by sprinting at it, jumping and crouching in midair? No you don't, cause there are no maps that make you do that. Also, leapfrogging over enemies (32 unit jump + 24 unit climb = 56, which is the exact height of all low tier enemies...) and ducking under projectiles can be really fun too. I wish I could play a map that requires me to duck under attacks. Or a map that uses the increased mobility for exploration. Imagine making a realistic map and not having to stack up a conspicuous pile of tiny crates just to let the player jump over a fence.

 

But what I'm getting instead is modders not even jumpproofing their jump-enabled zdoom maps, and letting me escape and poke the skybox without cheats cause they forgot they're not using infinitely tall decorations. (ZDoom maps broken so far: Pirate Doom, Extermination Day, Blade of Agony and that one artsy mod that turns out to be an ad campaign for Jesus Christ)

Edited by Scypek2

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Since other people have brought up freelook, I figured I'd throw my hat in the ring for that.

 

Some people see freelook in a similar fashion to jumping and crouching in that you should avoid it if it's not absolutely intended...

 

But for me, if I'm using the mouse, I HAVE to have freelook on. Let me explain.

 

I got into FPS games on the PC with full mouselook in the early 2010s. That's just the way FPS games control for me, with full mouse aiming, so this shit is drilled into my brain. I didn't have much of an issue when I played Doom keyboard-only, because looking up or down would be individual actions anyway.

 

But when you have horizontal-only mouselook, my brain just splits in half. The seamless connection between me, the controller, and the gameworld becomes disconnected because my brain feels like something is broken. It would be like if you woke up one morning to find that you couldn't bend your elbow.

 

I tried to play the official Unity port like this, and I just couldn't get used to it. It just feels completely unnatural to not have 1:1 mouse aiming.

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All I have to say is this:

If the author has not intended their maps for jumping/crouching, YES, it is cheating.

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Don't.

 

The jumping mechanic is absurd! How can Doomguy jump while carrying such a varied and heavy arsenal? It feels unrealistic, and maps that encourage it fall outside the realm of realism.

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Curious how this immediately makes me think about people recommending GZDoom to players who have never tried out the classic games and are completely unaware you're not supposed to freelook and/or jump.

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2 hours ago, hfc2x said:

Curious how this immediately makes me think about people recommending GZDoom to players who have never tried out the classic games and are completely unaware you're not supposed to freelook and/or jump.

Yeah, IMO both should be off by default (crouching too). Personally, I'm not a fan of jumping and freelook on most wads with the exception of some TCs.

 

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12 hours ago, beast said:

The jumping mechanic is absurd! How can Doomguy jump while carrying such a varied and heavy arsenal? It feels unrealistic, and maps that encourage it fall outside the realm of realism.

 

Well, then I suppose Lo Wang, Caleb, Duke, Gordon Freeman, Ranger, & more must possess Herculean strength to carry such a wide variety of weapons around and still be able to jump.

 

Oh, not to forget the inventory items too, particularly Diving Suits, Jetpacks, and Scuba Gears. Or to change genres, how player characters can still jump in RPGs while carrying literally hundreds of items and dozens of weapons ;) .

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Don't forget Doom always allowed horizontal jumping. At the time though - 1993 - it was hard to maka a 3D graphical game while allowing vertical jumping. Maybe if Tom Hall had remained in iD Software for longer - remember, he was the one who created Duke Nukem's engine - we would have been initially able to jump in Doom. 

 

But I find the game too easy with jumping. I am totally against it, because a lot of the tactics in the game was based on the inability to jump. If you want tactics with jumping being an essential part, maybe the Star Wars Dark Forces/Jedi Knight series are for you. 

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7 minutes ago, spd7693 said:

if Tom Hall had remained in iD Software for longer - remember, he was the one who created Duke Nukem's engine

 

Huh? Where are you getting this from?

 

The Build engine was designed by Ken Silverman.

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OK, so maybe I am wrong. I know Tom Hall worked for 3D Realms at the time. Sorry. 

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13 minutes ago, spd7693 said:

OK, so maybe I am wrong. I know Tom Hall worked for 3D Realms at the time. Sorry. 

 

Not as engine developer for the Build games, that's always been Ken. What Tom did at 3DR was mainly this:

 

"Tom left id Software in August 1993 to join Apogee/3D Realms. He was the game designer for Rise of the Triad, produced Terminal Velocity, and helped in varying degrees on Duke Nukem II and Duke Nukem 3D as well. He also worked on the Prey engine until August 12, 1996, when he left Apogee."

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Nothing wrong with jumping. After all, it was added to Hexen and to Strife. Doom's competition, such as the Build engine games, also brought jumping and swimming and flying and getting shrunken to go through mouse tunnels. Quake and followers all had jumping.

 

Yes, you can break progression in maps that aren't designed with it in mind, so it's fine if jumping is disabled for such maps. That said there are so many ways to break progression in maps even with just the vanilla toolbox, like SR-50 and rocket-boosting or activating switches through walls while ignoring height differences... I kinda feel the argument isn't so much that it allows to break progression, but that it allows to break progression even if you're a noob so you may not even realize you're breaking map progression. With that caveat in place, there's nothing wrong IMO with jumping, with breaking map progression, or with combining both and breaking map progression through jumping, as long as you're aware that it's what you're doing and it's your deliberate choice to do so.

 

I don't care much about crouching, though. Just not something I like to use. Jumping is a "fast" mobility option that lets you find shorter paths in open spaces. Crouching is a "slow" mobility options that let you take linear cramped spaces. It's amusing to note that Doom 3 allowed the marine to jump and crouch; while Doom 2016 and Eternal removed crouching but added climbing, grabbing monkeybars to double-jump in the air, and even dashing and grappling!

 

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