The more I play Heretic, the more it frustrates me

[GarrettChan]

11 minutes ago, Noiser said:

That's very interesting. How about the common enemies though? I always found the gargoyles more or less equivalent to the imps and golems can be killed a lot faster than pinkies.

Normal Gargoyles are 40 HP and Fire Gargoyles are 80 HP. I think you probably want to know Golem (80) and Nitrogolem (100) too.

 

The comparison between Shotgun and Crossbow actually has a lot of differences as Crossbow has only 3 pellets (1 big + 2 small), and the small pellets can't hit ghost monsters. Golem should mostly die in 2 full Crossbow shots. The chance could be higher than 2 SG shotting a Pinky, I would say.

[Noiser]

16 minutes ago, GarrettChan said:

The comparison between Shotgun and Crossbow actually has a lot of differences as Crossbow has only 3 pellets (1 big + 2 small), and the small pellets can't hit ghost monsters.

Oh yeah, it's already a different beast just by being a projectile weapon. My comparison was more about feeling than anything else.

Edited November 2, 2020 by Noiser

[GarrettChan]

4 minutes ago, Noiser said:

Oh yeah, it's already a very different beast for being a projectile weapon. My comparison was more about feeling than anything else.

TBH, the feeling is also quite different IMO. I think using Crossbow to cut throw Golems is more satisfying than SG your way through Pinkies. Before I'm actually playing Heretic, I originally thought it's just a reskin Doom, but after you actually play it, it does have quite different feelings. Enemies have their own danger, like Iron Liches can one shot you with one stack of firewall.

[Not Jabba]

42 minutes ago, Noiser said:

That's very interesting. How about the common enemies though? I always found the gargoyles more or less equivalent to the imps and golems can be killed a lot faster than pinkies. I still need to try your mod, maybe that can change my opinion since I'm not a big fan of bullet sponges (I never felt that way with Heretic though).

Right, Gargoyles are weaker (though hitting a Gargoyle with all three projectiles from a Crossbow is very difficult due to the way they're knocked back), and Golems/Nitrogolems are about the same health as Imps/chaingunners (but again, looking at two crossbow hits and occasionally three vs. one shotgun blast and occasionally two). The rest of the common enemies -- Sabreclaws, UWs, Disciples, Weredragons, and Ophids -- are in the 150-300 range, which is more like Pinky -- Revenant rather than Pinky -- Caco, but you get the idea. Most weapons in Heretic don't deplete that amount of HP very quickly, and the high amount of knockback means that a decent amount of the damage will end up missing, especially with the Hellstaff and to some extent the Crossbow.

[Cacodoomonic]

On 10/31/2020 at 12:32 AM, Benpaste said:

It's so disappointing in so many ways - it's like the devs tried copying Doom without knowing what made Doom so fun to play.

 

• Weapons are underpowered, ammo is scarce, and the sound design is the polar opposite of 'punchy'.

 

• Levels are symmetrical, and filled with way too many monsters for the flimsy weapons you have. Textures are reused far too often, resulting in additional confusion while navigating. Many lack any kind of climax.

 

• Enemies are confusing (ghost variants, projectile variants), and have way too much health.

 

The worst thing is that it could've worked really well - there's bits and pieces of a really cool game in there (I LOVE when you get a new weapon and Corvus does his evil little laugh). Does anyone else feel this way? Or am I just a complete grouch that needs to learn to have some fun...

But there was that one time when I fired an Ethereal Arrow at a mummy on ledge on the other side of the area that was so perfect that it exploded into gibs, flew off the platform right into the camera. It flew miles. And that alone means Heretic..  is excellent.

 

But yes, monsters are very tough in this game. I still love it to Hell though.

[Super Mighty G]

Heretic's biggest problem is the enemies are too spongy. And since there is no SSG equivalent the crossbow cannot compensate. Also there no BFG equivalent to mass clear enemies so the hordes overwhelm you.

[seed]

And the enemies are also slower, so most of the time the combat gets stale instead of becoming more dynamic and exciting.

 

But indeed, enemies having too much health is by far its biggest issue, and while sure, the game has Tomes, you don't always have one, and they don't last for long, so you can't rely on them to keep the fun going.

[idbeholdME]

I really don't understand where all the complaints about spongy enemies are coming from. The toughest regular monster, the Weredragon, has 220 HP. Ophidians have 280 but they appear only from E3 onwards. Mana is omnipresent, Tome of Power is total overkill in 99% of cases and I've been using them mostly only because they don't transfer between levels if you have more than 1. Phoenix Rod can one shot most enemies, 2 shot at worst. Tomed Firemace instagibs. Crossbow is enough for like 70% of the game.

 

Monsters in Doom regularly have several times more than that. 400+ HP being nothing rare.

[Yumheart]

I do really enjoy Heretic on Black Plaque. I can only play the first episode though, cause there's still no fucking way to buy it in Germany.

Same problem with Hexen, Hexen II and Postal 2. Christ!

[xdarkmasterx]

1 hour ago, idbeholdME said:

I really don't understand where all the complaints about spongy enemies are coming from.

 

Same here. I played through the game a couple of months ago and didn't find it took any longer to kill things than it did in Doom. In fact, it felt like encounters went by even faster in some ways, thanks to the time bombs and other items.

