The Ancient Gods -- review from someone who DIDN'T like it

[Mr. Duk]

I just finished The Ancient Gods, and although I liked a lot of the Blood Swamps, overall I really didn't like this DLC at all. It was tedious and annoying. I feel like the nu-Doom is fully going in the wrong direction right now.

 

So you know where I stand, Ultimate Doom/Doom 2 are my favorite games ever, or at least top 3. (And they'll always be in my top 3.) I wasn't really looking forward to Doom 2016, and I didn't even buy it on release. When I finally played it later that summer, it instantly became my favorite shooter of the 2010s. I think Doom 2016 is a masterpiece, and it was better than anything I ever could have expected. I'd still rank the original Dooms above it (partly because of all the custom modded content), but still, Doom 2016 absolutely was a worthy modern version of the game. I've played it start to finish 4 times. It's still fun to play in 2020.

 

Then comes Doom Eternal. I felt like Eternal was one step forward, two steps back. I still liked the game, but I didn't LOVE it. Ironically I actually liked the addition of the Marauder, I thought he was a modern day version of the arch-vile in that he completely changes the way you have to play. As long as he isn't overused, I think he's a good addition to the bestiary. However, I **HATED** the jumping puzzles. They were tedious, and the mechanics for jumping just aren't very good in my opinion. The jumping puzzles really hurt replayability, too. I don't mind that Eternal tried to make the game more vertical. In fact, I actually think that was a good design choice (one step forward). However, putting in so many tedious jumping puzzles was so unnecessary and laborious (two steps back). I liked the dash mechanic, but overall I still felt that Doom 2016 was a bit better balanced, and I much preferred the vibe of Doom 2016; dark and mysterious and truly Hellish. Eternal was a bit too arcade-y for my tastes, and I wish the Hell levels had that darker more foreboding vibe of Doom 2016. The other thing I've always loved about Doom is that it gives you player freedom in how you want to play it. I felt like Eternal was pushing too far into "you have to fight like this if you want to win", even though their dance of death had a lot to like about it. It just went a littttllleeee too far in that direction for my tastes.

 

So... with ALL OF THAT SAID... this DLC takes Eternal to 11 and I think it's just tedious at this point. They have more and more enemies, now in more and more cramped spaces. They've added new enemies that you can only defeat in one way (like the Spirit... cool idea, but tedious in execution). The Marauder is now overused and too common, though I did like the fight between two of them. The Blood Swamps I do think is a neat level, and I loved the mechanic with the guardian dogs (and I thought that was a better way to try and put you in a confined space with demons than narrow hallways). However, the other two levels were tedious. There was no rhythm to them. It was just, "here we'll spawn these enemies in bunches of 2s and 4s and you fight them." The boss with the box and the eye was extremely boring. You beat it. Then there's another box. Then there's two more. All the time you are running around to avoid the Pinky and Hell Knights. It's just like, "I did this, why am I still doing this now...? How long until I can move on?" And the first level had probably some of the most annoying jumping puzzles of the entire game, including two that bugged me out and sent me flying off into the sea with no death (requiring a restart). BEYOND tedious.

 

I realize some people are really enjoying this DLC, and I'm glad! But for me this isn't what I like about Doom. It's gotten so fast and so frantic that it's lost a sense of rhythm and pacing. If everything is set to 11, then it ceases to have any real stakes or sense of progression. Yes, it's difficult, but playing on HMP I only died once (minus falling deaths). I just got bored. After you kill your fourth Baron in a row it's like... ok, I get it, I get it! Now, to be fair, I'm not a big fan of slaughter wads, and this is basically a modern day slaughter wad. I like a bit of that, but I'm a big fan of ebbs and flows and pacing things so it ramps up and ramps down and then ramps up again. Knee-Deep in the Dead *still* does this perfectly, as did SIGIL, and as do a bunch of recent wads like Akeldama. Ancient Gods to me just became noise, and I can't see myself ever wanting to play through it again on a higher difficulty like I did with the base game (HMP and then Nightmare).

 

In my ideal world, a potential Doom 3 (if there is a nu-Doom 3) would be a mix of Eternal and Doom 2016 mechanics, and it would abandon arena focused combat for fully open levels like the original 90s games. It'd add back in monster infighting that isn't scripted, so that can become a part of the strategy. I'd also love to see them go a bit God of War and have these massive demons doing battle in the background, and maybe you even have combat sections on one of them or one of the temples being carried by a large demon. I still liked Eternal, but I feel like the game has decided to go a certain route (dance of death where you HAVE to fight demons in certain ways, jumping puzzles, arcade-y arena action) and I'd rather the series goes in the other direction.

 

Anyway, my two cents. I see a lot of people here *LOVE* the new DLC, and I'm glad y'all like it, but I wanted to offer a counter opinion. I'd give Ultimate Doom / Doom 2 an A++, Doom 2016 a solid A, Eternal a solid B, and this new DLC a C or C-. Blood Swamps saved it from being a complete let down.

Edited October 21, 2020 by Mr. Duk

[Taurus Daggerknight]

A fair review! (And may I say, thank you for appreciating that it may be to others tastes even if not your own/ not making this a "GAMING IS RUINED" thread).

 

I'm still in the Blood Swamps, and so far having a blast, but with that said, I absolutely agree about how Marauders are being way overused this time around. I'd also like to see a return to  a more "serious" Doom, as much fun as I'm having with 2016/ Eternal. I don't know that such would be "better", and I've been having enough of a blast to not feel like it's missing exactly, but yeah, I do like the more tense themes sometimes too. 

[D4NUK1]

This difficulty ramp up remind me of old game expansions, where it's was "okay you beat the game in hard, not this would be 3x harder"

Yeah, im talking about you plutonia at 2001 only keyboard old me. This Expansion know it's have a limited time in comparation of the whole campaing, so making this more hard and finally being like a classic doom map (The begining it's literaly a PWAD begin).

But im with you point on this it's Eternal 3x

[SulfurOccult]

I've never understood this "jumping puzzle" complaint. What puzzle? There is no puzzle.

[Mr. Duk]

1 hour ago, Taurus Daggerknight said:

A fair review! (And may I say, thank you for appreciating that it may be to others tastes even if not your own/ not making this a "GAMING IS RUINED" thread).

 

Variety is a good thing! Part of what I love about DOOM is there's something for everyone. Some people want Sunder, others want Jenesis, others want Ancient Aliens. Some people love Brutal DOOM, others hate it, some are like me and enjoy it as a novelty. There are so many different wads and mods. Variety is a good thing.

 

1 hour ago, jamondemarnatural said:

This difficulty ramp up remind me of old game expansions, where it's was "okay you beat the game in hard, not this would be 3x harder"

 

I don't disagree, and I expected a difficulty spike. To me, the "difficulty" isn't the problem, it's the repetitive tediousness of it all. For example, in the final battle, you fight two possessed spirit demons, and THEN... you get to do it all over again and fight two more possessed demons! Come on. Or an even better example: the fight with the boxes. You have to fight an evil eye box, then you have to fight a second one, and then you have to fight two more at once. It's just too drawn out and tedious to me. I think a better way to handle it: you fight a box, and defeat it. You then fight a second box, and once the eye turns red a third box comes alive at the same time and you have to fight them both. This cuts out one phase of the battle. Also, when the second box activates, new enemies could spawn that are more difficult than the pinky or Hell Knight. That would be a better use of pacing in my opinion and would keep this boss battle from becoming stale and boring. And even though I think Marauders are overused in this DLC, *this* actually could have been a perfect place to use one as you try to defeat the two boxes at once. So the battle is shorter, but more difficult and varied.

 

1 hour ago, SulfurOccult said:

I've never understood this "jumping puzzle" complaint. What puzzle? There is no puzzle. 

 

Let's not get into a semantics argument, I clearly mean that I loathe the jumping sections. I do think some of them are puzzles, though, as there have been times in both Eternal and the Ancient Gods where I have been confused about where I need to go next. Sometimes you need to shoot something in mid-air, too, or ignite a gust of air that can blow you from one location to another. Also sometimes a cinematic will show you what you have to do because it's a series of timed events that you can screw up (with fireballs, etc.)

 

The "puzzle" aspect isn't the problem, it's the mechanics and the frequency of these platforming bits that annoys me. If you enjoy them, cool! But I do NOT enjoy them, and I wish they weren't in my DOOM game. The Ancient Gods has multiple jumping puzzles where the room fills up with poison gas, so if you aren't sure where to go next or you forget, you die. It's just tedious and isn't DOOM to me.

[SovereignX9]

There are a few things that have been annoying me with this expansion: 

 

The Spirit. I think the idea is cool in theory, but the fact that you have to microwave it with the plasma gun absolutely stalls the fast paced flow of movement that the game expects you to have. It's like "alright, I'm doing 5 things at once, while trying to kill this Arachnotron that's on blue crack, kill it, then have to suddenly sit here and wait to microwave this thing while 5 shotgunners and 3 spectres rush me in the blinding fog while I'm at 30% health. While these enemies rush me I have to try and jump and move around them without jumping into the explosive acid testicles so I can kill this blue Summoner so it doesn't posses a f*cking spectre and ho ho let's see me try to kill that... at 15% health." 

 

It's just really annoying honestly. It totally just halts you in your tracks, in a game all about high speed and nEvEr StOp MoViNg.

 

Second is something I may just be experiencing personally, perhaps I just don't know where to land in a combat arena after dashing or jumping, but I've been getting stuck on shit constantly in this expansion. I get stuck on something 2-3 times I'd say about every 20 minutes? That never really happened to me in the main campaign. Idk. It got me killed a few times. 

 

Lastly is the explosive acid testicles. Just... ugh.

 

Overall I can a understand your opinions, though I've liked Doom Eternal for the most part. I'd rather have this than some sort of Call Of Doom cover shooter. I don't think you'll ever be able to completely replicate the magic of the original, because it's just so special. I say the same thing with UT99.