[Cruduxy Pegg]

Been thinking about this and I think my conclusion is this is actually more an issue with the game going the stupid way with becoming "harder" on UV. You have to fight a FUCKTON of trash body fodder monsters on UV compared to HMP. 99% of the time with no actual change in difficulty at all [or in e4m1\e5m1, you might run out of ammo. 2 maps of the entire game]. They also add the pointless iron liches with no way to hit you on exits on e3, which I can see being annoying in the otherwise best episode. (Time to save some phoenix ammo for Jeff on each exit zzz)

[Noiser]

17 hours ago, xdarkmasterx said:

Same here. I played through the game a couple of months ago and didn't find it took any longer to kill things than it did in Doom. In fact, it felt like encounters went by even faster in some ways, thanks to the time bombs and other items.

Yep, that's my impression as well.

[Koff3Katt]

Ugly nasty bump, another thing I didn't notice come up here was the Morph Ovum. A handy item that turns all but the three boss enemies (including ghosts) into chickens that die in two wand shots max. Helpful if you want to clear a good portion of a room of "tanky" enemies.

[Somniac]

I really think of Heretic as a trial run for Hexen. I love them both and they both have their faults. With Hexen they refined the formula and expanded on it, creating a deeper, more believable and more immersive world - with a side of annoying cryptic switch hunting obviously. Hexen is a dark game, and its rarely "fun", but it works well for me. Heretic is a lot more simplistic and cartoonishly sinister in comparison, but it embraces those qualities and features some banging music to boot. Still, I won't lie, when I played Curse of D'sparil I felt like I was really playing Heretic for the first time. 

[Wagi]

I'll chime in and play devil's advocate here and say that one thing Heretic did a lot better than Doom is interesting enemy attack patterns for bosses. The bosses in Doom simply wander around and fire the same mint ice cream ball/rockets/bullet at you over and over again. The Iron Lich fires a tornado around that chases you and disrupts your movement, an ice ball that splits out when it hits a wall, or a column of fire. The maulotar can charge at you and stun you, smack you with a hammer, create a wide column of fire or a snake of fire that will instakill you if you touch it. D'sparil can teleport around the map and summon minions.

 

One thing that is really disappointing though, almost every single enemy projectile makes no sound when it hits a wall, making them all seem inconsequential. It almost makes it seem like the game was unfinished.

[Gez]

Heretic could have benefited from a little bit more variety (more texture themes, perhaps two or three more monsters to fill niches the game lacks) and from less spongy low-tier enemies (gargoyles, mummies, undead knights, and sabreclaws) but it's a pretty fun game. Learn to use the timebombs, think of them as an extra weapon.

[Azuris]

I would add more Ammo/Weapons.

Got the Game two Weeks ago at Gog and never played it before, so i've got through Episode 1 Singleplayer, what was ok.

But i also played a couple of Times online on different Episodes and having a "Pistol Start" is quite difficult on some Maps (not all) because you just don't have the higher Weapons or don't find enough Ammo.

You really have to overthink when you use a Weapon, but because you get out of Ammo with the Crossbow, you end up using good Weapons against Gargoyles and Golems.

 

So yes, just a bit more Ammo and Weapons here and there :)

 

[Sotenga]

Heretic has its ups and downs compared to Doom. On the upside, no weapon becomes fully obsolete due to each one having its own ammo type, and having an inventory allows you to be more strategic with your power-ups. On the downside, level designs do tend to run together, and this game's closest analogues to Cacodemons and Barons of Hell (Disciples of D'Sparil and Iron Liches) are terrible bastards with which to deal. I can't say it surpasses Doom but I find it interesting how it does its own similar-but-different thing. I really have to get on playing more Heretic wads beyond the original, though!

[Cruduxy Pegg]

Hey it isn't my fault my tornado got you stuck in a ceiling while I breathe fire all over you.

[Rytrik]

On 10/31/2020 at 12:19 AM, Fonze said:

Another point wrt the balancing of the two games: in doom, once you get past the cg, all the weapons are basically power weapons. That's a rl, pg, bfg, (and ssg in doom 2) and you get tons of ammo for all of these throughout the game. How long does it take to get a power weapon with plenty of ammo to play with in any of the doom episodes, or in doom 2 (doom 2 literally gives everything minus the bfg by map02) as compared to heretic? In heretic while the pr and hs are certainly power weapons, you don't get them for a long time and the ammo counts you get for them are not exactly what could be called "abundant;" additionally the firemace is a glorified cg-replacement and nowhere near the OP nature of its doom counterpart, the bfg.

 

I thought Plasma Gun was first given in Doom 2 Map 5. Have I been missing it in levels before that?

[Andromeda]

14 minutes ago, Rytrik said:

I thought Plasma Gun was first given in Doom 2 Map 5. Have I been missing it in levels before that?

No, you're right.

[Argenteo]

 

On 1/4/2021 at 5:33 PM, Pegg said:

Hey it isn't my fault my tornado got you stuck in a ceiling while I breathe fire all over you.

 

The Shadowsphere laughs at the tornado...and the flying axes.

[CivilianM91]

This thread inspired me to finally take the plunge and buy the series on steam. Dirt cheap, I may add. Interested in seeing what the hubbub is about.

[_bruce_]

I tried it back then disliked it quickly - made me appreciate Doom that much more though.

Not my kind of game but the "bodybuilding-mummy" was a damn cool enemy.