 

But yeah this expansion is fun overall, just kind of annoying in some places, some parts of the expansion just don't feel like they were really thought out enough. The duo Marauders was awesome, and I personally love seeing (and killing) more Barons and Archie's. It still felt like you just didn't see enough of them in the base game. These are all just my opinions though.

[IrOn7HuB]

  I missed playing DOOM Eternal tbh. The expansion was actually fun and i'm okay they expanded the lifetime of the game with the first part of the "episodic" expansions. I liked it as it is and it doesn't concern me the fact they wanted to add new tastes and variation in terms of combat and challenges you to stay alert in the middle of every combat arena. I give it a B+ for expanding the game's life with those maps that took longer than i expected to finish them and explore.
  The story was okay but the motion of the "lore" felt exaggerated for my opinion. I'm still intrigued nonetheless and i'd like to see where it's going.

 I wish they could add more levels, user generated maps, mods or a brand new "multiplayer" game mode that can allow the game to become "Eternal."

I still stay positive for what comes next. DOOM Eternal is an ambitious shooter like the other games, the classics and the cancelled project no one likes (but i do.) I just love killing demons and it's always about it on every game from the franchise. There is literally nothing wrong with paying tribute to the first two games and adding new experiences.

[Tony_Danza_the_boss]

Quote

One step forward and two steps back

 

Exactly my feeling towards Eternal as well. I think you hit the nail on the head for Doom 2016. That game is just about near perfection as I can imagine it. The vibe, tone, atmosphere and combat all just screamed Doom, where Eternal just feels like it goes way overboard. What I love about 2016 is it kept the story extremely simple: Doomguy (Slayer) the UAC, Mars, Hell Portals. demons, lots more demons, and Hell. That is all a Doom game ever should be and all it needs to. This convoluted lore and page after page of codex reading is so inane and not Doom I honestly can't believe there aren't more people turned off by it. Do people really prefer to read pages of codex lore in their Doom game? It just goes so against what the original team at Id did with Doom and its minimalist story that it's just really jarring. I really enjoy the character of Samuel Hayden, and believes he acts as a perfect foil to the Slayer, but all this Seraphim nonsense and the Urdak storyline with him just kind of ruins it for me imo. He went from being a true Machiavellian yet simple to understand character willing to act in his and humanity's interests even if it compromised everything on Mars to this now extremely powerful deity with more pages of lore to read and backstory. I'm not even against having a complex story, but couldn't have Id just shown us this through gameplay instead of locking it behind the codex pages? 

 

I'm right there with you on your feelings about Eternal, and having played through almost all of Ancient Gods P1 at this point I'm pretty disappointed this will be the direction Id will be taking with future Doom titles. 

 

Edit: Also find it baffling the epic cliffhanger from 2016 was completely unaddressed save for a BRIEF reference in a codex page. What an opener Eternal could have been with you battling your way back to Mars to retrtieve the Crucible (which is also disappointing as it is a glorified 3 charge chainsaw replacement) from Hayden. 

[chemo]

2 hours ago, Tony_Danza_the_boss said:

 

Exactly my feeling towards Eternal as well. I think you hit the nail on the head for Doom 2016. That game is just about near perfection as I can imagine it. The vibe, tone, atmosphere and combat all just screamed Doom, where Eternal just feels like it goes way overboard. What I love about 2016 is it kept the story extremely simple: Doomguy (Slayer) the UAC, Mars, Hell Portals. demons, lots more demons, and Hell. That is all a Doom game ever should be and all it needs to. This convoluted lore and page after page of codex reading is so inane and not Doom I honestly can't believe there aren't more people turned off by it. Do people really prefer to read pages of codex lore in their Doom game? It just goes so against what the original team at Id did with Doom and its minimalist story that it's just really jarring. I really enjoy the character of Samuel Hayden, and believes he acts as a perfect foil to the Slayer, but all this Seraphim nonsense and the Urdak storyline with him just kind of ruins it for me imo. He went from being a true Machiavellian yet simple to understand character willing to act in his and humanity's interests even if it compromised everything on Mars to this now extremely powerful deity with more pages of lore to read and backstory. I'm not even against having a complex story, but couldn't have Id just shown us this through gameplay instead of locking it behind the codex pages? 

 

I'm right there with you on your feelings about Eternal, and having played through almost all of Ancient Gods P1 at this point I'm pretty disappointed this will be the direction Id will be taking with future Doom titles. 

 

Edit: Also find it baffling the epic cliffhanger from 2016 was completely unaddressed save for a BRIEF reference in a codex page. What an opener Eternal could have been with you battling your way back to Mars to retrtieve the Crucible (which is also disappointing as it is a glorified 3 charge chainsaw replacement) from Hayden.  

If you don't like all the codex pages in Eternal... then just don't read them? Is it any wonder why they put them in the menus instead of shoving excessive amounts of exposition in your face? It's not even like reading them is required to not be completely lost.

 

If the vast lore doesn't get in the way of gameplay, then who cares?

[Mr. Duk]

3 hours ago, SovereignX9 said:

The Spirit. I think the idea is cool in theory, but the fact that you have to microwave it with the plasma gun absolutely stalls the fast paced flow of movement that the game expects you to have. It's like "alright, I'm doing 5 things at once, while trying to kill this Arachnotron that's on blue crack, kill it, then have to suddenly sit here and wait to microwave this thing while 5 shotgunners and 3 spectres rush me in the blinding fog while I'm at 30% health. While these enemies rush me I have to try and jump and move around them without jumping into the explosive acid testicles so I can kill this blue Summoner so it doesn't posses a f*cking spectre and ho ho let's see me try to kill that... at 15% health." 

 

Agreed. Like with the Marauder, it can be a fun way to shake up the challenge, but *in limited doses*. It just gets annoying when you have to deal with it over and over and over again. Ultimately, the words I would use for The Ancient Gods are TEDIOUS and ANNOYING and A CHORE at times to play. I'm not a big fan of enemies where there is only one way to kill them, and now we have the Marauders, the Spirits and the Blood Makyrs. Two of those were added just for The Ancient Gods, and the Marauders are now much more common. OG Doom and Doom 2016 had a lot more player freedom in the way you could choose to approach combat. Even Eternal had a lot more freedom in comparison to The Ancient Gods, which just seems to double and triple down on the new mechanics introduced in Eternal. I'd much rather id find a balance between Doom 2016 and Eternal.

 

3 hours ago, SovereignX9 said:

Second is something I may just be experiencing personally, perhaps I just don't know where to land in a combat arena after dashing or jumping, but I've been getting stuck on shit constantly in this expansion. I get stuck on something 2-3 times I'd say about every 20 minutes? That never really happened to me in the main campaign. Idk. It got me killed a few times.

 

Yeah, I've experienced a lot more bugs in The Ancient Gods than either Eternal or Doom 2016. We are in a pandemic and people are working remotely (I assume), so I'm willing to forgive bugs because it's a difficult work situation, but it's still annoying. Twice while jumping the game has just launched my character into empty space with no chance to kill myself.

 

3 hours ago, SovereignX9 said:

I'd rather have this than some sort of Call Of Doom cover shooter. I don't think you'll ever be able to completely replicate the magic of the original, because it's just so special. I say the same thing with UT99. 

 

Absolutely, and like I said, I still liked Eternal a lot. The Ancient Gods is the first Doom related thing in the modern era that has really disappointed me. So overall I'm still beyond excited that we've had 2 (1.75?) modern Doom games that have kicked ass. UT99 is a top 5 shooter of all time for me, as well. Near perfection.

 

2 hours ago, IrOn7HuB said:

There is literally nothing wrong with paying tribute to the first two games and adding new experiences.

 

Agreed, I like ambition and trying new things. HOWEVER -- sometimes when you have something that works, you don't need to immediately try to re-invent the wheel again. I'm an old guy, so I was a kid when Doom II came out, and I remember some reviews knocked it for basically being "more Doom". Well, d'uh! That's what I wanted! Doom II still has such an influence to this day because they didn't try to re-invent the wheel; instead id tweaked the base formula by adding a new weapon and new enemies and textures but they kept the core engine and mechanics the same. I'd love to see more Doom that is closer to the Doom 2016 vibe, but I realize I'm in the minority. Oh well!

 

2 hours ago, Tony_Danza_the_boss said:

I'm right there with you on your feelings about Eternal, and having played through almost all of Ancient Gods P1 at this point I'm pretty disappointed this will be the direction Id will be taking with future Doom titles.

 

Yup. And don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining. Nothing will take away the OG Doom or Doom 2016. But I feel like id can still do so much with this franchise, and I feel like they've settled on this new direction and it's one that personally isn't as much my cup of tea. At this point I'll probably play the final DLC because I'm already getting it (I have the Deluxe edition), but if there's more content after that I'll probably pass on it unless there's a creative change. (I'd love to see new levels and DLC for Doom 2016! Wishful thinking, I know.)

 

2 hours ago, Tony_Danza_the_boss said:

I think you hit the nail on the head for Doom 2016. That game is just about near perfection as I can imagine it. The vibe, tone, atmosphere and combat all just screamed Doom

 

I really cannot state enough just how much I *LOVE* Doom 2016. I had no idea a modern shooter could be that GOOD. I can see myself playing that game 5-10 years down the road or more, kinda like the OG Doom.

[chemo]

TBH I never understood this whole "specific playstyle" issue people have with DOOM Eternal or even its DLC.

 

DOOM 2016 allowed people to, like what, use a single weapon all day long that ultimately doesn't change much about the way you approach encounters? It's not even like the Cacodemons or whatever else in Eternal are invulerable to the Super Shotgun. I'd even say that this game allows more creativity in some ways because of the infinitely-respawning fodder combined with the refueling chainsaw.

 

And yeah, the Spirits require a very specific way of actually killing them, but they're not really an enemy in the traditional sense since they buff already existing monsters and can't attack directly. They also differ in that in order to kill them, you're putting yourself in an extremely vulnerable state, unlike most of the other enemy weak points. Their purpose feels like it's more to shake-up the already existing types of encounters rather than being the encounter, if you know what I mean. The other new enemies don't even really take the same kind of path.

 

Besides, it's not like there aren't monsters in Classic DOOM or even DOOM 2016 that don't have vulnerabilities of their own. For instance, the chainsaw can effortlessly kill a Possessed Security guy in 2016, and the chaingun's stun-locking capabilities in Classic DOOM are particularly useful against Pain Elementals.

[igg]

This is the first time since my Sega Genesis days I rage quitted a game. Even after lowering difficulty from UV to HMP the final fight is totaly frustrating. I'm now at the part Samur spawned two spirit demons (again), this time a Pain Elemental and a Dread Knight and some annoying Maykr angel. Thats not fun anymore.

[NeoWorm]

Oh, you have to use microwave to kill the spirits? Microwave was so useless that they just had to craft a use for it and force it o to players instead of fixing the gun? It seems like typical Eternal approach - peiple are using single weapon too much and don't use chainsaw at all if not absolutelly necessary, let's cripple the mechanics to force them to use that annoying thing.

 

That said from what I say so far from playthrough the levels actually looks like real levels that have some semblance of freedom and flow. Not just painkiller style chain of locked arenas. They are still there of course, but majority actually avoids the typical forcefields amd enemy teleporting in which majority of Eternal relied upon. Also there are more places where platforming is actualy part of the combat and not just completely separate filler. Even the Urdak looks decent when you don't spent half of the time jumping through literal hoops. I may actually return to it for the DLC. Too bad that the story is still forced in and cringy as F.

[jazzmaster9]

31 minutes ago, NeoWorm said:

the story is still forced in and cringy as F.

I'm sorry but I don't see how the story is in anyway forced in this. it certainly isn't mindblowing or ground breaking, but it still frames the action pretty well and gives a bit more background on who the slayer is and how Hell isn't the only opposing force.

 

calling it cringy ^{(i hope i dont  have to use this word unironically again)} is just silly IMO when its taken very seriously with the added lore.

 

Pretty interesting, that OP has very well thought out Analysis on why he didnt like the DLC and then see "its cringy AF" in the same thread.

[NeoWorm]

3 minutes ago, jazzmaster9 said:

calling it cringy is just silly IMO when its taken very seriously with the added lore.

Repercussions of evil was also taken seriously and it was still awful garbage cringe. Eternal story somehow manages to feel even worse.

[snapshot]

I guess this DLC is not going to win me over if I didn't really like the base game all that much then, sigh, at least you could just chill and soak in the atmosphere a bit more in the first game than this dark souls wannabe.

[jazzmaster9]

6 minutes ago, NeoWorm said:

Repercussions of evil was also taken seriously and it was still awful garbage cringe. Eternal story somehow manages to feel even worse.

Well thankfully Eternal's Story wasn't that. it actually made the world more interesting to go through.

5 minutes ago, sluggard said:

than this dark souls wannabe.

How exactly is this dark Souls? And NO, being Hard is not 'dark Souls'.

I also fail to see how being Dark Souls is a bad thing

[Taurus Daggerknight]

I do have this to say about the microwave beam; while the spirit thing is mildly annoying (mildly. I didn't mind it as much as the OP), I did actually have occasion to use it in the base game too. It's especially useful for the faster moving empowered demons, and generally things you just need to hold still for a moment.

 

I wish it worked on Marauders though. Actually...does it? Has anyone tried the beam to hold them down after their opening? 

 

I just wish it didn't slow you down so much, because that's the real kicker. 

[Super Mighty G]

2 hours ago, sluggard said:

this dark souls wannabe.

This kind of comparison really needs to die. Dark Souls, specifically DS1, doesn't have half the skill based tasks Doom Eternal does. Dark Souls is not hard, it is  punishing to players that make stupid decisions like face fucking enemies they clearly shouldn't. Doom Eternal demands multitasking and split second threat assessment which is far more difficult and taxing. 

[snapshot]

On 10/22/2020 at 4:33 PM, jazzmaster9 said:

I also fail to see how being Dark Souls is a bad thing

I didn't say it's a bad thing did I? I just don't like it

On 10/22/2020 at 6:56 PM, Super Mighty G said:

This kind of comparison really needs to die.

That was sarcasm, not to be taken seriously

Edited January 8, 2021 by sluggard

[BluePineapple72]

I've just finished Blood Swamps. I'd say it was my favorite level in Eternal so far. That being said, I have issues with Eternal as a whole.

I really like both 2016 and Eternal for different reasons, I think they both greatly exceed in the two directions that they both take with DOOM. However, I think that Eternal takes things a bit too far into the camp direction. I really like Eternal and wouldn't mind playing more, but it's making me itch for something different, something that falls into the middle ground between '16 and Eternal.

I may write a post explaining what I mean sometime in the future, or I may just make my own game lolololol

[Arbys550]

I really enjoy the spirit with the microwave beam actually. Because you're tied down when using it, it creates a cool dynamic where you have to decide whether or not to risk it and go for the beam. It prompts you to check your surroundings and make sure there are no enemies around to kill you while you are zapping it. If there are enemies around, there are different things you can do to allow you the freedom to kill the spirit. You can throw down an ice bomb for a breather moment, you can use a grenade to falter enemies if your ice bomb is not recharged for a shorter window, and then there's the option to leave the spirit for a little bit, kill enemies, then beam it again to refresh it's "repossession timer." Even though you have to use a certain mod against it, the restriction opens the door for more critical thinking on the player's part, which is what I love about it, and Eternal in general.

 

I must say I don't understand what's so tedious. Yeah, the arenas can be long, but you're in constant danger the whole time and I'm always on the edge of my seat throughout the entire fight. This is a long shot, but maybe if people think it's tedious, they're playing on too low of a difficulty and aren't getting the right amount of excitement, cause I know I sure as hell was constantly on the edge of my seat on nightmare.

 

And this is pure opinion, but I'm always baffled by people who say Doom 2016 was perfection. I personally find it boring. Every time I try to go back and play 2016, I just end up wishing I was playing Eternal.

[DNSKILL5]

Thanks for the review. I didn’t care for 2016 or DE, so I probably won’t bother with the DLC, especially after reading this and hearing some of the spoilers, not that it mattered much for me anyhow. I don’t know what it is, but I just can’t get into these new Doom games. I don’t care about “you control the buttons you press” - - I do not like the features the game has to offer, nor do I care for the storylines, the graphics, the sounds, etc. and you know what? I’m fine with feeling this way, and could give a fuck less if it upsets anyone that I don’t like the game. It doesn’t upset me that you like the game. I can understand why people love these new games. I’ve heard it all over and over. Guess what? Still don’t like it. That’s my choice. 
 

What I like most about the new games is the fresh blood it has brought into the Doom community. Which it seems to have brought in a lot of new people. Many of who played the newer titles first! I can live with not liking these titles, because there’s so many more people that do love them, yet they love the old games too, if not even more so. That means there’s still shit for me to enjoy anyhow, and the Doom community will survive long after many of the people here now are long gone, because the new games have taken the new generation’s attention to Doom and it will go on from there.
 

I can live with that! 

[Kyukon]

Nice take, overall, I feel about the same as you, although my preferences are slightly different.  I can see why you don't like the platforming, while still enjoying it myself. 

 

What I found most irritating about Doom Eternal was how linear the critical path of every single level is.  When Eternal came out, I was hoping for more levels like The Forge and The Argent Facility from 2016, at a bare minimum.  I got excited when I saw Super Gore Nest's main room for the first time, only to be met with disappointment upon realizing that you really can't grab the keys out of order, under normal circumstances. 

Hell, you can't even get the 1UP secret from unintended angles without clipping.  That kind of epitomizes the sense of "You will play this our way or not at all" feeling you're conveying.

 

The Ancient Gods continues this trend, and it really kills my excitement having little to no split or branching of the core progression in levels. 

That being said, it's okay to have some good linear levels now and again, like the ARC Complex.  Its progression is linear, but you still get to see some of the same areas more than once.

At least the Art team continues to nail it.  They're doing a great job.

 

The Ancient Gods had a few more corridor fights, but I wholeheartedly agree on wishing there would be more open areas or hallways, and fewer "lockdown" arenas.  I'm not here to bash Arenas, because sometimes they can be fun, but they really have a time and place.  Something like the gladiator arena is perfect for arena combat, but Doom needs random and organic enemy placement.  When you don't have the little fights sprinkled across the level, the arenas become way too bloated and active as you said.  The lack of actual enemy in-fighting is also annoying too.

 

Finally, as someone also liked the initial difficulty the Maurader offered, I do wish he wasn't the same every time.  Maybe if his shield had a limit before it gets destroyed, and at that point, he becomes faster and can no longer be staggered?  Would have extra cool factor points to spawn in 2 together, one with shield up, the other down.  'Cause right now, once you get the hang of him, it's really repetitive, which is kind of the opposite of what he's supposed to do.

[Doom64hunter]

The very last wave of the boss fight of Ancient Gods is the absolute culmination of all the bullshit the DLC has to offer:

 

Spoiler

In short: You fight a Pain Elemental and a Dread Knight, both buffed by Spirits at the same time, while a Blood Maykr roams the arena and shoots at you occasionally. I played the game on Nightmare, so high difficulty is to be expected, but this one battle is just bullshit through and through.

 

Now the obvious first problem is that the buffed Pain Elemental has so much health that it could probably be the final boss on its own. It will survive two BFG shots or an entire volley of 60 Unmaykr blasts and still remain with 30% health left. You can target it with full ammo using the plasma beam and you won't kill it before you run out of ammo. Add onto that the fact that it does not take bonus damage from the Ballista and that it moves and shoots twice as fast, and you've got a nigh unkillable ball of death that can instakill you if you get unlucky.

 

Even if you do manage to kill it, you then need to kill the Spirit that spawns within 5-8 seconds or else it will just repossess the next Pain Elemental, which continuously respawns 5 seconds after the previous one died. And because of the ever-present ammo shortage in this game, you may very well be below 70 Plasma ammo, in which case you're fucked because then you have no way of killing the Spirit.

 

Trying to kill the Spirit forces you into tunnel vision and slows you down, denying you of any ability to deal with the Dread Knight or the Blood Maykr (or the 2 zombies in the area) that may very well be in the process of slicing your ass to pieces. If the Dread Knight is anywhere near you after you killed the Pain Elemental, then you're fucked because he too has an ungodly amount of health, cannot be stunned, and thus will prevent you from killing the Spirit.

 

Low on health? Tough shit because the only two enemies in the room which you can replenish health from reliably are the two zombies roaming the area, which are never where you need them to be, and give only 30 HP/ 30 Armor a pop anyways. You can theoretically restore ammo from the Blood Maykr, but you're hardly going to be focused enough to headshot the damn thing while a buffed Pain Elemental and Dread Knight are chasing your ass down.

 

Even once you finally kill the first spirit, you are given no reprieve because the Pain Elemental respawns immediately and will continue attacking you while trying to focus down the Dread Knight. Doing this the other way around is suicide because the rapid fire Lost Souls will instakill you when you are slowed down by the plasma beam.

 

Additional annoyances in this very arena:

• The Blood Maykr's ranged attacks slow you down. If you get hit by one of them, you will very likely get ravaged by the buffed enemies.
• The Blood Maykr also likes to hide behind corners and surprise you, or leap onto platforms. If this occurs and you can't get out of melee range in time, it will absolutely annihilate you, especially because it's invulnerable and you have no way of defending yourself.
• I regularly got stuck on random geometry while trying to jump around the arena, which gave ample opportunity for any of the enemies to obliterate me.
• And as if all that other bullshit wasn't enough yet, there's also laser grids moving around the area, just to piss you off some more.

I died more times in this one wave than in every other level of the game combined.

 

If the game had started the battle over from the beginning, the DLC might just be impossible to complete on Nightmare for 99.99% of all players -- mercifully however, the devs seem to have realized this, and you respawn at the start of the wave, instead of doing the entire boss battle over from the start. You'd need to be an absolute god to beat this on Ultra Nightmare though...

 

Edit: Oh, and did I mention that the lock-on rockets kept targetting the Lost Souls instead of the Pain Elemental? That also pissed me off to no end.

Edited October 22, 2020 by Doom64hunter

[Mr. Duk]

1 hour ago, Kyukon said:

What I found most irritating about Doom Eternal was how linear the critical path of every single level is.  When Eternal came out, I was hoping for more levels like The Forge and The Argent Facility from 2016, at a bare minimum.  I got excited when I saw Super Gore Nest's main room for the first time, only to be met with disappointment upon realizing that you really can't grab the keys out of order, under normal circumstances. 

Hell, you can't even get the 1UP secret from unintended angles without clipping.  That kind of epitomizes the sense of "You will play this our way or not at all" feeling you're conveying.

 

ALL of this. Yes! I'm a big fan of smart level design that gives players multiple ways to approach a map or a problem. Doom 2016 definitely had linear moments, but it also had levels that were more open than anything in Eternal, and I believe the combat offered more ways to play. Super Gore Nest, ironically, was actually my favorite level of Eternal though! I loved that it at least offered a mix of environments (cramped halls and big open spaces), and the arenas were strung together more organically than in a lot of the other levels (or especially the DLC).

 

Also, for the record, I did not play Doom 2016 with just one weapon, and in Eternal I still favored the SSG. I've seen some replies here: "I just don't see how anyone could find this to be tedious!" Well, as I mentioned, people can have different opinions! It's okay. I don't get why so many internet discussions have to boil down to: "this is my opinion and anyone who disagrees must be confused or wrong!" The Ancient Gods is simply not my cup of tea. Doom 2016 and the OG Doom *are* my cup of tea. Just like how I'm not a big fan of slaughter wads, but I get that some people LOVE them and that's cool too.

 

One final thing: THIS video is an example of why I love Doom 2016. The combat offers so many possibilities. It is possible to master it, and to do things with it that other players aren't doing. Interestingly, Clockner says he was not a big fan of Doom Eternal:

 

 

 

 

[Mr. Duk]

1 hour ago, Kyukon said:

Finally, as someone also liked the initial difficulty the Maurader offered, I do wish he wasn't the same every time.  Maybe if his shield had a limit before it gets destroyed, and at that point, he becomes faster and can no longer be staggered?  Would have extra cool factor points to spawn in 2 together, one with shield up, the other down.  'Cause right now, once you get the hang of him, it's really repetitive, which is kind of the opposite of what he's supposed to do. 

 

Also... YES. Repetitive is the right word for a lot of The Ancient Gods. You're doing the same thing over and over. You fight two possessed demons in the final battle. Then you do it again! You fight an evil eye box. Then you do it again. Then you do it again with two of them. Just because Doom is about blasting demons doesn't mean it has to be the same thing over and over again. Knee-Deep in the Dead from 1993 basically had 5 enemies and one general look, and yet the smart level design constantly made it feel like you were doing new things. A lot of The Ancient Gods just feels lazy: here's an arena, we'll spawn waves of x2 or x4 of enemies, you fight them, then you move to the next arena, then there's an annoying platform section, then another arena, rinse and repeat. The end!

 

Also... WHY couldn't I punch the shark?? Such a missed opportunity. I actually think some underwater combat (perhaps with a special weapon or modifier) could have been a cool way to switch things up.

[Archvile Hunter]

2 hours ago, Doom64hunter said:

The very last wave of the boss fight of Ancient Gods is the absolute culmination of all the bullshit the DLC has to offer:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

In short: You fight a Pain Elemental and a Dread Knight, both buffed by Spirits at the same time, while a Blood Maykr roams the arena and shoots at you occasionally. I played the game on Nightmare, so high difficulty is to be expected, but this one battle is just bullshit through and through.

 

Now the obvious first problem is that the buffed Pain Elemental has so much health that it could probably be the final boss on its own. It will survive two BFG shots or an entire volley of 60 Unmaykr blasts and still remain with 30% health left. You can target it with full ammo using the plasma beam and you won't kill it before you run out of ammo. Add onto that the fact that it does not take bonus damage from the Ballista and that it moves and shoots twice as fast, and you've got a nigh unkillable ball of death that can instakill you if you get unlucky.

 

Even if you do manage to kill it, you then need to kill the Spirit that spawns within 5-8 seconds or else it will just repossess the next Pain Elemental, which continuously respawns 5 seconds after the previous one died. And because of the ever-present ammo shortage in this game, you may very well be below 70 Plasma ammo, in which case you're fucked because then you have no way of killing the Spirit.

 

Trying to kill the Spirit forces you into tunnel vision and slows you down, denying you of any ability to deal with the Dread Knight or the Blood Maykr (or the 2 zombies in the area) that may very well be in the process of slicing your ass to pieces. If the Dread Knight is anywhere near you after you killed the Pain Elemental, then you're fucked because he too has an ungodly amount of health, cannot be stunned, and thus will prevent you from killing the Spirit.

 

Low on health? Tough shit because the only two enemies in the room which you can replenish health from reliably are the two zombies roaming the area, which are never where you need them to be, and give only 30 HP/ 30 Armor a pop anyways. You can theoretically restore ammo from the Blood Maykr, but you're hardly going to be focused enough to headshot the damn thing while a buffed Pain Elemental and Dread Knight are chasing your ass down.

 

Even once you finally kill the first spirit, you are given no reprieve because the Pain Elemental respawns immediately and will continue attacking you while trying to focus down the Dread Knight. Doing this the other way around is suicide because the rapid fire Lost Souls will instakill you when you are slowed down by the plasma beam.

 

Additional annoyances in this very arena:

• The Blood Maykr's ranged attacks slow you down. If you get hit by one of them, you will very likely get ravaged by the buffed enemies.
• The Blood Maykr also likes to hide behind corners and surprise you, or leap onto platforms. If this occurs and you can't get out of melee range in time, it will absolutely annihilate you, especially because it's invulnerable and you have no way of defending yourself.
• I regularly got stuck on random geometry while trying to jump around the arena, which gave ample opportunity for any of the enemies to obliterate me.
• And as if all that other bullshit wasn't enough yet, there's also laser grids moving around the area, just to piss you off some more.

I died more times in this one wave than in every other level of the game combined.

 

If the game had started the battle over from the beginning, the DLC might just be impossible to complete on Nightmare for 99.99% of all players -- mercifully however, the devs seem to have realized this, and you respawn at the start of the wave, instead of doing the entire boss battle over from the start. You'd need to be an absolute god to beat this on Ultra Nightmare though...

 

Edit: Oh, and did I mention that the lock-on rockets kept targetting the Lost Souls instead of the Pain Elemental? That also pissed me off to no end.

Just because you personally found it unmanagably difficult does not make it "bullshit".

[thewormofautumn]

1 hour ago, Mr. Duk said:

 

 

 

 

 

A few comments on that video

1. he's ridiculously good.

2. I miss the stun mod on the plasma rifle

3. I miss the pistol

4. As good as he is, he flicks the crosshair up and down so much when firing, it's weird.

5. BRING BACK THE GOD DAMN GAUSS CANNON. 

 

Gauss >>>>>>>> Ballista

[D88M3R]

I am with you, except that i did not liked Doom 2016 much either, the second time i played through it i was really bored with it in the first hours, it has zero replay value.
I am not a fan of the cartoonish style they gave Eternal and even less of the cringey "edgy" story that is like a parody of what a teenager thinks what "badass" means.
I also hate that you either play the exact same way the developers want you to play or you die.
I think the biggest screw up was replacing level design for arena after arena after arena after arena. Zero variety.
And all the jumping stuff that was already bad in 2016 is awful in Eternal, and is not even polished or consistent.
I have not played the DLC yet but i dont expect much based on what i read, just more of the same, i have not replayed Eternal either, there is nothing that is calling me to play it again.

 

Is good to read opinions like this because i am not a fan of "X thing is perfect and if you say something bad about it you are a hater" that is so common on the internet. The fact that these games are worse than others released 25 years ago blows my mind (this also happened with the Resident Evil remakes), they are not bad they are just wasted potential.